A Real Threat to Democracy

 

I feel as if I’ve just been kicked in the gut by a good friend. He was, for many years, the epitome of intelligence and reason, with a lively sense of humor. We’ve been estranged for a while, mainly because of his political positions. After hearing one too many of his podcasts a few years ago, I pretty much avoided him. After reading one of his latest pieces on the Bari Weiss blog, I’ve decided we’re done. I’m talking about Jonah Goldberg.

This is not really a post about Jonah Goldberg. It’s about my bewilderment about the defaming of Republicans and Conservatives by using the broad-brush of assuming that we are all Donald Trump fanatics, who continually fawn over him and apologize for him. I think this viewpoint about who we are, who I am, is deeply flawed, and I can’t figure out why it persists.

Goldberg and others seem to refuse to accept that a huge number of those who voted for Trump—not even necessarily people whom I would call “Trump supporters”—were desperate to dislodge the DC Swamp. We didn’t really like Donald Trump, but it was clear that he was fearless and prepared to take on just about anyone. Many of us became convinced, particularly after the attacks on Trump after he was elected, that the Washington establishment was determined to protect every ounce of abusive power that they had. And I don’t think there was another Republican who had the guts to do that. That he was rude and crude and held disdain for proper etiquette was not relevant.

So, what am I so upset about? I feel that most Republicans and Conservatives are not sycophants to the person and platform of Trump. Most of us would never riot at the Capitol. Most of us would not dress like crazy Shamans. Most of also would not have the gumption that Trump displayed. But he was willing to do it on our behalf (and probably for his own motives).

Most of us dreaded the Tweets but liked that Trump got things done. Most of us disliked his personal attacks but liked his pushback on Xi. Most of us were annoyed at his bragging but were amazed that he was able to deal with Covid-19 the way he did.

What especially disturbs me about Jonah and the criticisms of others who hate Trump is that they are defaming most of us in the Republican Party and those who are Conservatives.

How does that help the party? How does that contribute productively to the future of this country? How does that help re-establish conservative values?

If some people are misguided, they aren’t the people who support Trump; they are the people who are determined to keep the edifices from crumbling. The rest of us are tired of the status quo and those who malign our institutions and values.

Jonah and his ilk would be better off exerting their energies against our real enemies.

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  1. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):
    I think it was a joke about your syntax. “For one year I went to a school that was…” would have been unequivocal, as opposed to “…that was 90% Jewish for one year.”

    I think he finally got it….;-)

    I guess, as Susan said, this is not a post about Goldberg.

    • #121
  2. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):
    I guess, as Susan said, this is not a post about Goldberg.

    When we get over 100 comments, which is amazing, I kind of figure all bets are off. So it’s okay. Especially when it’s friendly. . .

    • #122
  3. LibertyDefender Member
    LibertyDefender
    @LibertyDefender

    Franco (View Comment):

    LibertyDefender (View Comment):

    Franco (View Comment):

    LibertyDefender (View Comment):

    You wrote that you went to a school that was 90% Jewish for one year. Why was it 90% Jewish for only one year?

    Oh, I get it! Sloppy writing on my part! … it coulda been that a charismatic Christian came and converted about 35% of them to a fringe Christian cult. I forget. It was a long time ago.

    I wrote two fairly long involved comments and I could not understand why that was the only thing you saw fit to isolate and question. Hard to laugh at this point, but I get it now…

    Charismatic Christian, that’s good. Say good night, Franco.

    I was in elementary school – no older than 4th grade – when my father taught me a riddle I enjoyed then and have enjoyed ever since:

    Q: What’s the difference between a lady in church, and a lady in the bathtub?
    A: The lady in church has hope in her soul.

    Years later, I told that same joke to my engineering school classmates – smart people, generally. A surprisingly high percentage of them didn’t get the joke.

    If you got that joke in fourth grade, you were pretty advanced. I needed the bold letters to clue me in. And your father sounds a LOT like mine! LOL

    I agree.  If your father were entirely like mine, your father (and George Burns) would have taught you the proper response to 

    Say good night, Franco.

    • #123
  4. Franco Member
    Franco
    @Franco

    LibertyDefender (View Comment):

    Franco (View Comment):

    LibertyDefender (View Comment):

    Franco (View Comment):

    LibertyDefender (View Comment):

    You wrote that you went to a school that was 90% Jewish for one year. Why was it 90% Jewish for only one year?

    Oh, I get it! Sloppy writing on my part! … it coulda been that a charismatic Christian came and converted about 35% of them to a fringe Christian cult. I forget. It was a long time ago.

