Quote of the Day: Is Europe Finished?

 

Let’s cut through the diplo-speak: If Mr. Biden and the Europeans don’t get Ukraine right, Europe’s future is finished.

Putin is Hitler. He is attempting the extermination of a people and the obliteration of their cities. World War II wasn’t fought in Europe to prevent a future nuclear exchange between Russia and the U.S. It was fought because Europe was experiencing the indiscriminate murder of civilians under Nazi military doctrine, now revived by Mr. Putin and the Russian general staff.— Daniel Henninger

In an ambitious flurry of activity, Europe is speaking out and taking action against Vladimir Putin, canceling some of their commitments to him and stepping in to help Ukraine. Most of the Ukrainian refugees are landing in Poland, Hungary, and Slovakia. The EU has established an emergency protection system, offering jobs, shelter, and medical treatment. They have also worked at streamlining their entry procedures. The invasion of Putin has been criticized harshly, and Europe has stepped up.

But how long will they enthusiastically deal with this new reality?

At this writing, 4 million people have fled Ukraine; another 6.5 million people are displaced. It’s impossible to know how long the conflict will drag on, or whether the EU countries will be able to support millions of refugees, or how many of the Ukrainians will stay. Will they be able to find work? Will they be able to adjust if they choose to stay? Will they be welcomed by the various countries?

And will the U.S. make a sincere and reasonable effort to supply arms and compassionate support, and for how long?

And yet . . . and yet . . .

Does Europe really have a choice? Over time will they try to ignore the threats that Putin poses to the European continent?

Will they realize that helping Ukraine and Ukrainians and standing up to Putin could determine the very future of Europe?

Published in Foreign Policy
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  1. Mark Camp Member
    Mark Camp
    @MarkCamp

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Fake John/Jane Galt (View Comment):
    Thought so but the Left is good at selling guilt and shame. It is amazing how we have been able to convince so many to give others stuff they have not worked for.

    …and what the Left refuses to recognize is that when we give away stuff and don’t have expectations for people to work for it, we damage their self-respect and debilitate their souls.

    Right on.

    The politicians who take stuff from people and then give it away to other people do so partly to buy votes, but also because their economic advisors from academia tell them that according to their computer simulations, it will result in economic growth.

    I would love to ask one of these experts where in their system of differential equations they take the above “Quinn Effect” into account. 

    • #61
  2. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):
    Still not as bad as Hitler if there’s no attempt at systematic genocide.

    How systematic will it need to become? Blueprints?

    What if Putin is trying to make the killings look random? Murders in the streets, burning bodies, and (it might be rumor) portable crematoriums. And there’s Bucha . . .

    One of us is not understanding the other.

    It’s not genocide, is it? It’s murderous oppression. It’s bad enough, but it’s not the same kind of thing, is it?

    These distinctions between murderous thugs may be accurate, but in my book there is not a significant difference worth losing sleep over between Putin and Hitler, Napoleon, Genghis Khan, etc….  Those others were more successful than Putin has been so far, but I would just as soon line any one of them against a wall and shoot them.

    • #62
  3. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    For those who think that comparison to the Nazis is over-the-top, you might find Kozak’s post interesting. In terms of Putin’s aspirations, at least, it might not be too far off.

    As you might guess, I found Kozak’s post to be over-the-top.

    To be fair, I found your comment in #16 to be over the top.

    Unless @arizonapatriot is on the scene in Ukraine to see things with his own eyes, there is no reason for his opinion, that he allegedly forms based on the facts as he interprets them, to be considered more reputable than other opinions expressed here.

     

    • #63
  4. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    Arahant (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Unjust invasions and murders of civilians are bad.

    Still not as bad as Hitler if there’s no attempt at systematic genocide.

    Forget it, Jake, it’s Ukraine (again.)

    Does this simply mean the lying, cheating,  and stealing that’s been the norm in Ukraine now includes killing?

    • #64
  5. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Arahant (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Unjust invasions and murders of civilians are bad.

    Still not as bad as Hitler if there’s no attempt at systematic genocide.

