If Ukraine Wins, Who Loses?

 

There’s the obvious answers – Putin, the image of Russian might, the Duginist dream of solidifying Russian control over its insolent children. 

Who else? The Russian Orthodox Church, for declaring this a holy war? Xi, for his association with a loser whose actions renewed Taiwanese determination to stave off an invasion? The countries that have been buying Russian military gear and now have a rep, however justified, for buying junk? US pundits who backed Russia’s invasion? Renewable energy advocates, suddenly on the back foot because nuclear is a better option than Russian gas? US intelligence agencies that failed to figure out how the Russian forces are ancient and hollowed out by corruption?

You could also note who else wins: the West, for one. Superior armaments and tech, better logistics, the products of a more energetic and innovative culture. I suspect there’s a non-insubstantial intersection between those who are comfy with Russian control of Ukraine and those who would be irritated by a Western win, because the West is decadent and subject to rule from our Davos overlords, and ought not to prevail until it is overhauled and remade. 

This is not a thread about whether Ukraine will win, or what victory looks like. Just a question about what shakes out when it is apparent to all that Russia could not prevail. 

Published in General
This post was promoted to the Main Feed by a Ricochet Editor at the recommendation of Ricochet members. Like this post? Want to comment? Join Ricochet’s community of conservatives and be part of the conversation. Join Ricochet for Free.

There are 1265 comments.

Become a member to join the conversation. Or sign in if you're already a member.
  1. Raxxalan Member
    Raxxalan
    @Raxxalan

    kedavis (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Australia has an election Saturday, which is today (in Australia). The right of center government might be deposed.

    That would seem to mean “Well, so much for Australia!”

    Well they have had a pretty authoritarian response to CoVID.  Maybe this is the backlash against that?

    • #1201
  2. Raxxalan Member
    Raxxalan
    @Raxxalan

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Raxxalan (View Comment):
    Turkey is still nominally a democracy as is Egypt.

    I think it’s unfair to put Turkey in with Egypt (which is a democracy in name only).

    Turkey is under strain – but Imamoglu did (eventually) win Istanbul, despite Government interference. And with a bigger majority the second time than the first time. That tells you what the voters in Turkey think about interfering with their democracy – as did their response to the attempted coup against Erdogan.

    That is fair it is very hard to judge where countries are on the scale of democracy.  As I said both Canada and the US have adopted some pretty authoritarian policies lately.  Those use to be among the gold standard on democratic norms.  

    My broader point was a truly democratic Turkey or Egypt could easily get to a point where they felt it necessary to go to war with a democratic Israel.  Thus undermining the whole democracies don’t go to war with each other narrative.

    • #1202
  3. Raxxalan Member
    Raxxalan
    @Raxxalan

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Raxxalan (View Comment):
    I also suspect that if Israel ceased to exist tomorrow there would still not be peace in the Middle East. In a certain sense the problem for the Palestinians is that the central contest in the Middle East currently isn’t about the Israeli/ Palestinian problem anymore.

    It’s never been.

    It is actually about the Iranians and Sunnis Arab states.

    No, it’s between the people and their unelected rulers (and the bargains those rulers make to stay in power).

    These tensions, which led to the Arab Spring (and then the Arab Winter), had nothing to do with Israel and the Palestinians.

    And that, imnsho, is why the Arab States’ Governments see Iran as such a threat but the Arab people do not.

    In that conflict Israel is an ally to the Sunnis, so the Palestinian problem is a unwelcome annoyance.

    For those unelected rulers? Absolutely. For the people? I am not so sure.

     

    Fair points.  Except I think the average Arab Sunni is probably distrustful of the Iranians.  The Sunni Shia divide is pretty ancient and bitter as is the Persian Arab divide.  I don’t think the average citizen of Saudi Arabia, Jordan, or Egypt is down with the Iranian cause.  The Palestinians are a different matter because  Iran is an ally against Israel.  I agree though the average citizen of a gulf state probably isn’t completely sanguine with an alliance with Israel, although maybe they are.  Quite frankly I think a citizen of the UAE would feel pretty comfortable in Tel Aviv.  Probably more comfortable than in Gaza.

