Vaccine Turnabout: Will There Be Rage and Who Will Feel It?

 

First: I took the two-shot Pfizer last spring. I didn’t really want to, but I have a special needs sister who had been in quarantine for months and the shots were required to restart family visits. I would have licked Tabasco off the rim of a garbage can on Bourbon Street if that was what was required to see my sister. Other than some aches and fever after the second shot, I have no identifiable vaccine issues.

Second: I had Covid during the holidays this year. Probably the “O” version, but they don’t really test for that specifically. Worse than a cold, but not as bad as the flu. I believe I am fully recovered.

Third: I have known several people that died with/from Covid — mostly older and with other health issues.

Fourth: I know one person that had a massive stroke within 36 hours of the Moderna vaccine and died. She was older, but generally in good health. Was it vaccine-related? Who knows, but her family certainly thinks so.

So the news now is that the vaccine doesn’t exactly work: if vaccinated, you can still pass on the virus, can get other variants (quibbles over if the vaccine “lessens” the severity of the illness). Further, the vaccine may cause heart issues; the vaccine may affect women’s cycles and of course, since the vaccine hasn’t been around long term, we will be finding out if it has adverse long-term consequences in real-time. What if it does? Excess cancer, heart problems, blood clots, infertility, strokes, etc?

Trump touted the vaccine as a scientific triumph. Big Pharma has pushed the vaccine as virtually risk-free (but with a liability shield carve out — just in case they are wrong). Big Government has fast-tracked approvals and agency recommendations. (Vaccinate your 5-year-olds!) The Democrats in power (state and federal) have pushed vaccines in every way imaginable.

I’m just running rabbit trails in my mind here. What if becomes more apparent that the negative health consequences from the vaccine exceed the (what appears to be diminishing) positives? Will the vaccinated population feel duped? Will they be angry? To whom will their anger be directed? Trump? Dems? Pharma? I am sure any specific constituent’s anger will be channeled thru their regular tribal preferences. Dems will blame Trump and Pharma, conservatives will blame Big Pharma and Big Government (and maybe Trump too).

Will we approach a critical mass of vaccine remorse? If it comes to that, how will the displeasure manifest? (You can’t vote everybody out). Will it matter? Will the people who point out the mounting negatives be labeled as crazies and sent to the proverbial gulags? Will it just be one big gaslighting by those in power? Demonstrations? Riots? Or will the populace just accept that we did what we could with the info we had at the time so oh well?

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  1. Front Seat Cat Member
    Front Seat Cat
    @FrontSeatCat

    There’s no good answer to any of what you described. All we can do is make the best decisions we can for ourselves and family. Try to stay healthy – we’re in new territory as to how this will all turn out. 

    • #1
  2. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    The other problem is the counterfactuals. Yes, some people suffer myocarditis from the vaccine, but according to my (very libertarian) internist, you’re probably more likely to get myocarditis from COVID. Would the same people have gotten myocarditis if they were unvaccinated and had contracted COVID? We’ll never know. 

    Same with strokes. I know of several people who had strokes pre-vaccines after contracting COVID. But, some people seem to have the same reaction to the vaccine as your example above.

    I, too, am double-Pfizer vaxxed, but I’m not getting the booster because, although I expect I will contract the commie flu, I’m hoping a) Omicron will save my bacon (won’t be bad enough to put me in the hospital), and b) I had weird blood vessel breakage in my hands after the 2nd Pfizer.

    All of which is to say, nobody knows nuthin’ and a little intellectual humility is in order. But, the vaccine mandates delenda est.

    • #2
  3. Doug Kimball Thatcher
    Doug Kimball
    @DougKimball

    I, for one, will not blame Trump.  MRNA vaccines were new and showed promise, but immune systems are dynamic and no one knew just how resilient or effective a single antibody immune reaction would be.  Not so much, we now know, even nil if the spike protein itself mutates significantly in a new variant.  Natural immunity is far more robust.  Antibodies (27 accounted for so far) and white blood cells (several types with different functions) are all involved in neutralizing and eliminating viruses.  But since the Mrna technology existed, worked in the lab, was relatively easy to produce, it was easy to see how it became an answer to a  pandemic threat.  But Trump was not a vaccine exclusive promoter.  He was a strong supporter of therapeutics as well.  Trump took an any and all possibilities approach to COVID.  Had the public health bureaucracy followed his lead, rather than their vaccine/booster centric policy that discounted natural immunity, the outcome may have been far different.