    I wrote two fairly long involved comments and I could not understand why that was the only thing you saw fit to isolate and question. Hard to laugh at this point, but I get it now…

    Charismatic Christian, that’s good. Say good night, Franco.

    I was in elementary school – no older than 4th grade – when my father taught me a riddle I enjoyed then and have enjoyed ever since:

    Q: What’s the difference between a lady in church, and a lady in the bathtub?
    A: The lady in church has hope in her soul.

    Years later, I told that same joke to my engineering school classmates – smart people, generally. A surprisingly high percentage of them didn’t get the joke.

    If you got that joke in fourth grade, you were pretty advanced. I needed the bold letters to clue me in. And your father sounds a LOT like mine! LOL

    I agree. If your father were entirely like mine, your father (and George Burns) would have taught you the proper response to

    Say good night, Franco.

    The link doesn’t work. I tried before. Is it a refence to Gracie Allen?

    • #124
  5. Miffed White Male Member
    Miffed White Male
    @MiffedWhiteMale

    Franco (View Comment):

    LibertyDefender (View Comment):

    Franco (View Comment):

    LibertyDefender (View Comment):

    Franco (View Comment):

    LibertyDefender (View Comment):

    You wrote that you went to a school that was 90% Jewish for one year. Why was it 90% Jewish for only one year?

    Oh, I get it! Sloppy writing on my part! … it coulda been that a charismatic Christian came and converted about 35% of them to a fringe Christian cult. I forget. It was a long time ago.

    I wrote two fairly long involved comments and I could not understand why that was the only thing you saw fit to isolate and question. Hard to laugh at this point, but I get it now…

    Charismatic Christian, that’s good. Say good night, Franco.

    I was in elementary school – no older than 4th grade – when my father taught me a riddle I enjoyed then and have enjoyed ever since:

    Q: What’s the difference between a lady in church, and a lady in the bathtub?
    A: The lady in church has hope in her soul.

    Years later, I told that same joke to my engineering school classmates – smart people, generally. A surprisingly high percentage of them didn’t get the joke.

    If you got that joke in fourth grade, you were pretty advanced. I needed the bold letters to clue me in. And your father sounds a LOT like mine! LOL

    I agree. If your father were entirely like mine, your father (and George Burns) would have taught you the proper response to

    Say good night, Franco.

    The link doesn’t work. I tried before. Is it a refence to Gracie Allen?

    Gracie never said “Good night Gracie” in response to George saying “Say Goodnight Gracie”.  She just said “Goodnight”.

    George claimed in later years that they just never thought of that, which I find hard to believe.

     

    • #125
  6. LibertyDefender Member
    LibertyDefender
    @LibertyDefender

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    Franco (View Comment):

    LibertyDefender (View Comment):

    If your father were entirely like mine, your father (and George Burns) would have taught you the proper response to

    Say good night, Franco.

    The link doesn’t work. I tried before. Is it a refence to Gracie Allen?

    Gracie never said “Good night Gracie” in response to George saying “Say Goodnight Gracie”. She just said “Goodnight”.

    George claimed in later years that they just never thought of that, which I find hard to believe.

    The link is to your Ricochet.com profile, intended only to insure that you were notified of the comment.

    I am skeptical that Gracie never said “Good night Gracie,” as I have clear memories of seeing and hearing her doing so many times, almost always turning her head to look directly at the camera and smiling as she delivered the punch line.  Why Google would choose to conceal that from the public, I can’t imagine.

    As a nod to the original subject of the original post, even though it’s not a post about Jonah Goldberg, one truly disappointing thing about Jonah Goldberg’s descent into madness is that he did indeed have a sense of humor say, a decade and longer ago.  To become the NeverTrumper he is today, he must necessarily intentionally stifle his sense of humor.  What a horrible thing to do to oneself.

     

    • #126
  7. Miffed White Male Member
    Miffed White Male
    @MiffedWhiteMale

    LibertyDefender (View Comment):
    I am skeptical that Gracie never said “Good night Gracie,” as I have clear memories of seeing and hearing her doing so many times, almost always turning her head to look directly at the camera and smiling as she delivered the punch line.  Why Google would choose to conceal that from the public, I can’t imagine.

    I don’t think you’ll find a much better primary source on this topic than George Burns:

    Here’s George Burns on the topic, “It’s a show-business myth that Gracie replied to my request to “Say goodnight, Gracie,” by saying, “Good night, Gracie.” In fact, that’s probably one of the most misquoted lines in theater history. Maybe she said it once, but I don’t even remember that. She simply said, “Good night.” There were many reasons for that, the main one was that I just never thought of it, from now on she will have said it.”