    • #1203
  4. Raxxalan Member
    Raxxalan
    @Raxxalan

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Raxxalan (View Comment):
    I hope that happens. I don’t think Erdogan has been especially good for Turkey.

    It hurts me to say this, but I think Erdogan has been a mixed bag for Turkey. Personally I am a lot more sympatico with Kemalists, but honesty compels me to admit that they failed Turkey in some important ways – economic, political, social – and hence Erdogan (and the string of vaguely Islamist predecessors that the army kept deposing). You cannot force people to be genuinely secular, you can only force external compliance which undermines – by its nature – secularism.

    (It’s the same basic pattern that is unfolding now in India. At independence a secular elite made rules for a partly imaginary country and people – of course that didn’t work.)

    I am hopeful of this Imamoglu guy who won (twice) the Istanbul municipal elections.

     

    Erdogan certainly fought corruption early on in his administration.  He also managed to preside over a fairly decent economy.  It has gone on too long though I think for most Turks.  Secularism is an interesting thing.  I can see more conservative Turks thinking that some return to traditional religious norms would be a good thing, but being uncomfortable when it went to far.  It turns out I think most democracies want a pretty Goldilocks balance between secularism and religious traditions.  I am not sure how easy that balance is to achieve.

    • #1204
  5. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    The AKP has been in power since 2002.  It’s been corrupted by power, imho, as has Erdogan.

    But more fundamentally, it’s a victim of its own success.  It is without question that the AKP opened public space to more traditional Turks (especially women) – spaces like Universities – and that this resulted in more participation by those Turks in education and the economy.

    It’s in a similar position to Iran. It empowered all those women, and now there’s a generation of empowered women that it has to please.  It changed the people, but the party didn’t change alongside them.

    • #1205
  6. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    I could see a Middle East democracy getting into a war with Israel fairly easily.

    Which Middle East democracy are you talking about? I think there are only two. Israel and Iraq.

    Also how do you score Lebanon? Gaza? or the PA?

    I forgot about Lebanon, but those other two are definitely not.  Not even close.

    • #1206
  7. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Australia has an election Saturday, which is today (in Australia). The right of center government might be deposed.

    They are right of center?  Could have fooled me.

    • #1207
  8. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Australia has an election Saturday, which is today (in Australia). The right of center government might be deposed.

    They are right of center? Could have fooled me.

    Probably fooled a lot of Australians, too.

    • #1208
  9. HeavyWater Reagan
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

     

    My broader point was a truly democratic Turkey or Egypt could easily get to a point where they felt it necessary to go to war with a democratic Israel. Thus undermining the whole democracies don’t go to war with each other narrative.

    If the argument is that democracies never go to war with each other, I think you are correct.  If the argument is that democracies rarely go to war with each other, then the argument seems to have validity. 

    I also think that if a democracy is very young, as in the case when the Muslim Brotherhood won the election in Egypt in 2012, the chances of a democracy going to war with another democracy is much higher than would be the case where a country has been democratic for over a generation.  

    A slightly different topic:

    Even though many Americans now view the Iraq war as a mistake, the democracy that the United States help set up in Iraq following the US led invasion of that country has not, so far, engaged in anything like the Iran vs Iraq war or the Iraq war against Kuwait. 

     

    • #1209
  10. HeavyWater Reagan
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    Senator Ted Cruz Delivers Floor Speech Explaining American National Security Reasons for Supporting Ukraine 

    The Senate voted 86 to 11 to approve aid to Ukraine on Thursday.

    • #1210
  11. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    A slightly different topic:

    Even though many Americans now view the Iraq war as a mistake, the democracy that the United States help set up in Iraq following the US led invasion of that country has not, so far, engaged in anything like the Iran vs Iraq war or the Iraq war against Kuwait.