    Forget it, Jake, it’s Ukraine (again.)

    Does this simply mean the lying, cheating, and stealing that’s been the norm in Ukraine now includes killing?

    No, it’s really a reference to the Holodomor. To quote from Wikipedia:

    Whether or not the Holodomor was genocide is still the subject of legal and academic debate.

    But the people who died don’t care about the distinctions.

    • #65
  6. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    genferei (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    The influx of muslims was – and is – primarily due to the lack of native Europeans to have children.

    I kind of get what you mean, but the mechanism is not that a lack of native children creates a vacuum that physically sucks unwitting Muslims into Europe. There are immigration, welfare, education and criminal laws, regulations and practices that need to be changed to make immigration and ‘multiculturalism’ (by which I mean a lack of assimilation) possible and attractive. And on this score, the European establishment is as responsive to popular will as the US establishment is.

    They figured they needed to bring in mostly young people to replace the children they couldn’t be bothered to have, and to work and pay taxes to support the older Europeans who didn’t have (enough) children.  They set up a welfare state that depended on having a continuing production of children to keep things going, and then didn’t have the children required.  Instead they started bringing in people who bore little resemblance to themselves or their values, just to balance the financial books.  It’s already been biting them in the ass, and worse; and it will continue to do so.  Until eventually the immigrants are the ones in charge because the Europeans will have died off.

    • #66
  7. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    It’s not finished until it’s finished.

    • #67
  8. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    It’s not finished until it’s finished.

    Are you quoting Yogi Bear?

    • #68
  9. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Has Germany wavered from supporting Ukraine? I haven’t seen it. Has any European country wavered from supporting Ukraine? I don’t think so.

    The question was, “is Europe finished?” not “Is Europe giving up on Ukraine?” Does it really matter if Europe still “supports” Ukraine (whatever that means) if it’s still in the throes of cultural and demographic suicide?

    Lacking cultural confidence and accepting thousands of Muslim immigrants with — putting it mildly — non-European values, is Europe finished? I say yes. And the US isn’t far behind. The Trump presidency was a short pause in our self-loathing self-destruction.

    I guess we were talking past each other. My original comment side stepped the OP’s question. I was not answering that directly. So I now see where you were coming from. Yes if Europe continues its immigration policy, it will no longer be Europe. I’ve said that in the past too. 

    • #69
  10. Hang On Member
    Hang On
    @HangOn

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    How systematic will it need to become? Blueprints?

    What if Putin is trying to make the killings look random? Murders in the streets, burning bodies, and (it might be rumor) portable crematoriums. And there’s Bucha . . .

     

    Russia has asked the UN to send in forensic investigators for Bucha. India has asked the same. Britain, who is the current rotating president of the security council, has blocked it. Why?

    • #70
  11. DonG (CAGW is a Hoax) Coolidge
    DonG (CAGW is a Hoax)
    @DonG

    Manny (View Comment):
    Yeah so?  Europe has lots of nuclear reactors.

    Nope.  Germany turned off all theirs.  France has promised to turn off half of theirs (and they are majority nuclear).   The two are like the Thelma and Louise of energy security.

    • #71
  12. DonG (CAGW is a Hoax) Coolidge
    DonG (CAGW is a Hoax)
    @DonG

    Fake John/Jane Galt (View Comment):

    …and what the Left refuses to recognize is that when we give away stuff and don’t have expectations for people to work for it, we damage their self-respect and debilitate their souls.

    Who needs self respect when we have self esteem?  And they do not believe in God so thus no soul.  Only the now.  

    They have virtue signaling, which is a form of vanity and not related to self-esteem.  The best people in the world are competent, confident, and humble. 

    • #72
  13. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    DonG (CAGW is a Hoax) (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):
    Yeah so? Europe has lots of nuclear reactors.

    Nope. Germany turned off all theirs. France has promised to turn off half of theirs (and they are majority nuclear). The two are like the Thelma and Louise of energy security.