    • #127
  8. Henry Racette Member
    Henry Racette
    @HenryRacette

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    LibertyDefender (View Comment):
    I am skeptical that Gracie never said “Good night Gracie,” as I have clear memories of seeing and hearing her doing so many times, almost always turning her head to look directly at the camera and smiling as she delivered the punch line. Why Google would choose to conceal that from the public, I can’t imagine.

    I don’t think you’ll find a much better primary source on this topic than George Burns:

    Here’s George Burns on the topic, “It’s a show-business myth that Gracie replied to my request to “Say goodnight, Gracie,” by saying, “Good night, Gracie.” In fact, that’s probably one of the most misquoted lines in theater history. Maybe she said it once, but I don’t even remember that. She simply said, “Good night.” There were many reasons for that, the main one was that I just never thought of it, from now on she will have said it.”

    Now there is a Mandela Effect moment for you. I also was sure I’d heard it multiple times, but apparently not.

    • #128
  9. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    LibertyDefender (View Comment):
    I am skeptical that Gracie never said “Good night Gracie,” as I have clear memories of seeing and hearing her doing so many times, almost always turning her head to look directly at the camera and smiling as she delivered the punch line. Why Google would choose to conceal that from the public, I can’t imagine.

    I don’t think you’ll find a much better primary source on this topic than George Burns:

    Here’s George Burns on the topic, “It’s a show-business myth that Gracie replied to my request to “Say goodnight, Gracie,” by saying, “Good night, Gracie.” In fact, that’s probably one of the most misquoted lines in theater history. Maybe she said it once, but I don’t even remember that. She simply said, “Good night.” There were many reasons for that, the main one was that I just never thought of it, from now on she will have said it.”

    Now there is a Mandela Effect moment for you. I also was sure I’d heard it multiple times, but apparently not.

    If you two are old enough, you probably heard Dan Rowan’s “Say good night, Dick” followed by Dick Martin saying “Good night, Dick” every single week.

    • #129
  10. Miffed White Male Member
    Miffed White Male
    @MiffedWhiteMale

    Percival (View Comment):

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    LibertyDefender (View Comment):
    I am skeptical that Gracie never said “Good night Gracie,” as I have clear memories of seeing and hearing her doing so many times, almost always turning her head to look directly at the camera and smiling as she delivered the punch line. Why Google would choose to conceal that from the public, I can’t imagine.

    I don’t think you’ll find a much better primary source on this topic than George Burns:

    Here’s George Burns on the topic, “It’s a show-business myth that Gracie replied to my request to “Say goodnight, Gracie,” by saying, “Good night, Gracie.” In fact, that’s probably one of the most misquoted lines in theater history. Maybe she said it once, but I don’t even remember that. She simply said, “Good night.” There were many reasons for that, the main one was that I just never thought of it, from now on she will have said it.”

    Now there is a Mandela Effect moment for you. I also was sure I’d heard it multiple times, but apparently not.

    If you two are old enough, you probably heard Dan Rowan’s “Say good night, Dick” followed by Dick Martin saying “Good night, Dick” every single week.

    Yeah, that’s mentioned in the link.

    • #130
  11. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    Percival (View Comment):

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    LibertyDefender (View Comment):
    I am skeptical that Gracie never said “Good night Gracie,” as I have clear memories of seeing and hearing her doing so many times, almost always turning her head to look directly at the camera and smiling as she delivered the punch line. Why Google would choose to conceal that from the public, I can’t imagine.

    I don’t think you’ll find a much better primary source on this topic than George Burns:

    Here’s George Burns on the topic, “It’s a show-business myth that Gracie replied to my request to “Say goodnight, Gracie,” by saying, “Good night, Gracie.” In fact, that’s probably one of the most misquoted lines in theater history. Maybe she said it once, but I don’t even remember that. She simply said, “Good night.” There were many reasons for that, the main one was that I just never thought of it, from now on she will have said it.”

    Now there is a Mandela Effect moment for you. I also was sure I’d heard it multiple times, but apparently not.

    If you two are old enough, you probably heard Dan Rowan’s “Say good night, Dick” followed by Dick Martin saying “Good night, Dick” every single week.

    Yeah, that’s mentioned in the link.

    I didn’t follow the link.

    • #131
  12. LibertyDefender Member
    LibertyDefender
    @LibertyDefender

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    LibertyDefender (View Comment):
    I am skeptical that Gracie never said “Good night Gracie,” as I have clear memories of seeing and hearing her doing so many times, almost always turning her head to look directly at the camera and smiling as she delivered the punch line. Why Google would choose to conceal that from the public, I can’t imagine.