    A lot of people are not aware that Iraq is still a democracy.  Even many conservatives on this site will use them as the example that “you can’t force democracy on other people.”   They only remained in the news so long as there was an insurgency or terrorism attacks.  Democracy gets a big “Ho Hum” from the news media.  Though from what I read anecdotally it is a very corrupt democracy.

    • #1211
  12. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    A slightly different topic:

    Even though many Americans now view the Iraq war as a mistake, the democracy that the United States help set up in Iraq following the US led invasion of that country has not, so far, engaged in anything like the Iran vs Iraq war or the Iraq war against Kuwait.

    A lot of people are not aware that Iraq is still a democracy. Even many conservatives on this site will use them as the example that “you can’t force democracy on other people.” They only remained in the news so long as there was an insurgency or terrorism attacks. Democracy gets a big “Ho Hum” from the news media. Though from what I read anecdotally it is a very corrupt democracy.

    So they ARE just like us!  :-)

    • #1212
  13. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Dated but interesting:

    https://www.businessinsider.com/heres-what-life-in-iraq-was-like-under-saddam-hussein-2014-7?amp

    • #1213
  14. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    A slightly different topic:

    Even though many Americans now view the Iraq war as a mistake, the democracy that the United States help set up in Iraq following the US led invasion of that country has not, so far, engaged in anything like the Iran vs Iraq war or the Iraq war against Kuwait.

    A lot of people are not aware that Iraq is still a democracy. Even many conservatives on this site will use them as the example that “you can’t force democracy on other people.” They only remained in the news so long as there was an insurgency or terrorism attacks. Democracy gets a big “Ho Hum” from the news media. Though from what I read anecdotally it is a very corrupt democracy.

    So they ARE just like us! :-)

    Yes, the spitting image. 

    • #1214
  15. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Dated but interesting:

    https://www.businessinsider.com/heres-what-life-in-iraq-was-like-under-saddam-hussein-2014-7?amp

    This guy’s story is very interesting and maybe he was better off individually during Saddam’s reign.  However, my 1st cousin went into Iraq on the first day of the War in 2003 with the 101st Airborne Division, and did three tours of duty over the next ten years, one of them in Mosul.  I used to talk to him over the phone in Iraq and the most surprising thing he told me is that the Iraqi people just love Americans and especially George Bush, for liberating them.  This is in direct contradiction to what the news media were trying to tell us 24/7.  My cousin said Iraqis did not like the British nor Tony Blair because of historical reasons (Britain occupied and administered Iraq after world War I).

    I once saw a documentary on Iraq done by a low-budget outfit that took a few cameras into the country shortly after the second Gulf War was over.  Its subject was not political but there was one scene where an Iraqi man invited the cameraman into his home.  The cameraman videoed the guys living room and was struck by a framed photograph of George Bush hanging over his mantle place (or whatever you call it.  It was in a prominent position).  When asked “What is this?” the Iraqi man grew reverential and said “I love this man like my own father.  I respect him every bit as much.”  And the guy was practically tearing up with sentiment.  The stunned cameraman just said “Oh” or something like that.

    • #1215
  16. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Apparently many Polish families have similar displays of a Reagan photo.

    • #1216
  17. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Dated but interesting:

    https://www.businessinsider.com/heres-what-life-in-iraq-was-like-under-saddam-hussein-2014-7?amp

    This guy’s story is very interesting and maybe he was better off individually during Saddam’s reign.

    Also he’s Sunni.  I imagine opinions vary by Sunni/Shia/Kurd/Christian sect/Yazidis as well as by individual.

    However, my 1st cousin went into Iraq on the first day of the War in 2003 with the 101st Airborne Division, and did three tours of duty over the next ten years, one of them in Mosul. I used to talk to him over the phone in Iraq and the most surprising thing he told me is that the Iraqi people just love Americans and especially George Bush, for liberating them. This is in direct contradiction to what the news media were trying to tell us 24/7. My cousin said Iraqis did not like the British nor Tony Blair because of historical reasons (Britain occupied and administered Iraq after world War I).

