Russia’s Plan for Ukraine? Genocide

 

Russia has dropped the maskirovka about its goals in the “Special Operation” in Ukraine.  RIA Novosty, a Russian Federation state-owned domestic news agency recently published an article that outlines the real goals of their invasion. It’s as if Goebbels had published a synopsis of the Wannsee Conference in the Völkischer Beobachter.

From Putin’s initial lie that the “special Operation” was aimed at liberating the Ukrainian population from its evil Nazi government, the article expands the aim of exterminating Ukrainian nationhood. Forever. What follows are some of the highlights of the article.

You can read the entire article, rescued by the Wayback Machine, here.

The operation to de-nazify Ukraine, which has started with a military phase, will follow in peacetime the same logic of progression as the military operation. With each step, it will be necessary to succeed in implementing irreversible changes, which would become the building blocks of the following step. For this, the necessary first steps of de-nazification can be defined the following way:

•     The liquidation of armed Nazi formation (which is understood to include any Ukrainian armed formations, including the Armed Forces of Ukraine), as well as anything that assists in their military, informational, and educational infrastructure

•      The creation of bodies for popular self-rule, as well as law enforcement (both for security and law and order) on liberated territory, to protective people from terrorist acts of insurgent Nazi groups

•     The implementation of the Russian information space

•     The seizure of any educational materials, and a band on educational programs, at all levels, that contain Nazi ideological attitudes

•     Mass investigations to establish personal accountability for war crimes, crimes against humanity, spreading of Nazi ideology and supporting the Nazi regime

•     Lustration, publicizing the names of the accomplices of the Nazi regime, engaging them in forced labor to repair destroyed infrastructure as part of their punishment for Nazi activities (for those that wouldn’t be sentenced to death or imprisonment)

•     The adoption, at a local level, under Russian advisement, primary normative acts of “grassroots” de-nazification, a ban on all types and forms of reviving Nazi ideology

•     The creation of memorials, commemorative signs, and monuments to the victims of Ukrainian Nazism, and the immortalization of the memory of the heroes that fought against it

•     The creation and adoption of a series of anti-fascist and de-nazificative norms in the constitutions of these new people’s republics

•     The creation of a constantly operating body of de-nazification, for a period of 25 years

Russia will have no compatriots in its de-nazification of Ukraine, seeing as this is purely Russian work, as well as considering that it is not just the Banderite version of Nazi Ukraine that will be eradicated, but also and most of all, Western totalitarianism, the forced programs of civilizational degradation and ruin, the mechanisms of subjugation to the superpower of the West and the USA.

In order to realize the plan of Ukrainian de-nazification, Russian life itself will have to finally rid itself of its pro-European and pro-Western illusions, and accept itself as the last line of defense, and the preserver of, those values of historic Europe (the Old World), which it deserves, and from which the West has ultimately abandoned, losing in a war against itself.

But wait there is more.

De-nazification is necessary when a sizable part of the population – most likely, the majority – has mastered and drawn in the Nazi regime into its politics.

That is, when the theory “the people are good, the government is bad” no longer holds true.

Get that?  The majority of Ukrainians are hopelessly Nazi. And Nazis cannot live.

War criminals and active Nazis have to made an example of. There has to be a total lustration – the liquidation and ban of any organizations that ties themselves to the practice of Nazism. However, aside from the leadership, a good part of the population is also responsible here, who are themselves passive Nazis, accomplices to Nazism.

They supported the Nazi government, and indulged it.

A just punishment for this part of the population can only be found in the burden of the hardships of a just war against the Nazi system,

Denazification can only be conducted by the victor, which assumes 1) its unconditional control over the de-nazification process, and 2) an authority that can facilitate this control. In this respect, a country undergoing de-nazification cannot be sovereign. The de-nazification-leading government – Russia – cannot proceed from a liberal approach regarding denazification.

The ideology of the de-nazifying party cannot be disputed by the guilty party, subjected to de-nazification. Russia’s call for the necessity of de-nazification means that the Crimean scenario cannot work for Ukraine as whole. In fact, this scenario was already unrealistic in 2014, and in the rebellious Donbas.

The Nazification of Ukraine took more than 30 years – starting at a minimum in 1989, when Ukrainian nationalism receive a legal and legitimate form of political self-expression and spearheaded the movement for “independence”, leaning towards Nazism.

A particular feature of Nazified Ukraine is its amorphousness and ambivalentness, which allows for the masking of Nazism as a desire to move towards an “independent” and “European” (Western and pro-American) path of development, (in reality – towards degradation), while insisting that Ukraine “doesn’t have any Nazism, only private and singular excesses.”

An independent Ukraine, that wants to be part of the West, cannot be permitted to exist.

The name “Ukraine,” seemingly, cannot be retained as the title of any fully denazified state entity in a territory liberated from the Nazi regime. The people’s republics, newly created in the space free from Nazism, should and will grow from the practice of economic self-government and social security, and the restoration and modernization of social support systems for the population.