    • #3
  4. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Doug Kimball (View Comment):

    I, for one, will not blame Trump. MRNA vaccines were new and showed promise, but immune systems are dynamic and no one knew just how resilient or effective a single antibody immune reaction would be. Not so much, we now know, even nil if the spike protein itself mutates significantly in a new variant. Natural immunity is far more robust. Antibodies (27 accounted for so far) and white blood cells (several types with different functions) are all involved in neutralizing and eliminating viruses. But since the Mrna technology existed, worked in the lab, was relatively easy to produce, it was easy to see how it became an answer to a pandemic threat. But Trump was not a vaccine exclusive promoter. He was a strong supporter of therapeutics as well. Trump took and all possibilities approach to COVID. Had the public health bureaucracy followed his lead, rather than their vaccine/booster centric policy that discounted natural immunity, the outcome may have been far different.

    Yes, the lack of emphasis on therapeutics (and even withholding of them (monoclonal antibodies) from Republican run states) is shocking and immoral. Fauci should be in jail.

    • #4
  5. Stina Member
    Stina
    @CM

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):
    Yes, some people suffer myocarditis from the vaccine, but according to my (very libertarian) internist, you’re probably more likely to get myocarditis from COVID. Would the same people have gotten myocarditis if they were unvaccinated and had contracted COVID? We’ll never know. 

    For under 21, the risk is higher with the vaccine than it is for clinical Covid.

    • #5
  6. Dominique Prynne Member
    Dominique Prynne
    @DominiquePrynne

    https://alexberenson.substack.com/p/if-you-are-a-vaccine-company-executive

    Ha!  Me and Alex Berenson are having similar thoughts today!  

    • #6
  7. Kelly B Member
    Kelly B
    @KellyB

    Dominique Prynne (View Comment):

    https://alexberenson.substack.com/p/if-you-are-a-vaccine-company-executive

    Ha! Me and Alex Berenson are having similar thoughts today!

    He had 2 paid-subscriber updates since then indicating that the European regulators and the WHO are starting to suggest that maybe boosters aren’t such a great idea. It would be fun to watch this play out if it weren’t for all the people that might see side-effects crop up over the next 5-10 years.

    • #7
  8. Dominique Prynne Member
    Dominique Prynne
    @DominiquePrynne

    Doug Kimball (View Comment):
    But Trump was not a vaccine exclusive promoter.  He was a strong supporter of therapeutics as well.  Trump took an any and all possibilities approach to COVID.

    This seems right.  I have found it bizarre that therapeutics have not been a larger factor in the battle. Cue conspiracy theories (realities?) about Big Pharma, Big Government again. 

    • #8
  9. Hans Gruber Pfizer President Inactive
    Hans Gruber Pfizer President
    @Pseudodionysius

    Here is what is going on.

    • #9
  10. MarciN Member
    MarciN
    @MarciN

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):
    Yes, the lack of emphasis on therapeutics (and even withholding of them (monoclonal antibodies) from Republican run states) is shocking and immoral. Fauci should be in jail.

    For this, I blame Fauci completely. To my mind, he owns this all the way.

    He has done the same thing with the flu for as long as I’ve been a mother, and I blame him for the pediatric deaths that occurred with the flu for years. (I don’t know what the current numbers are.)

    I did not realize this until I started following the current pandemic and his remarks about it. Before the pandemic, I could not conceive of how top-down, military-like, the CDC and NIH actually are because that is an outdated organization form in the private sector where I spend my time.

    He pushed the flu vaccine while simultaneously denigrating antibiotics for secondary infections and the doctors who prescribed them. He confused everyone–including the nation’s doctors. The old doctors would get a child (or any other patient, frankly) started immediately on an antibiotic when symptoms of a secondary infection first occurred. Better to be safe than sorry. Fauci’s anti-antibiotic blind spot got a lot of people killed, in my opinion.

    My problem with this guy is that he goes to extremes.

    The Internet is a wonderful thing. He got this way because no one challenged him.