    I don’t think you’ll find a much better primary source on this topic than George Burns:

    Here’s George Burns on the topic, “It’s a show-business myth that Gracie replied to my request to “Say goodnight, Gracie,” by saying, “Good night, Gracie.” In fact, that’s probably one of the most misquoted lines in theater history. Maybe she said it once, but I don’t even remember that. She simply said, “Good night.” There were many reasons for that, the main one was that I just never thought of it, from now on she will have said it.”

    Are we certain that legendsrevealed.com is as reliable as, say, The Unimpeachable Source?

    • #132
  13. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    Franco (View Comment):

    LibertyDefender (View Comment):

    Franco (View Comment):

    LibertyDefender (View Comment):

    Franco (View Comment):

    LibertyDefender (View Comment):

    You wrote that you went to a school that was 90% Jewish for one year. Why was it 90% Jewish for only one year?

    Oh, I get it! Sloppy writing on my part! … it coulda been that a charismatic Christian came and converted about 35% of them to a fringe Christian cult. I forget. It was a long time ago.

    I wrote two fairly long involved comments and I could not understand why that was the only thing you saw fit to isolate and question. Hard to laugh at this point, but I get it now…

    Charismatic Christian, that’s good. Say good night, Franco.

    I was in elementary school – no older than 4th grade – when my father taught me a riddle I enjoyed then and have enjoyed ever since:

    Q: What’s the difference between a lady in church, and a lady in the bathtub?
    A: The lady in church has hope in her soul.

    Years later, I told that same joke to my engineering school classmates – smart people, generally. A surprisingly high percentage of them didn’t get the joke.

    If you got that joke in fourth grade, you were pretty advanced. I needed the bold letters to clue me in. And your father sounds a LOT like mine! LOL

    I agree. If your father were entirely like mine, your father (and George Burns) would have taught you the proper response to

    Say good night, Franco.

    The link doesn’t work. I tried before. Is it a refence to Gracie Allen?

    Gracie never said “Good night Gracie” in response to George saying “Say Goodnight Gracie”. She just said “Goodnight”.

    George claimed in later years that they just never thought of that, which I find hard to believe.

    Well, that rumor has been around for a long time then.  I remember hearing it is the 60s.

    • #133
  14. Randy Webster Inactive
    Randy Webster
    @RandyWebster

    BastiatJunior (View Comment):

    Annefy (View Comment):
    During a previous interaction, she patiently explained to me how difficult those four years were for “smart” people (like her) and that I wasn’t capable of understanding the trauma it caused.

    This particular sentence makes my blood boil.

     

    Actually, I don’t understand the trauma it caused.  I put up with eight years of Obama without being traumatized.

    • #134
  15. Douglas Pratt Coolidge
    Douglas Pratt
    @DouglasPratt

    Randy Webster (View Comment):

    BastiatJunior (View Comment):

    Annefy (View Comment):
    During a previous interaction, she patiently explained to me how difficult those four years were for “smart” people (like her) and that I wasn’t capable of understanding the trauma it caused.

    This particular sentence makes my blood boil.

     

    Actually, I don’t understand the trauma it caused. I put up with eight years of Obama without being traumatized.

    Nauseated, yes. Traumatized, no.

    • #135
  16. Randy Webster Inactive
    Randy Webster
    @RandyWebster

    Stad (View Comment):
    I think Biden is a bigger jerk, lout, and boorish person than Trump ever was . .

    But Biden is a bigger jerk, lout, and boorish person than Trump in a more acceptable way.

    • #136
  17. DrewInWisconsin, Oaf Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Oaf
    @DrewInWisconsin

    Randy Webster (View Comment):

    Stad (View Comment):
    I think Biden is a bigger jerk, lout, and boorish person than Trump ever was . .

    But Biden is a bigger jerk, lout, and boorish person than Trump in a more acceptable way.

    The “Washington Way”?

    • #137
  18. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    DrewInWisconsin, Oaf (View Comment):

    Randy Webster (View Comment):

    Stad (View Comment):
    I think Biden is a bigger jerk, lout, and boorish person than Trump ever was . .

    But Biden is a bigger jerk, lout, and boorish person than Trump in a more acceptable way.

    The “Washington Way”?

    Wishing misery and death to millions of Americans in his Christmas message?

    • #138
  19. dukenaltum Inactive
    dukenaltum
    @dukenaltum

    I only apply the word traitor to Jonah Goldberg, Jonathan V. Last, Rob Long, all the Bushes, Bill Kristol, Peggy Noonan, and anyone on the Lincoln Project. I purchased their magazines and books for decades while listening to their podcast while I purchased whatever product they might promote out of loyalty to them and a sense that their voices needed to be heard and funded.