Again, Ukraine cannot exist.

 De-nazification will inevitably be expressed as de-Ukrainianization – the rejection of the artificially divided ethnic component of self-identification, created as far back as under Soviet authority, of the population of the historical territories of Malorossiya and Novorossiya.

Unlike, say, Georgia and the Baltic states, Ukraine, as history has shown, cannot exist in the form of a national government, and attempts to “build” it as such, naturally leads to Nazism. Ukrainianism is an artificial anti-Russian construct, which does not have any civilizational content of its own, and is a subordinate element of a foreign and alien civilization.

This part is particularly sweet.  The way you define a “Nazi” is anyone who wants to be Ukrainian.

De-nazification, as a goal of the special military operation, within the the scope of that operation, is understood as a military victory over the Kyiv regime, the liberation of the territory from armed Nazi supporters, the liquidation of irreconcilable Nazis, the capture of war criminals, as well as the creation of a system of conditions for the following peace-time de-nazification.

The latter, in turn, should begin with the organization of local self-government, law enforcement, and defense bodies, cleansed of Nazi elements. This can be used as the basis to launch the founding processes of a new republican statehood, integrating this statehood into close cooperation with the Russian department for Ukrainian de-nazification (newly created or converted, say, from Rossotrudnichestvo). This, along with the adoption, under Russian control, of a republican regulatory framework (legislation) on de-nazification, the definition of the boundaries and framework for the direct application of Russian law and Russian jurisdiction in the liberated territories in the field of de-nazification, and the creation of a tribunal for crimes against humanity in the former Ukraine. In this regard, Russia should act as the guardian of the Nuremberg Trials.

The plan is to destroy Ukraine as a political entity, to cleanse the land of anyone who longs for independence or even a national identity. To Russia, Ukraine has never existed and is only a part of Mother Russia that must be returned to its status as “Malorus” (Little Russia).  Ukrainian culture will be illegal.  The language will be suppressed. Publishing in Ukrainian will be banned.  Because it’s Nazi.

This is not the first time Ukrainians have been the unwelcome recipients of Russia’s special love. Catherine the Great showed it. Multiple Tsars showed it. Stalin showed it. And Ukraine survived them all. I have no doubt Putler will fail as well, but not before causing immense death and destruction in his Genocide.

Published in Foreign Policy
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  1. Hang On Member
    Hang On
    @HangOn

    The Reticulator (View Comment):
    ’s about the opposite of what we did.

    We didn’t have Nuremburg trials for the bigwigs? SS officers were kept jailed for a long time. The press was completely censored until 1949 in the de-Nazification program. The political parties that were organized were circumscribed to omit both communists and Nazis. The constitution had to be approved by the American, British and French military governments. Party leaders at the local level were purged and tried. There was initial talk of implementing the Morgenthau Plan, but it didn’t go through – largely as a result of needing the Germans to resist the Russians. The terms were very harsh until the Cold War started and the Berlin airlift. 

    • #61
  2. Hang On Member
    Hang On
    @HangOn

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Ekosj (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    To me, the description of this Russian program looks pretty similar to the way that we handled West Germany after WWII.

    I am skeptical of the claim (in this Russian source) that there are large numbers of Nazis in Ukraine. There do seem to be a troubling minority, and that minority seems to have received governmental support that also seems troubling. It’s probably complicated, though.

    I wouldn’t blame a Ukrainian for being a nationalist. That actually seems appropriate, to me. The challenge seems to be demographic complexity, with a mix of Ukrainian and Russian people, culture, and language (and some smaller groups, but these are the big two). I’m skeptical of the ability of such a multi-cultural state to hold together, particularly in the post-French Revolution age of nationalism.

    This is overlaid by a culturally assertive Western European influence moving into Ukraine, an influence that I find unappealing, with its focus on feminism and the whole homosexual and trans agenda. I could see why Russians would be unhappy about such a culture moving eastward.

    Regarding -“

    To me, the description of this Russian program looks pretty similar to the way that we handled West Germany after WWII.

    I am skeptical of the claim (in this Russian source) that there are large numbers of Nazis in Ukraine. ”

    it’s actually not at all like that. Because “Nazi“ is defined as anyone who identifies as either pro Western or as Ukrainian.

    “None so blind as those who will not see”

    Agreed. and you are the blind.

    • #62
  3. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    So they are going to line people up or just shell and bomb the cities?

     

    Apparently according to the information they are doing both, of course as always it is hard to determine the truth. It is undeniable that they are shelling/ have shelled Mariupol. Also the massacre in Bucha seems credible at this point. All war is ugly business but this definitely appears to be much uglier than most. We knew Putin was a thug and a murderer so that isn’t surprising. That it is widely part of the Russian invasion at this point doesn’t speak well of the Russian Army. Incidentally that article goes on to essentially link America and Western Europe to the Nazis in Ukraine, so basically that argues that any peace between NATO and Russia is instrumental as far as they are concerned. This is not the time to have such and incredibly weak hand on the tiller of the United States. The world is too deadly serious to keep indulging in western elite’s childish ideas any longer. We adults back in charge.