    Not sure about Germany, but last I heard France is building more new nuclear plants; maybe they’re closing the ones with older technology, while building more-efficient new ones?

    • #73
  14. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    Hang On (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    How systematic will it need to become? Blueprints?

    What if Putin is trying to make the killings look random? Murders in the streets, burning bodies, and (it might be rumor) portable crematoriums. And there’s Bucha . . .

     

    Russia has asked the UN to send in forensic investigators for Bucha. India has asked the same. Britain, who is the current rotating president of the security council, has blocked it. Why?

    I’ve seen several news clips indicating that the United States government has been seeding the media with false information, some of it said to be for influencing Russian action. I already had questions in my mind regarding whether those bodies shown with hands tied could be staged for propaganda purposes. How can any media reporting be trusted?

    • #74
  15. Hang On Member
    Hang On
    @HangOn

    kedavis (View Comment):

    DonG (CAGW is a Hoax) (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):
    Yeah so? Europe has lots of nuclear reactors.

    Nope. Germany turned off all theirs. France has promised to turn off half of theirs (and they are majority nuclear). The two are like the Thelma and Louise of energy security.

    Not sure about Germany, but last I heard France is building more new nuclear plants; maybe they’re closing the ones with older technology, while building more-efficient new ones?

    https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/country-profiles/countries-a-f/france.aspx#:~:text=France%20derives%20about%2070%25%20of,delayed%20in%202019%20to%202035.

    France is building new plants, but also cutting its reliance on nuclear from 70 to 50% of electricity by 2035. 

    • #75
  16. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Hang On (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    DonG (CAGW is a Hoax) (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):
    Yeah so? Europe has lots of nuclear reactors.

    Nope. Germany turned off all theirs. France has promised to turn off half of theirs (and they are majority nuclear). The two are like the Thelma and Louise of energy security.

    Not sure about Germany, but last I heard France is building more new nuclear plants; maybe they’re closing the ones with older technology, while building more-efficient new ones?

    https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/country-profiles/countries-a-f/france.aspx#:~:text=France%20derives%20about%2070%25%20of,delayed%20in%202019%20to%202035.

    France is building new plants, but also stupidly cutting its reliance on nuclear from 70 to 50% of electricity by 2035.

    FIFY

    • #76
  17. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    DonG (CAGW is a Hoax) (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):
    Yeah so? Europe has lots of nuclear reactors.

    Nope. Germany turned off all theirs. France has promised to turn off half of theirs (and they are majority nuclear). The two are like the Thelma and Louise of energy security.

    This is like leave the doors open, go to bed, turn off the lights and shut your eyes (forever).

    • #77
  18. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    How systematic will it need to become? Blueprints?

    What if Putin is trying to make the killings look random? Murders in the streets, burning bodies, and (it might be rumor) portable crematoriums. And there’s Bucha . . .

     

    Russia has asked the UN to send in forensic investigators for Bucha. India has asked the same. Britain, who is the current rotating president of the security council, has blocked it. Why?

    I’ve seen several news clips indicating that the United States government has been seeding the media with false information, some of it said to be for influencing Russian action. I already had questions in my mind regarding whether those bodies shown with hands tied could be staged for propaganda purposes. How can any media reporting be trusted?

    Tory War Writer was ridiculed and personally criticized for pointing out things like this.  Funny thing is that as far as I was aware he was pretty much right.

    • #78
  19. Hang On Member
    Hang On
    @HangOn

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/country-profiles/countries-a-f/france.aspx#:~:text=France%20derives%20about%2070%25%20of,delayed%20in%202019%20to%202035.

    France is building new plants, but also stupidly cutting its reliance on nuclear from 70 to 50% of electricity by 2035.

    FIFY

    I don’t know. 70% of electricity generated by one means seems as though they are too dependent on a single type. All their uranium is imported from Africa and Central Asia, so political risk. And prices fluctuate. 

    • #79
  20. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    Are the Democrats pushing for us to actively (boots on the ground in Ukraine) enter this war? I’ve seen clips from cable news with commentators suggesting that.