    That is certainly surprising.  Do you think, given the insurgencies, that some Iraqis at least didn’t feel that way?  I’m not discounting your cousin’s experiences at all – but just saying that people who come up and speak to American soldiers (in English?) without asking for something are a self selecting sample that may not be typical?

    …The cameraman videoed the guys living room and was struck by a framed photograph of George Bush hanging over his mantle place (or whatever you call it. It was in a prominent position). When asked “What is this?” the Iraqi man grew reverential and said “I love this man like my own father. I respect him every bit as much.” And the guy was practically tearing up with sentiment. The stunned cameraman just said “Oh” or something like that.

    That is also surprising.  Especially as it was probably dangerous to have a picture of Bush up like that before Saddam was overthrown.

    A girl I was with in High School married and Iraqi that she met while in college in Delhi, and moved to Baghdad.  In 1993 she went to the Indian Embassy and asked for advice about staying or returning to India – and they said that if she left it would be very hard to return, so she stayed on.  Unfortunately the sanctions got her – she got cancer and it wasn’t possible to get the meds she needed for treatment – a sad story.

    My cousin was working in Kuwait in 1993, like a lot of Indians – eventually the Indian Govt sent ships to evacuate them, and conditions on the docks where they were waiting were bad – running out of water etc.  But my cousin, who is an enterprising type, loaded his family and electrical goods into a car and drove up to Baghdad – selling TVs for petrol and food along the way – and was able to fly home from there.

    • #1217
  18. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Dated but interesting:

    https://www.businessinsider.com/heres-what-life-in-iraq-was-like-under-saddam-hussein-2014-7?amp

    This guy’s story is very interesting and maybe he was better off individually during Saddam’s reign.

    Also he’s Sunni. I imagine opinions vary by Sunni/Shia/Kurd/Christian sect/Yazidis as well as by individual.

    However, my 1st cousin went into Iraq on the first day of the War in 2003 with the 101st Airborne Division, and did three tours of duty over the next ten years, one of them in Mosul. I used to talk to him over the phone in Iraq and the most surprising thing he told me is that the Iraqi people just love Americans and especially George Bush, for liberating them. This is in direct contradiction to what the news media were trying to tell us 24/7. My cousin said Iraqis did not like the British nor Tony Blair because of historical reasons (Britain occupied and administered Iraq after world War I).

    That is certainly surprising. Do you think, given the insurgencies, that some Iraqis at least didn’t feel that way? I’m not discounting your cousin’s experiences at all – but just saying that people who come up and speak to American soldiers (in English?) without asking for something are a self selecting sample that may not be typical?

    Yes, certainly not all Iraqis felt that way,  The Insurgency proves it.  But I think that is what happens when any dictatorship is overthrown.  There are many people who were invested in the dictatorship ruling class, not just the dictator himself.  Germany had an insurgency going against American troops during the occupation after world War II.  I think they even had a name for the insurgents, “Wolf Hounds” or something like that.  No country is monolithic in their allegiances or beliefs of individuals.  From what I hear there are still supporters in Russia of Joseph Stalin, the 3rd greatest mass murderer in history (of his own people).   When he died in the 1950’s there were many people genuinely crying over his demise.

     

    • #1218
  19. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    …The cameraman videoed the guys living room and was struck by a framed photograph of George Bush hanging over his mantle place (or whatever you call it. It was in a prominent position). When asked “What is this?” the Iraqi man grew reverential and said “I love this man like my own father. I respect him every bit as much.” And the guy was practically tearing up with sentiment. The stunned cameraman just said “Oh” or something like that.

    That is also surprising. Especially as it was probably dangerous to have a picture of Bush up like that before Saddam was overthrown.

    This was after Saddam was overthrown.  If it had been found out under Saddam, the guy would have been fed into a paper shredder.