    So, they will go back and Shell Kiev then, or will the Genocide be just in places east?

     

    I am not sure anyone knows, this includes Putin. A lot depends on what he still has the military capability of accomplishing. Withdrawing to points east seems to have been a concession to the realities on the ground. Another consideration is what does the peace process look like. The things that have been revealed by the withdrawing Russian army are not likely to make that go smoother and may scuttle it all together. If Russia can regroup and Ukrainians are mad enough that they continue to fight, and I don’t really see how they could stop at this point. I expect they will be back to shelling or bombing Kiev.

    Putin has actually committed a error in this. He has put the Ukrainians on dying ground. I am not sure this was an good strategy. Makes me question the whole thing, but it appears to be legit and matches the facts that seem true.

    But for genocide,  he has to kill a lot more people. Sounds like carpet bombing to me.

    • #63
  4. Hang On Member
    Hang On
    @HangOn

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Ekosj (View Comment):
    I’ll concede a point regarding Russia and WW2. They did most of the heavy lifting against the Germans.

    You mean after they allied with Germany to carve up Poland?

    The fighting between the Nazi’s and Soviets was 2 equally vile totalitarian states in a death match. I don’t give Russia any credit for anything they did there. They would not have been in the position in the first place if they hadn’t worked hand in hand with Nazi Germany before the start of the war.

    Who were the Soviets going to work with to deflect the German advance towards their border? The French? The British? It was pretty clear, that neither was interested in halting a German advance towards Russia.

    • #64
  5. TheRightNurse Member
    TheRightNurse
    @TheRightNurse

    Huh.  Where’s that Anti-fa when you need them, huh?

    • #65
  6. Paul Stinchfield Member
    Paul Stinchfield
    @PaulStinchfield

    Hang On (View Comment):
    When I first went to the Soviet Union back in the 70s, I was struck by guys my age goose-stepping around at war memorials.

    It’s not just Nazis who goose-stepped. Lots of communist regimes’ armies did so–and still do.

    • #66
  7. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    Hang On (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):
    ’s about the opposite of what we did.

    We didn’t have Nuremburg trials for the bigwigs?

    The Russians are not holding trials.

    SS officers were kept jailed for a long time.

    I don’t think they’re jailing any Ukrainians either.

    The press was completely censored until 1949 in the de-Nazification program. The political parties that were organized were circumscribed to omit both communists and Nazis. The constitution had to be approved by the American, British and French military governments. Party leaders at the local level were purged and tried. There was initial talk of implementing the Morgenthau Plan, but it didn’t go through – largely as a result of needing the Germans to resist the Russians. The terms were very harsh until the Cold War started and the Berlin airlift.

    Oh  the horrors of the Allied rebuilding of Germany!

    • #67
  8. Kozak Member
    Kozak
    @Kozak

    Hang On (View Comment):

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Ekosj (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    To me, the description of this Russian program looks pretty similar to the way that we handled West Germany after WWII.

    I am skeptical of the claim (in this Russian source) that there are large numbers of Nazis in Ukraine. There do seem to be a troubling minority, and that minority seems to have received governmental support that also seems troubling. It’s probably complicated, though.

    I wouldn’t blame a Ukrainian for being a nationalist. That actually seems appropriate, to me. The challenge seems to be demographic complexity, with a mix of Ukrainian and Russian people, culture, and language (and some smaller groups, but these are the big two). I’m skeptical of the ability of such a multi-cultural state to hold together, particularly in the post-French Revolution age of nationalism.

    This is overlaid by a culturally assertive Western European influence moving into Ukraine, an influence that I find unappealing, with its focus on feminism and the whole homosexual and trans agenda. I could see why Russians would be unhappy about such a culture moving eastward.

    Regarding -“

    To me, the description of this Russian program looks pretty similar to the way that we handled West Germany after WWII.

    I am skeptical of the claim (in this Russian source) that there are large numbers of Nazis in Ukraine. ”

    it’s actually not at all like that. Because “Nazi“ is defined as anyone who identifies as either pro Western or as Ukrainian.

    “None so blind as those who will not see”

    Agreed. and you are the blind.

    My eyes are wide open.

    You can’t see beyond your nose.

    You keep making the idiot comparison between the Allied occupation of Germany, and what is published here as the plan for Ukraine.  Again, the allies did not plan or execute the elimination of Germany as a nation, or Germans as a people.   

    • #68
  9. Kozak Member
    Kozak
    @Kozak

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):
    When I first went to the Soviet Union back in the 70s, I was struck by guys my age goose-stepping around at war memorials.

    It’s not just Nazis who goose-stepped. Lots of communist regimes’ armies did so–and still do.