    I would have voted in the general election for any of the men and woman (except for Kasich and Christie) who ran in 2016 over Donald Trump because I didn’t trust him and distrusted his celebrity more, but he won the Primary. Even then. my wife and I didn’t decide to vote until the last minute because We would never vote for any Clinton.  I voted for Trump and held my nose just like I did in the previous general elections with Romney, McCain, Bush, Dole, and Bush.

    What did my loyalty to all these approximate conservatives in the Republican Party and their cheerleaders in the Conservative press achieve when Trump won…? Contempt and disparagement from people for the man they made inevitable by their series of endless failures to even slow the Left and protect the American people.

     

    These “Cultured Conservatives” don’t need to be heard any longer because their complete raison d’être has vanished.

    • #139
  20. DrewInWisconsin, Oaf Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Oaf
    @DrewInWisconsin

    dukenaltum (View Comment):
    I only apply the word traitor to Jonah Goldberg, Jonathan V. Last, Rob Long, all the Bushes, Bill Kristol, Peggy Noonan, and anyone on the Lincoln Project.

    But you’re leaving out so many . . .

    • #140
  21. dukenaltum Inactive
    dukenaltum
    @dukenaltum

    DrewInWisconsin, Oaf (View Comment):

    dukenaltum (View Comment):
    I only apply the word traitor to Jonah Goldberg, Jonathan V. Last, Rob Long, all the Bushes, Bill Kristol, Peggy Noonan, and anyone on the Lincoln Project.

    But you’re leaving out so many . . . 

    Yes… True, I started but the list was just too exhaustive.  

     

    • #141
  22. Franco Member
    Franco
    @Franco

    dukenaltum (View Comment):

    I only apply the word traitor to Jonah Goldberg, Jonathan V. Last, Rob Long, all the Bushes, Bill Kristol, Peggy Noonan, and anyone on the Lincoln Project. I purchased their magazines and books for decades while listening to their podcast while I purchased whatever product they might promote out of loyalty to them and a sense that their voices needed to be heard and funded.

    I would have voted in the general election for any of the men and woman (except for Kasich and Christie) who ran in 2016 over Donald Trump because I didn’t trust him and distrusted his celebrity more, but he won the Primary. Even then. my wife and I didn’t decide to vote until the last minute because We would never vote for any Clinton. I voted for Trump and held my nose just like I did in the previous general elections with Romney, McCain, Bush, Dole, and Bush.

    What did my loyalty to all these approximate conservatives in the Republican Party and their cheerleaders in the Conservative press achieve when Trump won…? Contempt and disparagement from people for the man they made inevitable by their series of endless failures to even slow the Left and protect the American people.

     

    These “Cultured Conservatives” don’t need to be heard any longer because their complete raison d’être has vanished.

    Bravo.

    And it’s telling to me that none of these people ever acknowledge those with enough neutrality to have been very skeptical of this man, and might not even really like him, to conclude they might have got him wrong after seeing actions, activity and healthy US self promotion , and that perspective in any way.  We’re all in a cult? 

    • #142
  23. Henry Castaigne Member
    Henry Castaigne
    @HenryCastaigne

    are   (View Comment):

    dukenaltum (View Comment):

    I only apply the word traitor to Jonah Goldberg, Jonathan V. Last, Rob Long, all the Bushes, Bill Kristol, Peggy Noonan, and anyone on the Lincoln Project. I purchased their magazines and books for decades while listening to their podcast while I purchased whatever product they might promote out of loyalty to them and a sense that their voices needed to be heard and funded.

    I would have voted in the general election for any of the men and woman (except for Kasich and Christie) who ran in 2016 over Donald Trump because I didn’t trust him and distrusted his celebrity more, but he won the Primary. Even then. my wife and I didn’t decide to vote until the last minute because We would never vote for any Clinton. I voted for Trump and held my nose just like I did in the previous general elections with Romney, McCain, Bush, Dole, and Bush.

    What did my loyalty to all these approximate conservatives in the Republican Party and their cheerleaders in the Conservative press achieve when Trump won…? Contempt and disparagement from people for the man they made inevitable by their series of endless failures to even slow the Left and protect the American people.

     

    These “Cultured Conservatives” don’t need to be heard any longer because their complete raison d’être has vanished.

    Bravo.

    And it’s telling to me that none of these people ever acknowledge those with enough neutrality to have been very skeptical of this man, and might not even really like him, to conclude they might have got him wrong after seeing actions, activity and healthy US self promotion , and that perspective in any way. We’re all in a cult?

    Ben Shapiro and Thomas Sowell are the only ones that I can think of who changed their mind based on changing evidence.

    • #143
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