    • #80
  21. Hang On Member
    Hang On
    @HangOn

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    How systematic will it need to become? Blueprints?

    What if Putin is trying to make the killings look random? Murders in the streets, burning bodies, and (it might be rumor) portable crematoriums. And there’s Bucha . . .

     

    Russia has asked the UN to send in forensic investigators for Bucha. India has asked the same. Britain, who is the current rotating president of the security council, has blocked it. Why?

    I’ve seen several news clips indicating that the United States government has been seeding the media with false information, some of it said to be for influencing Russian action. I already had questions in my mind regarding whether those bodies shown with hands tied could be staged for propaganda purposes. How can any media reporting be trusted?

    Tory War Writer was ridiculed and personally criticized for pointing out things like this. Funny thing is that as far as I was aware he was pretty much right.

    I don’t understand why Ukraine has any credibility. They torture Russian POWs, laugh and brag about it. They execute them. But Russia is committing all the war crimes? The media (NY Post, even) circulates a picture of a woman tortured and murdered with a swastika in the basement of a building after Ukrainians have withdrawn from Mariupol (Patrick Lancaster showed her as they were going through buildings just abandoned by Ukrainians) and it was labeled as Russians doing this in the American press. It’s like all the British propaganda about Germans in World War I. 

    • #81
  22. Hang On Member
    Hang On
    @HangOn

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Are the Democrats pushing for us to actively (boots on the ground in Ukraine) enter this war? I’ve seen clips from cable news with commentators suggesting that.

    I don’t think it’s restricted to Democrats. You have Lindsay Graham. And Thom Tillis (pfui. My senator). 

    If you watch Rich Barris and his polling, Republicans’ generic lead has fallen in the last month and he postulates it as a result of the warmonger Republicans. He’s going to refine questions to find out this month. 

    • #82
  23. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    Hang On (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Are the Democrats pushing for us to actively (boots on the ground in Ukraine) enter this war? I’ve seen clips from cable news with commentators suggesting that.

    I don’t think it’s restricted to Democrats. You have Lindsay Graham. And Thom Tillis (pfui. My senator).

    If you watch Rich Barris and his polling, Republicans’ generic lead has fallen in the last month and he postulates it as a result of the warmonger Republicans. He’s going to refine questions to find out this month.

    Democrats are in power. I agree with your assessment of those Republican Senators.I don’t understand the Fox News people always asking for Graham’s views.

    • #83
  24. EHerring Coolidge
    EHerring
    @EHerring

    Quit worrying about the death of Europe. Our own country is dying , probably already past the tipping point. If the Democrats don’t oppress you, the cartels will threaten you, or both. They are doxing our National Guard and sending them death threats.it is only a matter of time before local law enforcement gets the same treatment.

    • #84
  25. genferei Member
    genferei
    @genferei

    kedavis (View Comment):

    They figured they needed to bring in mostly young people to replace the children they couldn’t be bothered to have, and to work and pay taxes to support the older Europeans who didn’t have (enough) children. They set up a welfare state that depended on having a continuing production of children to keep things going, and then didn’t have the children required. Instead they started bringing in people who bore little resemblance to themselves or their values, just to balance the financial books. It’s already been biting them in the ass, and worse; and it will continue to do so. Until eventually the immigrants are the ones in charge because the Europeans will have died off.

    If you change the fifth to last word this could apply to the US, too. Perhaps you could change “bringing” to “letting”, but I don’t think that makes any difference. How many millions has Biden brought to the US so far to prop up the oligarchic welfare state of the US?

    • #85
  26. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    genferei (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    They figured they needed to bring in mostly young people to replace the children they couldn’t be bothered to have, and to work and pay taxes to support the older Europeans who didn’t have (enough) children. They set up a welfare state that depended on having a continuing production of children to keep things going, and then didn’t have the children required. Instead they started bringing in people who bore little resemblance to themselves or their values, just to balance the financial books. It’s already been biting them in the ass, and worse; and it will continue to do so. Until eventually the immigrants are the ones in charge because the Europeans will have died off.