     

    Visit to East Berlin in 1976. Every day they would have a parade of goose stepping Folks Armee guards down  the Unter den Linden  to the War memorial just a few blocks from the Brandenburg Gate.

    • #69
  10. MWD B612 "Dawg" Member
    MWD B612 "Dawg"
    @danok1

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Ekosj (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    To me, the description of this Russian program looks pretty similar to the way that we handled West Germany after WWII.

    I am skeptical of the claim (in this Russian source) that there are large numbers of Nazis in Ukraine. There do seem to be a troubling minority, and that minority seems to have received governmental support that also seems troubling. It’s probably complicated, though.

    I wouldn’t blame a Ukrainian for being a nationalist. That actually seems appropriate, to me. The challenge seems to be demographic complexity, with a mix of Ukrainian and Russian people, culture, and language (and some smaller groups, but these are the big two). I’m skeptical of the ability of such a multi-cultural state to hold together, particularly in the post-French Revolution age of nationalism.

    This is overlaid by a culturally assertive Western European influence moving into Ukraine, an influence that I find unappealing, with its focus on feminism and the whole homosexual and trans agenda. I could see why Russians would be unhappy about such a culture moving eastward.

    Regarding -“

    To me, the description of this Russian program looks pretty similar to the way that we handled West Germany after WWII.

    I am skeptical of the claim (in this Russian source) that there are large numbers of Nazis in Ukraine. ”

    it’s actually not at all like that. Because “Nazi“ is defined as anyone who identifies as either pro Western or as Ukrainian.

    “None so blind as those who will not see”

    Agreed. and you are the blind.

    My eyes are wide open.

    You can’t see beyond your nose.

    You keep making the idiot comparison between the Allied occupation of Germany, and what is published here as the plan for Ukraine. Again, the allies did not plan or execute the elimination of Germany as a nation, or Germans as a people.

    Yeah, that would have been the Morgenthau Plan mentioned earlier, but the Allies chose not to use it.

    • #70
  11. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Hang On (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):
    ’s about the opposite of what we did.

    We didn’t have Nuremburg trials for the bigwigs? SS officers were kept jailed for a long time. The press was completely censored until 1949 in the de-Nazification program. The political parties that were organized were circumscribed to omit both communists and Nazis. The constitution had to be approved by the American, British and French military governments. Party leaders at the local level were purged and tried. There was initial talk of implementing the Morgenthau Plan, but it didn’t go through – largely as a result of needing the Germans to resist the Russians. The terms were very harsh until the Cold War started and the Berlin airlift.

    In other words, nothing like what Putin is doing to Ukraine.

    • #71
  12. W Bob Member
    W Bob
    @WBob

    The goose stepping thing always perplexed me. They did it long after goose stepping became the undeniable symbol of idiotic commie-fascist degeneracy. It’s like they were sitting around thinking, How can we look like the most idiotic piss-ants to the rest of the world? 

    And piss ants they are… in the words of George S. Patton, once again… [The Russians] have no regard for human life, and they are all out sons of bitches, barbarians, and chronic drunks. 

    • #72
  13. Manny Member
    Manny
    @Manny

    It is absolutely atrocious.  Putin, his generals, and even down to battalion commanders need to be held accountable.  This is of the lowest war crimes.  Justice needs to be upheld.  Sanctions cannot be removed until some sorted of justice is exacted.  

    • #73
  14. Raxxalan Member
    Raxxalan
    @Raxxalan

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    So they are going to line people up or just shell and bomb the cities?

     

    Apparently according to the information they are doing both, of course as always it is hard to determine the truth. It is undeniable that they are shelling/ have shelled Mariupol. Also the massacre in Bucha seems credible at this point. All war is ugly business but this definitely appears to be much uglier than most. We knew Putin was a thug and a murderer so that isn’t surprising. That it is widely part of the Russian invasion at this point doesn’t speak well of the Russian Army. Incidentally that article goes on to essentially link America and Western Europe to the Nazis in Ukraine, so basically that argues that any peace between NATO and Russia is instrumental as far as they are concerned. This is not the time to have such and incredibly weak hand on the tiller of the United States. The world is too deadly serious to keep indulging in western elite’s childish ideas any longer. We adults back in charge.

    So, they will go back and Shell Kiev then, or will the Genocide be just in places east?

     

    I am not sure anyone knows, this includes Putin. A lot depends on what he still has the military capability of accomplishing. Withdrawing to points east seems to have been a concession to the realities on the ground. Another consideration is what does the peace process look like. The things that have been revealed by the withdrawing Russian army are not likely to make that go smoother and may scuttle it all together. If Russia can regroup and Ukrainians are mad enough that they continue to fight, and I don’t really see how they could stop at this point. I expect they will be back to shelling or bombing Kiev.

    Putin has actually committed a error in this. He has put the Ukrainians on dying ground. I am not sure this was an good strategy. Makes me question the whole thing, but it appears to be legit and matches the facts that seem true.