    • #10
  11. Hans Gruber Pfizer President Inactive
    Hans Gruber Pfizer President
    @Pseudodionysius

    • #11
  12. Dominique Prynne Member
    Dominique Prynne
    @DominiquePrynne

    Kelly B (View Comment):
    He had 2 paid-subscriber updates since then indicating that the European regulators and the WHO are starting to suggest that maybe boosters aren’t such a great idea. It would be fun to watch this play out if it weren’t for all the people that might see side-effects crop up over the next 5-10 years.

    One of my issues is that my daughter and nephew are both active duty military.  Both are vaccinated but not boostered. Neither wanted to take the vaccines to start with, but my daughter says the USAF is “highly encouraging” boosters and her chain of command even offered to schedule it for her.  She declined.  She is concerned about side effects, especially about unknown effects on fertility.  She is worried the booster will be made mandatory.  And made mandatory before the ill-effects are better known.  Does she risk a discharge or possible, as yet unknown negative effects of the booster?

    • #12
  13. Hans Gruber Pfizer President Inactive
    Hans Gruber Pfizer President
    @Pseudodionysius

    • #13
  14. Doug Kimball Thatcher
    Doug Kimball
    @DougKimball

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Doug Kimball (View Comment):

    I, for one, will not blame Trump. MRNA vaccines were new and showed promise, but immune systems are dynamic and no one knew just how resilient or effective a single antibody immune reaction would be. Not so much, we now know, even nil if the spike protein itself mutates significantly in a new variant. Natural immunity is far more robust. Antibodies (27 accounted for so far) and white blood cells (several types with different functions) are all involved in neutralizing and eliminating viruses. But since the Mrna technology existed, worked in the lab, was relatively easy to produce, it was easy to see how it became an answer to a pandemic threat. But Trump was not a vaccine exclusive promoter. He was a strong supporter of therapeutics as well. Trump took and all possibilities approach to COVID. Had the public health bureaucracy followed his lead, rather than their vaccine/booster centric policy that discounted natural immunity, the outcome may have been far different.

    Yes, the lack of emphasis on therapeutics (and even withholding of them (monoclonal antibodies) from Republican run states) is shocking and immoral. Fauci should be in jail.

    In case you didn’t think it could get any worse, minority status (black, Hispanic or indigenous) was a major factor in determining who would be given therapeutics.  So white Grandma, diabetic, could be denied therapeutics in favor of a person of color with no co-morbidities.  Somehow minority status alone was a major factor in medical triage determination.  Thank you, Brandon.

    • #14
  15. James Salerno Inactive
    James Salerno
    @JamesSalerno

    This is a midterm year.

    They can finally acknowledge that the vaccine isn’t doing what it’s supposed to and they can blame all of the negative side effects on Trump rushing it through. They can say all the things normal people have been talking about but put their own twist on it.

    • #15
  16. Full Size Tabby Member
    Full Size Tabby
    @FullSizeTabby

    I can’t really speak to turnabout rage, but Mrs. Tabby and I are not getting any “boosters” until more information is known. Of course we don’t believe anything government agencies (CDC) and officials and most media sources say, but that arose before it became clear that what the CDC, government officials, and most media said about the vaccine turned out not to be true. 

    What I don’t understand is why so many (employers as well as governments) are so forcefully doubling down on forcing vaccinations the more it becomes clear that the benefits of the vaccines are not what had been advertised. Forcing vaccinations makes less and less sense from a community health standpoint, and further alienates more and more people, leading them to refrain from getting vaccinations that might actually be personally beneficial for them. 

    • #16
  17. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot) Member
    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot)
    @ArizonaPatriot

    Stina (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):
    Yes, some people suffer myocarditis from the vaccine, but according to my (very libertarian) internist, you’re probably more likely to get myocarditis from COVID. Would the same people have gotten myocarditis if they were unvaccinated and had contracted COVID? We’ll never know.

    For under 21, the risk is higher with the vaccine than it is for clinical Covid.

    Stina, do you have a source for this?

    It seems unlikely to be true, to me, but I’m not sure.  I haven’t seen any good data on the risk of the vaccine.  It is true that the risk of clinical Covid is very low for people under 21, which alters the risk-benefit calculation.  My own impression has been that it is unnecessary to vaccinate the young, particularly as there is some uncertainty about the possible risks of the vaccine.