    If you change the fifth to last word this could apply to the US, too. Perhaps you could change “bringing” to “letting”, but I don’t think that makes any difference. How many millions has Biden brought to the US so far to prop up the oligarchic welfare state of the US?

    How does it prop up the oligarchic welfare state, to bring in more “takers” of welfare, food stamps, free school lunches, free healthcare, etc etc etc?

    • #86
  27. James Lileks Contributor
    James Lileks
    @jameslileks

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    James Lileks (View Comment):

    Europe is a large, diverse place with dozens of cultures. Some will find their spine; others never lost it; others will sink into a grey ooze of decline for a while, then get slapped awake. Nothing is ever finished.

    Nothing is ever finished?? This is demonstrably, historically untrue. Sure, the land mass remains, but tell it to the Mayans and Aztecs, the Canaanites, the Philistines, the Hittites, the Jebusites, . . . heck, closer to “home” — the Romans, the Angles, the Saxons. . . Bring any one of them back from the dead and have them take a look around and see if they recognize the people or the place — and it won’t be unrecognizable just because of the radically unfamiliar technological changes, but because of what people believe about the fundamental meaning of life and what it is to be human.

    Well, yes, in the long run, everything dies.  I see your point. I was thinking more short-term, i.e., is Europe, in 2022, finished? No. I have the hope that comes from being . . . well, a western chauvinist.

    The Romans might find  many things recognizable in the modern world. They would recognize architectural paradigms, government systems, societal stratifications, etc. Give a reanimated Caesar a week to get his bearings and he’d be thinking of ways to make these ships-that-fly wipe out pesky Gauls.

     

     

    Pardon me if I rely on a bit of biblical wisdom instead — all things are passing away. Christendom (by which I mean the Christian West, not Christianity) is dead. Christian Europe has been deader longer than the US, so they’re somewhat more mature in their neo-paganism and maybe they’ll refuse to mutilate and sterilize their children under the guise of “gender identity.” They seem a little less radical than our radicals, but I could be mistaken.

    This seems to highlight a major division on the Right. There are those with some kind of (unwarranted, imo) confidence in the ongoing state of affairs and then there are those of us who see it all as fragile and temporary. The former believes the latter to be too negative and at risk of “depressing the turnout.” I believe we’re the realists and we find peace in more permanent, transcendent things — you could say One Eternal thing.

     

    • #87
  28. James Lileks Contributor
    James Lileks
    @jameslileks

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):
    This seems to highlight a major division on the Right. There are those with some kind of (unwarranted, imo) confidence in the ongoing state of affairs and then there are those of us who see it all as fragile and temporary. The former believes the latter to be too negative and at risk of “depressing the turnout.” I believe we’re the realists and we find peace in more permanent, transcendent things — you could say One Eternal thing.

    It is possible to see it as fragile and have confidence, partly because the alternative is despair and retreat in search of a disassociated personal peace, and partly because it’s always been fragile. We do what we can while we’re here.

    • #88
  29. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    kedavis (View Comment):
    How does it prop up the oligarchic welfare state, to bring in more “takers” of welfare, food stamps, free school lunches, free healthcare, etc etc etc?

    Right. It’s about breaking the system.

    • #89
  30. genferei Member
    genferei
    @genferei

    kedavis (View Comment):

    genferei (View Comment):

    How many millions has Biden brought to the US so far to prop up the oligarchic welfare state of the US?

    How does it prop up the oligarchic welfare state, to bring in more “takers” of welfare, food stamps, free school lunches, free healthcare, etc etc etc?

    Ask the Chamber of Commerce, open borders, cheap labour, doing-the-jobs-Americans-won’t-do crowd. They’ll tell you immigrants are a resource, and a necessary one for propping up the Social Security Ponzi scheme.

    My point is that almost all of the talk of civilizational decline directed at Western Europe can be directed at the US with a few tweaks. To the extent that one considers the situation still remediable in the US, almost the same considerations could apply to Europe. (Note the two “almost”s, though.)

    • #90
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