    But for genocide, he has to kill a lot more people. Sounds like carpet bombing to me.

    The goals if the story is accurate are genocidal.  I am not sure how much blood must be spilled for a technical genocide.  I am hedging on this not because I think Putin is in the right or good, I don’t I think he is an evil [CoC Violation about his parentage redacted]  or because I think there is any real justification for the Russian invasion.  I am hedging because dealing in these kinds of explosive allegations deserve the utmost of care.

    • #74
  15. Raxxalan Member
    Raxxalan
    @Raxxalan

    Hang On (View Comment):

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Ekosj (View Comment):
    I’ll concede a point regarding Russia and WW2. They did most of the heavy lifting against the Germans.

    You mean after they allied with Germany to carve up Poland?

    The fighting between the Nazi’s and Soviets was 2 equally vile totalitarian states in a death match. I don’t give Russia any credit for anything they did there. They would not have been in the position in the first place if they hadn’t worked hand in hand with Nazi Germany before the start of the war.

    Who were the Soviets going to work with to deflect the German advance towards their border? The French? The British? It was pretty clear, that neither was interested in halting a German advance towards Russia.

    Why should they have been?  The French and British were Polish allies.  The Russians and German’s carved up Poland amongst themselves.  The French were defeated before Barbarossa and the Russians were happily neutral during the blitz.  The British and the Americans did eventually ally with the Russians but only after circumstances changed.  War makes strange bedfellows.  It is actually to America and UKs credit that they didn’t hold the Soviets responsible for their early collaboration with Germany.

    • #75
  16. Hartmann von Aue Member
    Hartmann von Aue
    @HartmannvonAue

    Hang On (View Comment):

    It’s what we did when we took over Germany in 1945 and continued to do until 1949.

    I missed the mass execution of former NSDAP members and ordinary soldiers. Somehow a guy named Helmut Schmidt escaped that. As did all of these guys,who went on to serve in the Bundestag, some of them for decades:

    Liste ehemaliger NSDAP-Mitglieder, die nach Mai 1945 politisch tätig waren – Wikipedia

     

    Because the scenario you describe, with the Allies including us acting in post-war Germany exactly like the Putinistas are acting now in eastern Ukraine and plan to do all over that nation if they still  can manage it,  didn’t happen.

    • #76
  17. The Cloaked Gaijin Member
    The Cloaked Gaijin
    @TheCloakedGaijin

    Russia’s Plan for Ukraine? Genocide

    I would say that Putin’s goal is destruction.

    People.

    Buildings.

    Economy.

    Property.

    Stability.

    I think his goal is to destroy whatever he can.  General terror.  If genocide gets mixed into the equation, I don’t know that he cares one way or the other, just as long as he does as much damage as possible.

    • #77
  18. Paul Stinchfield Member
    Paul Stinchfield
    @PaulStinchfield

    The Cloaked Gaijin (View Comment):
    I would say that Putin’s goal is destruction.

    How about, also, seizure of the mineral resources of Eastern Ukraine? (And meanwhile we have reports that Russian soldiers and officers are emulating Putin by engaging in more retail-scale looting.)

    • #78
  19. Paul Stinchfield Member
    Paul Stinchfield
    @PaulStinchfield

    Hang On (View Comment):

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Ekosj (View Comment):
    I’ll concede a point regarding Russia and WW2. They did most of the heavy lifting against the Germans.

    You mean after they allied with Germany to carve up Poland?

    The fighting between the Nazi’s and Soviets was 2 equally vile totalitarian states in a death match. I don’t give Russia any credit for anything they did there. They would not have been in the position in the first place if they hadn’t worked hand in hand with Nazi Germany before the start of the war.

    Who were the Soviets going to work with to deflect the German advance towards their border? The French? The British? It was pretty clear, that neither was interested in halting a German advance towards Russia.

    Are you really trying to portray the Soviets as innocent victims?

    • #79
  20. No Caesar Thatcher
    No Caesar
    @NoCaesar

    MarciN (View Comment):

    What the heck is “nazi” to Putin anyway? In Germany, it referred to card-carrying members of a political group that had political privileges in Germany.

    Is he referring to a belief system or an actual political party?

    @MarciN “Nazi” seems to have a particular resonance as the Great Enemy in Russia, thanks to “The Great Patriotic War”.  That, combined with Russia’s long and complicated relationship with the German nation(s), seems to be a key component of the Russian psyche.  Using it brings echoes of the Wehrmacht coming again from the West to rape and pillage Mother Russia.  Previously, their worst enemies came from the East or the South.

    Ironically, “Nazi” to Russians seems to have the same meaning as it does to the American Left.  It means something like: the absolute worst, a  ruthless, sub-human enemy of all that we cherish, who must be destroyed by any means possible.   It’s not about political or economic beliefs or policies.