    • #17
  18. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot) Member
    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot)
    @ArizonaPatriot

    Hans Gruber Pfizer President (View Comment):

    This meme is quite misleading.  This may not be your fault, Hans, as you probably got it from somewhere.

    Here is a transcript of the interview in question.  The very next sentence is:

    “The three doses, with the booster, they offer reasonable protection against hospitalization and deaths– and, again, that’s, I think, very good– and less protection against the infection.”

    He goes on to discuss efforts to develop a new vaccine booster specifically aimed at the Omicron variant.

    • #18
  19. Hans Gruber Pfizer President Inactive
    Hans Gruber Pfizer President
    @Pseudodionysius

    Who knows what future doses will bring? Nobody, including Albert Bourla, though his scientists may have shot up enough mice and monkeys to give him a better idea than the rest of us.

    Unlike BioNTech and Moderna, Pfizer isn’t stuck with mRNA. It is a $300 billion pharmaceutical company that is busily taking its vaccine loot to buy lots of research. Plus it now has Paxlovid.

    (Big investors have figured all this out, by the way. The stocks of BioNTech and Moderna are down more than 50 percent since the peak of the vaccine frenzy in August, while Pfizer’s is up 20 percent and near an all-time high. Like Big Pharma, Wall Street is a lot of things, but it ain’t dumb.)

    So the prudent move for Albert Bourla, Doctor of Veterinary Medicine, PhD., is to begin to tamp expectations for vaccines, slow-walk more boosters, and hope that Omicron does his job for him. His biggest problem is probably that the public health authorities are a lot stupider than he is and continue to push boosters.

    I’d love to know what Pfizer is telling them privately. I’m gonna guess it’s not in email, thou

    • #19
  20. Front Seat Cat Member
    Front Seat Cat
    @FrontSeatCat

    Full Size Tabby (View Comment):

    I can’t really speak to turnabout rage, but Mrs. Tabby and I are not getting any “boosters” until more information is known. Of course we don’t believe anything government agencies (CDC) and officials and most media sources say, but that arose before it became clear that what the CDC, government officials, and most media said about the vaccine turned out not to be true.

    What I don’t understand is why so many (employers as well as governments) are so forcefully doubling down on forcing vaccinations the more it becomes clear that the benefits of the vaccines are not what had been advertised. Forcing vaccinations makes less and less sense from a community health standpoint, and further alienates more and more people, leading them to refrain from getting vaccinations that might actually be personally beneficial for them.

    All the colleges, many retail and other companies are still requiring masks indoors regardless of vax status – ?!  That tells you they don’t have confidence in anything.

    • #20
  21. Sandy Member
    Sandy
    @Sandy

    MarciN (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):
    Yes, the lack of emphasis on therapeutics (and even withholding of them (monoclonal antibodies) from Republican run states) is shocking and immoral. Fauci should be in jail.

    For this, I blame Fauci completely. To my mind, he owns this all the way.

    He has done the same thing with the flu for as long as I’ve been a mother, and I blame him for the pediatric deaths that occurred with the flu for years. (I don’t know what the current numbers are.)

    I did not realize this until I started following the current pandemic and his remarks about it. Before the pandemic, I could not conceive of how top-down, military-like, the CDC and NIH actually are because that is an outdated organization form in the private sector where I spend my time.

    He pushed the flu vaccine while simultaneously denigrating antibiotics for secondary infections and the doctors who prescribed them. He confused everyone–including the nation’s doctors. The old doctors would get a child (or any other patient, frankly) started immediately on an antibiotic when symptoms of a secondary infection first occurred. Better to be safe than sorry. Fauci’s anti-antibiotic blind spot got a lot of people killed, in my opinion.

    My problem with this guy is that he goes to extremes.

    The Internet is a wonderful thing. He got this way because no one challenged him.

    Fauci and whoever runs him. This—the killing of successful, cheap therapeutics and the pushing of untested, novel vaccines—was done in a coordinated, international fashion. RFK’s book lays out much of the hideous history. The amazing thing to me is how open it all is. 

     

    • #21
  22. Doug Kimball Thatcher
    Doug Kimball
    @DougKimball

    Hans Gruber Pfizer President (View Comment):

    Here is what is going on.

    I saw what you did there.  My response: been there, done that.

    • #22
  23. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    James Salerno (View Comment):

    This is a midterm year.