    A girl I was with in High School married and Iraqi that she met while in college in Delhi, and moved to Baghdad. In 1993 she went to the Indian Embassy and asked for advice about staying or returning to India – and they said that if she left it would be very hard to return, so she stayed on. Unfortunately the sanctions got her – she got cancer and it wasn’t possible to get the meds she needed for treatment – a sad story.

    My cousin was working in Kuwait in 1993, like a lot of Indians – eventually the Indian Govt sent ships to evacuate them, and conditions on the docks where they were waiting were bad – running out of water etc. But my cousin, who is an enterprising type, loaded his family and electrical goods into a car and drove up to Baghdad – selling TVs for petrol and food along the way – and was able to fly home from there.

    I dated a woman from Kuwait for a year who fled after the first Gulf war.  I learned all sorts of stuff about the Arab world from her.  I even speak and read a little Arabic.  Interesting fact that your cousin probably knows – unlike America and most Western countries that have a “minimum wage,” Kuwait has a “maximum wage.”  It is aimed at all the imported workers from other countries so they can keep the flow of menial labor on the cheap.

     

    • #1219
  20. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    This was after Saddam was overthrown.  If it had been found out under Saddam, the guy would have been fed into a paper shredder.

    Is it sceptical of me to suspect he had a Saddam photo up there before?

    I dated a woman from Kuwait for a year who fled after the first Gulf war.  I learned all sorts of stuff about the Arab world from her.  I even speak and read a little Arabic.

    Ahlain, ya Steven!

    Interesting fact that your cousin probably knows – unlike America and most Western countries that have a “minimum wage,” Kuwait has a “maximum wage.”  It is aimed at all the imported workers from other countries so they can keep the flow of menial labor on the cheap.

    I had no idea about that.  My cousin lives in Dubai, which would probably have the same motivation – but they seem to rely on a strict work permit system (kafala) and general desperation in the Global South to keep wages as low as they can over there.

    • #1220
  21. DaveSchmidt Coolidge
    DaveSchmidt
    @DaveSchmidt

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Raxxalan (View Comment):
    Turkey is still nominally a democracy as is Egypt.

    I think it’s unfair to put Turkey in with Egypt (which is a democracy in name only).

    Turkey is under strain – but Imamoglu did (eventually) win Istanbul, despite Government interference. And with a bigger majority the second time than the first time. That tells you what the voters in Turkey think about interfering with their democracy – as did their response to the attempted coup against Erdogan.

    Sounds like Imamoglu and Trump have some similarities. 

    • #1221
  22. Stina Member
    Stina
    @CM

    Corrupt democracy is not democracy.

    • #1222
  23. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    Stina (View Comment):

    Corrupt democracy is not democracy.

    Well then there must not be such a thing as democracy at all if it has to be perfect.

    • #1223
  24. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Stina (View Comment):

    Corrupt democracy is not democracy.

    To some people it isn’t democracy unless it is socialist.

    To some people it isn’t democracy unless equality of outcomes is enforced by a totalitarian dictatorship. 

     

    • #1224
  25. Stina Member
    Stina
    @CM

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    Corrupt democracy is not democracy.

    To some people it isn’t democracy unless it is socialist.

    To some people it isn’t democracy unless equality of outcomes is enforced by a totalitarian dictatorship.

     

    I have been saying that we have our own problems we need to address.

    • #1225
  26. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Stina (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    Corrupt democracy is not democracy.

    To some people it isn’t democracy unless it is socialist.

    To some people it isn’t democracy unless equality of outcomes is enforced by a totalitarian dictatorship.

    I have been saying that we have our own problems we need to address.

    On the plus side, most of our problems don’t require spending a lot of money to fix them.

    In fact, most of our problems would benefit from spending LESS money on them.

    • #1226
  27. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    Corrupt democracy is not democracy.

    To some people it isn’t democracy unless it is socialist.

    To some people it isn’t democracy unless equality of outcomes is enforced by a totalitarian dictatorship.