    • #80
  21. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    So they are going to line people up or just shell and bomb the cities?

     

    Apparently according to the information they are doing both, of course as always it is hard to determine the truth. It is undeniable that they are shelling/ have shelled Mariupol. Also the massacre in Bucha seems credible at this point. All war is ugly business but this definitely appears to be much uglier than most. We knew Putin was a thug and a murderer so that isn’t surprising. That it is widely part of the Russian invasion at this point doesn’t speak well of the Russian Army. Incidentally that article goes on to essentially link America and Western Europe to the Nazis in Ukraine, so basically that argues that any peace between NATO and Russia is instrumental as far as they are concerned. This is not the time to have such and incredibly weak hand on the tiller of the United States. The world is too deadly serious to keep indulging in western elite’s childish ideas any longer. We adults back in charge.

    So, they will go back and Shell Kiev then, or will the Genocide be just in places east?

     

    I am not sure anyone knows, this includes Putin. A lot depends on what he still has the military capability of accomplishing. Withdrawing to points east seems to have been a concession to the realities on the ground. Another consideration is what does the peace process look like. The things that have been revealed by the withdrawing Russian army are not likely to make that go smoother and may scuttle it all together. If Russia can regroup and Ukrainians are mad enough that they continue to fight, and I don’t really see how they could stop at this point. I expect they will be back to shelling or bombing Kiev.

    Putin has actually committed a error in this. He has put the Ukrainians on dying ground. I am not sure this was an good strategy. Makes me question the whole thing, but it appears to be legit and matches the facts that seem true.

    But for genocide, he has to kill a lot more people. Sounds like carpet bombing to me.

    The goals if the story is accurate are genocidal. I am not sure how much blood must be spilled for a technical genocide. I am hedging on this not because I think Putin is in the right or good, I don’t I think he is an evil [CoC Violation about his parentage redacted] or because I think there is any real justification for the Russian invasion. I am hedging because dealing in these kinds of explosive allegations deserve the utmost of care.

    All I am asking is how will the genocide be carried out. 

    • #81
  22. No Caesar Thatcher
    No Caesar
    @NoCaesar

    I think VDH’s piece well-encapsulates the matter as it stands today:

    Can Ukraine Ever Win?

    There is as yet still no deterrent force that can stop Russia’s bombs and missiles and disrupt Vladimir Putin’s nihilist strategy.

    • #82
  23. Kozak Member
    Kozak
    @Kozak

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    All I am asking is how will the genocide be carried out. 

    Your definition of Genocide is too narrow. It’s not necessarily the murder of everyone in a group.  Although at this point Russia is busy on both the retail, shoot helpless civilians in their head, and wholesale, bomb helpless civilians where they can.  Not to mention their having caused about 10% of Ukrainians to become either internal, or external refugees.

    It’s an attempt to eliminate a group from existence.  That includes their nationality, culture and ethnic identity.  See definition #3  in my post.

    For example. Rome committed Genocide against Carthage.  The vast majority of Carthaginians were not killed. They were carried off into slavery. Their homeland was destroyed and turned into a Roman colony.    Carthage was erased from history.

    If you read the Russians plans for Ukraine thats essentially what they are proposing.

    Ukraine ceases to exist as an entity. Ukrainians are “returned” to their Russian “Motherland”.

    Any who disagree are Nazis and subject to elimination.

    Thats Genocide.

    • #83
  24. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Ekosj (View Comment):
    I’ll concede a point regarding Russia and WW2. They did most of the heavy lifting against the Germans.

    You mean after they allied with Germany to carve up Poland?

    The fighting between the Nazi’s and Soviets was 2 equally vile totalitarian states in a death match. I don’t give Russia any credit for anything they did there. They would not have been in the position in the first place if they hadn’t worked hand in hand with Nazi Germany before the start of the war.

    Who were the Soviets going to work with to deflect the German advance towards their border? The French? The British? It was pretty clear, that neither was interested in halting a German advance towards Russia.

    Are you really trying to portray the Soviets as innocent victims?

    That guy has been supporting the complete destruction of Ukraine throughout this whole invasion.  Who knows why?

    • #84
  25. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    All I am asking is how will the genocide be carried out.

    Your definition of Genocide is too narrow. It’s not necessarily the murder of everyone in a group. Although at this point Russia is busy on both the retail, shoot helpless civilians in their head, and wholesale, bomb helpless civilians where they can. Not to mention their having caused about 10% of Ukrainians to become either internal, or external refugees.

    It’s an attempt to eliminate a group from existence. That includes their nationality, culture and ethnic identity. See definition #3 in my post.

    For example. Rome committed Genocide against Carthage. The vast majority of Carthaginians were not killed. They were carried off into slavery. Their homeland was destroyed and turned into a Roman colony. Carthage was erased from history.

    If you read the Russians plans for Ukraine thats essentially what they are proposing.

    Ukraine ceases to exist as an entity. Ukrainians are “returned” to their Russian “Motherland”.