    They can finally acknowledge that the vaccine isn’t doing what it’s supposed to and they can blame all of the negative side effects on Trump rushing it through. They can say all the things normal people have been talking about but put their own twist on it.

    They might get a little traction on the vaccine but not the mandate, and certainly not on the various therapeutics that have proven effective while being essentially banned by government.

    • #23
  24. Stina Member
    Stina
    @CM

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):
    Yes, some people suffer myocarditis from the vaccine, but according to my (very libertarian) internist, you’re probably more likely to get myocarditis from COVID. Would the same people have gotten myocarditis if they were unvaccinated and had contracted COVID? We’ll never know.

    For under 21, the risk is higher with the vaccine than it is for clinical Covid.

    Stina, do you have a source for this?

    It seems unlikely to be true, to me, but I’m not sure. I haven’t seen any good data on the risk of the vaccine. It is true that the risk of clinical Covid is very low for people under 21, which alters the risk-benefit calculation. My own impression has been that it is unnecessary to vaccinate the young, particularly as there is some uncertainty about the possible risks of the vaccine.

    I ran numbers coming from several different studies. I should have kept the link to where I worked it out, but I did not. It’s something like 3.5 vs 6.3.

    https://ricochet.com/1106029/make-america-hypoxic-again/comment-page-4/#comment-5973362

    https://ricochet.com/1106029/make-america-hypoxic-again/comment-page-5/#comment-5973875

     

    • #24
  25. Stina Member
    Stina
    @CM

    https://ricochet.com/1106029/make-america-hypoxic-again/comment-page-5/#comment-5974366

    • #25
  26. Fastflyer Member
    Fastflyer
    @Fastflyer

    Front Seat Cat (View Comment):
    All we can do is make the best decisions we can for ourselves and family.

    Sorry, no can do, mandates for you.

    • #26
  27. Unsk Member
    Unsk
    @Unsk

    Western Chav: “The other problem is the counterfactuals. Yes, some people suffer myocarditis from the vaccine, but according to my (very libertarian) internist, you’re probably more likely to get myocarditis from COVID. Would the same people have gotten myocarditis if they were unvaccinated and had contracted COVID? We’ll never know. 

    Same with strokes. I know of several people who had strokes pre-vaccines after contracting COVID. But, some people seem to have the same reaction to the vaccine as your example above.”

    I call absolute BS..

    If the counterfactuals were true you would have seen an uptick from myocarditis in 2020  way before the vaccine, but until mRNA vaccines were administered myocarditis was  extremely rare.  Now sadly it is all too common. There is absolutely no scientific basis for what your internist said. 

     

    • #27
  28. Scott Wilmot Member
    Scott Wilmot
    @ScottWilmot

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    This meme is quite misleading.  This may not be your fault, Hans, as you probably got it from somewhere.

    Here is a transcript of the interview in question.  The very next sentence is:

    “The three doses, with the booster, they offer reasonable protection against hospitalization and deaths– and, again, that’s, I think, very good– and less protection against the infection.”

    He goes on to discuss efforts to develop a new vaccine booster specifically aimed at the Omicron variant.

    That the Pfizer CEO admits that his “vaccines” are close to worthless, and then has the balls to say that he has a 4th one coming out in March once everyone has had Omicron that will cure Omicron, is proof the mass formation psychosis has won the day.

    • #28
  29. Hans Gruber Pfizer President Inactive
    Hans Gruber Pfizer President
    @Pseudodionysius

    Scott Wilmot (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    This meme is quite misleading. This may not be your fault, Hans, as you probably got it from somewhere.

    Here is a transcript of the interview in question. The very next sentence is:

    “The three doses, with the booster, they offer reasonable protection against hospitalization and deaths– and, again, that’s, I think, very good– and less protection against the infection.”

    He goes on to discuss efforts to develop a new vaccine booster specifically aimed at the Omicron variant.

    That the Pfizer CEO admits that his “vaccines” are close to worthless, and then has the balls to say that he has a 4th one coming out in March once everyone has had Omicron that will cure Omicron, is proof the mass formation psychosis has won the day.

    “He’s a legitimate business man!”

    • #29
  30. Hans Gruber Pfizer President Inactive
    Hans Gruber Pfizer President
    @Pseudodionysius

    Pour a hot coffee into your lap

    • #30
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