     

    I have been saying that we have our own problems we need to address.

    On the plus side, most of our problems don’t require spending a lot of money to fix them.

    Most of them require less spending in order to fix them. 

    • #1227
  28. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    Corrupt democracy is not democracy.

    To some people it isn’t democracy unless it is socialist.

    To some people it isn’t democracy unless equality of outcomes is enforced by a totalitarian dictatorship.

     

    I have been saying that we have our own problems we need to address.

    On the plus side, most of our problems don’t require spending a lot of money to fix them.

    Most of them require less spending in order to fix them.

    ETA already, before I saw this.

    • #1228
  29. MiMac Thatcher
    MiMac
    @MiMac

    Stina (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    Corrupt democracy is not democracy.

    To some people it isn’t democracy unless it is socialist.

    To some people it isn’t democracy unless equality of outcomes is enforced by a totalitarian dictatorship.

    I have been saying that we have our own problems we need to address.

    1) we can fix our problems and assist Ukraine- it isn’t an either/or situation.

    2)of course we have corruption- any sizable human enterprise will. But using the Cesar’s wife criteria before helping any nation will only cause more problems- perfect is the enemy of the good.

    3) Our situation is mirrored by that of the late 70s- we are faced by a rival who is vastly expanding their military while we argue over trivial expenses ($40B is a rounding error for our government- last year we spent almost $7T). At that time, many who decried defense waste caused severe problems in our armed forces b/c they used arguments for money saving as a cudgel to drive down defense spending- but were more than willing to increase non defense spending . Of course we need to monitor for mismanagement and corruption- but we also need to increase our military and aide our allies. A well known book from the early 80s- “Why we need more waste, fraud and mismanagement in the Pentagon” by Luttwak  pointed out the folly of trying to totally eliminate waste and “cut out the fat” – b/c typically we mostly cut out the muscle.

    4) Russia is a Chinese ally and preventing them from swallowing Ukraine and significantly degrading their military is a worthwhile national security objective.  If the present tends continue, it is very unlikely the Russian military  will be of much assistance to China for years after this war. Allowing Putin to achieve even a partial success in Ukraine will just mean he will be back in a few years to try to take the rest.

    • #1229
  30. Stina Member
    Stina
    @CM

    MiMac (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    Corrupt democracy is not democracy.

    To some people it isn’t democracy unless it is socialist.

    To some people it isn’t democracy unless equality of outcomes is enforced by a totalitarian dictatorship.

    I have been saying that we have our own problems we need to address.

    1) we can fix our problems and assist Ukraine- it isn’t an either/or situation.

    2)of course we have corruption- any sizable human enterprise will. But using the Cesar’s wife criteria before helping any nation will only cause more problems- perfect is the enemy of the good.

    3) Our situation is mirrored by that of the late 70s- we are faced by a rival who is vastly expanding their military while we argue over trivial expenses ($40B is a rounding error for our government- last year we spent almost $7T). At that time, many who decried defense waste caused severe problems in our armed forces b/c they used arguments for money saving as a cudgel to drive down defense spending- but were more than willing to increase non defense spending . Of course we need to monitor for mismanagement and corruption- but we also need to increase our military and aide our allies. A well known book from the early 80s- “Why we need more waste, fraud and mismanagement in the Pentagon” by Luttwak pointed out the folly of trying to totally eliminate waste and “cut out the fat” – b/c typically we mostly cut out the muscle.

    4) Russia is a Chinese ally and preventing them from swallowing Ukraine and significantly degrading their military is a worthwhile national security objective. If the present tends continue, it is very unlikely the Russian military will be of much assistance to China for years after this war. Allowing Putin to achieve even a partial success in Ukraine will just mean he will be back in a few years to try to take the rest.

    It has not been demonstrated we are capable of walking, let alone walking and chewing gum at the same time. Perhaps we should work on walking before we try chewing gum AND walking?

    • #1230
Become a member to join the conversation. Or sign in if you're already a member.