    Any who disagree are Nazis and subject to elimination.

    Thats Genocide.

    OK, 

    So, how is this going to happen? The Russians retreated from around Kiev. With that in mind, it does not look like they are going to carry off slaves from there like the Romans did. You talked above about the Russians killing anyone who was a nationalist. How is that going to happen?

    And, sorry if I am “reading” Genocide too narrowly, but #3 uses the word “Killing” specifically. It is even bolded. 

    So, by your own definition that you have just referred me too at the top of this page, the first verb is “killing”. While #1 does not say “killing” it uses “extermination”. That means killing. 

    Genocide means killing people by your chosen definition. I have linked that and extermination below. 

    So, how are they going to do all the killing? I think that is a valid question. 

     

    ex·ter·mi·na·tion/ikˌstərməˈnāSH(ə)n/Learn to pronounce noun 

    1. killing, especially of a whole group of people or animals.
    • #85
  26. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Ekosj (View Comment):
    I’ll concede a point regarding Russia and WW2. They did most of the heavy lifting against the Germans.

    You mean after they allied with Germany to carve up Poland?

    The fighting between the Nazi’s and Soviets was 2 equally vile totalitarian states in a death match. I don’t give Russia any credit for anything they did there. They would not have been in the position in the first place if they hadn’t worked hand in hand with Nazi Germany before the start of the war.

    Who were the Soviets going to work with to deflect the German advance towards their border? The French? The British? It was pretty clear, that neither was interested in halting a German advance towards Russia.

    Are you really trying to portray the Soviets as innocent victims?

    That guy has been supporting the complete destruction of Ukraine throughout this whole invasion. Who knows why?

    That is a false statement and slur against him. That is not true of Hang On at all. 

    • #86
  27. Raxxalan Member
    Raxxalan
    @Raxxalan

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    So they are going to line people up or just shell and bomb the cities?

     

    Apparently according to the information they are doing both, of course as always it is hard to determine the truth. It is undeniable that they are shelling/ have shelled Mariupol. Also the massacre in Bucha seems credible at this point. All war is ugly business but this definitely appears to be much uglier than most. We knew Putin was a thug and a murderer so that isn’t surprising. That it is widely part of the Russian invasion at this point doesn’t speak well of the Russian Army. Incidentally that article goes on to essentially link America and Western Europe to the Nazis in Ukraine, so basically that argues that any peace between NATO and Russia is instrumental as far as they are concerned. This is not the time to have such and incredibly weak hand on the tiller of the United States. The world is too deadly serious to keep indulging in western elite’s childish ideas any longer. We adults back in charge.

    So, they will go back and Shell Kiev then, or will the Genocide be just in places east?

     

    I am not sure anyone knows, this includes Putin. A lot depends on what he still has the military capability of accomplishing. Withdrawing to points east seems to have been a concession to the realities on the ground. Another consideration is what does the peace process look like. The things that have been revealed by the withdrawing Russian army are not likely to make that go smoother and may scuttle it all together. If Russia can regroup and Ukrainians are mad enough that they continue to fight, and I don’t really see how they could stop at this point. I expect they will be back to shelling or bombing Kiev.

    Putin has actually committed a error in this. He has put the Ukrainians on dying ground. I am not sure this was an good strategy. Makes me question the whole thing, but it appears to be legit and matches the facts that seem true.

    But for genocide, he has to kill a lot more people. Sounds like carpet bombing to me.

    The goals if the story is accurate are genocidal. I am not sure how much blood must be spilled for a technical genocide. I am hedging on this not because I think Putin is in the right or good, I don’t I think he is an evil [CoC Violation about his parentage redacted] or because I think there is any real justification for the Russian invasion. I am hedging because dealing in these kinds of explosive allegations deserve the utmost of care.

    All I am asking is how will the genocide be carried out.

    I get that.  I will even concede that it may not be possible to carry it out anymore.  The fact that they apparently wanted to carry it out and were at least according to evidence, which can be to some extent verified, is important.   As I said I am hedging here this is something that needs to be handled with care.

    A lot of what we now know has implications for the US and the West going forward.  It argues that Putin isn’t someone we can really deal with.   He sees his role in the world as a moral crusade to rid the world of the “Nazis”, which he defines as the West.  It means we are going to need to be a lot more serious going forward.   It also means having them been part of a deal to get “oversee” Iran’s compliance with the JCPOA is flat out lunacy of the highest order.

    It also means we aren’t necessarily in February of 1947 or June of 1914.   We are closer to September of 1938 that is a very dangerous time period to be in.  There are effectively no common interests with Russia anymore for the West at least not with its current leadership and ideology.  We are going to need to rearm and work to block Russia’s freedom of movement.   It means the China Russia alliance is something we are going to have to watch carefully.  America needs to get to a place where it can fight a two front war.   

    It means we are in probably the most dangerous time in world history and we have the absolutely dumbest elected political class in world history.  Angels and Ministers of grace defend us.

    • #87
  28. Kozak Member
    Kozak
    @Kozak

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    All I am asking is how will the genocide be carried out.

    Your definition of Genocide is too narrow. It’s not necessarily the murder of everyone in a group. Although at this point Russia is busy on both the retail, shoot helpless civilians in their head, and wholesale, bomb helpless civilians where they can. Not to mention their having caused about 10% of Ukrainians to become either internal, or external refugees.

    It’s an attempt to eliminate a group from existence. That includes their nationality, culture and ethnic identity. See definition #3 in my post.

    For example. Rome committed Genocide against Carthage. The vast majority of Carthaginians were not killed. They were carried off into slavery. Their homeland was destroyed and turned into a Roman colony. Carthage was erased from history.

    If you read the Russians plans for Ukraine thats essentially what they are proposing.

    Ukraine ceases to exist as an entity. Ukrainians are “returned” to their Russian “Motherland”.

    Any who disagree are Nazis and subject to elimination.

    Thats Genocide.

    OK,

    So, how is this going to happen? The Russians retreated from around Kiev. With that in mind, it does not look like they are going to carry off slaves from there like the Romans did. You talked above about the Russians killing anyone who was a nationalist. How is that going to happen?

    And, sorry if I am “reading” Genocide too narrowly, but #3 uses the word “Killing” specifically. It is even bolded.

    So, by your own definition that you have just referred me too at the top of this page, the first verb is “killing”. While #1 does not say “killing” it uses “extermination”. That means killing.

    Genocide means killing people by your chosen definition. I have linked that and extermination below.

    So, how are they going to do all the killing? I think that is a valid question.

    ex·ter·mi·na·tion/ikˌstərməˈnāSH(ə)n/Learn to pronounce noun

    1. killing, especially of a whole group of people or animals.

    Do you not understand this was a recently published article, calling on Russia to carryout these things? It assumes a Russian victory where they can impose their will on the defeated Ukrainian nation.  It doesn’t specify the details, but paints the broad outlines.  The fact that they haven’t been able to carry it out yet doesn’t mean what they plan and would like to institute constitutes genocide.   Why is that so hard for you to understand?

    • #88
  29. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Raxxalan (View Comment):
    It means we are in probably the most dangerous time in world history and we have the absolutely dumbest elected political class in world history.  Angels and Ministers of grace defend us.

    Yep!

    • #89
  30. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    All I am asking is how will the genocide be carried out.

    Your definition of Genocide is too narrow. It’s not necessarily the murder of everyone in a group. Although at this point Russia is busy on both the retail, shoot helpless civilians in their head, and wholesale, bomb helpless civilians where they can. Not to mention their having caused about 10% of Ukrainians to become either internal, or external refugees.

    It’s an attempt to eliminate a group from existence. That includes their nationality, culture and ethnic identity. See definition #3 in my post.

    For example. Rome committed Genocide against Carthage. The vast majority of Carthaginians were not killed. They were carried off into slavery. Their homeland was destroyed and turned into a Roman colony. Carthage was erased from history.

    If you read the Russians plans for Ukraine thats essentially what they are proposing.

    Ukraine ceases to exist as an entity. Ukrainians are “returned” to their Russian “Motherland”.

    Any who disagree are Nazis and subject to elimination.

    Thats Genocide.

    OK,

    So, how is this going to happen? The Russians retreated from around Kiev. With that in mind, it does not look like they are going to carry off slaves from there like the Romans did. You talked above about the Russians killing anyone who was a nationalist. How is that going to happen?

    And, sorry if I am “reading” Genocide too narrowly, but #3 uses the word “Killing” specifically. It is even bolded.

    So, by your own definition that you have just referred me too at the top of this page, the first verb is “killing”. While #1 does not say “killing” it uses “extermination”. That means killing.

    Genocide means killing people by your chosen definition. I have linked that and extermination below.

    So, how are they going to do all the killing? I think that is a valid question.

    ex·ter·mi·na·tion/ikˌstərməˈnāSH(ə)n/Learn to pronounce noun

    1. killing, especially of a whole group of people or animals.

    Do you not understand this was a recently published article, calling on Russia to carryout these things? It assumes a Russian victory where they can impose their will on the defeated Ukrainian nation. It doesn’t specify the details, but paints the broad outlines. The fact that they haven’t been able to carry it out yet doesn’t mean what they plan and would like to institute constitutes genocide. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

    Well, I don’t understand you saying that genocide is not about necessarily about killing when your own definition is all about killing, which was what that post you quoted was about. 

    Before that post, my question here, since that article above does not specify the details, is how do we here think they are going to do it? I have yet to see that question really answered. No where have I questioned the premise of your OP. I am, in fact, starting with it, and asking how you, as the OP, expect it to be carried out. 

    I hope that clarifies. 

     

    • #90
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