It Starts … HR Asking for Vaccination Documentation

 

I found the following email from my HR department at work this morning. I have been vaccinated and have had the booster, but I have a problem with this. I sent HR a polite email suggesting that at this point this was not a good idea. Not even sure it is legal. What say you?

“In order to determine the best route in moving forward as a private employer, we are asking ALL staff to provide proof of current vaccination status.

Please see HR no later than Friday, December 3rd    Employees are NOT to report/submit this information to their supervisors. Report proof ONLY to the Human Resources Department. HR will need to physically see your documentation, and a copy will be retained your confidential file.

You must provide one of the following:

  • a copy of the record of immunization from a health care provider or pharmacy;
  • a copy of the COVID-19 Vaccination Record Card;
  • a copy of medical records documenting the vaccination;
  • a copy of immunization records from a public health or State immunization information system; or
  • a copy of any other official documentation verifying vaccination with information on the vaccine name, date(s) of administration, and the name of health care professional or clinic site administering vaccine.

If you are currently unvaccinated you must also make HR aware of your vaccination status. The HR Department will keep all personal vaccination information confidential.

Until Florida employers receive further clarification of our obligations, we will only be gathering vaccination status at this time.

If you have any questions please contact HR. “

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  1. Fake John/Jane Galt Coolidge
    Fake John/Jane Galt
    @FakeJohnJaneGalt

    I had to submit mine by this Friday.

    If you are looking for a job most companies are requiring proof before hiring.

    • #1
  2. Hans Gruber Pfizer President Coolidge
    Hans Gruber Pfizer President
    @Pseudodionysius

    If you live in the United States, threatening them with a lawsuit via a Notice of Liability would be my first recommended move. As a very successful criminal, I have some authoritative experience on changing the behavior of people who work in swivel chairs in office towers.

    #GruberNator

    • #2
  3. Hans Gruber Pfizer President Coolidge
    Hans Gruber Pfizer President
    @Pseudodionysius

    And, before anyone asks, just because I fell out of that office tower, is no reason to ignore my advice. That was merely an implementation bug, like our vaccines which we’ll get right after the 22nd booster and you grow your 4th mechanical arm out of your back like Doctor Octopus.

     

    • #3
  4. Dr. Bastiat Member
    Dr. Bastiat
    @drbastiat

    Yikes

    • #4
  5. Front Seat Cat Member
    Front Seat Cat
    @FrontSeatCat

    This is nuts, and I wish everyone would reject it because there’s strength in numbers. You might ask if it is mandatory to give this info or not.  Ask your supervisor. My sister worked for the state of MD and had to give the same info, but she put in for retirement and so wasn’t concerned. I think these measures are going to get worse. If you are in FL, the rules have changed and you may be able to opt out.

    • #5
  6. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    I don’t know the law, but could a class-action suit be raised? That might intimidate the heck out of some employers! There is no federal mandate!

    • #6
  7. MWD B612 "Dawg" Member
    MWD B612 "Dawg"
    @danok1

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    I don’t know the law, but could a class-action suit be raised? That might intimidate the heck out of some employers! There is no federal mandate!

    There doesn’t have to be a federal mandate if the corporations carry it out “on their own.” You know, like fascists.

    • #7
  8. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    MWD B612 "Dawg" (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    I don’t know the law, but could a class-action suit be raised? That might intimidate the heck out of some employers! There is no federal mandate!

    There doesn’t have to be a federal mandate if the corporations carry it out “on their own.” You know, like fascists.

    Okay. What about a violation of privacy?

    • #8
  9. James Salerno Coolidge
    James Salerno
    @JamesSalerno

    Nobody working a fake job like HR has a spine. Don’t answer their emails. Make them confront you. It’s the last thing they want to do. 

    • #9
  10. MWD B612 "Dawg" Member
    MWD B612 "Dawg"
    @danok1

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    MWD B612 "Dawg" (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    I don’t know the law, but could a class-action suit be raised? That might intimidate the heck out of some employers! There is no federal mandate!

    There doesn’t have to be a federal mandate if the corporations carry it out “on their own.” You know, like fascists.

    Okay. What about a violation of privacy?

    Many, if not most, employers these days have a clause in the application stating that one is applying for an “at will” position. Either party may terminate employment at any time for any (or no) reason. So “violation of privacy” doesn’t really apply. (Obviously, union shops will have a different rule depending on the contract negotiated.)

    I’m not a lawyer, but it seems to me that unless one is in a “protected class,” the company can fire employees who don’t comply. Even those in a protected class might have trouble fighting it, because the reason isn’t because of the employee’s “protected” characteristic.

    (Edited to correct typos.)

    • #10
  11. Terry Mott Member
    Terry Mott
    @TerryMott

    How does HIPPA figure in to all this?

    • #11
  12. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    Once HR has more influence on a company’s work and employment policies than line executives it is a true bureaucracy and not a productive work environment for individuals. This is the very best reflection of the defects within big business and big government.

    • #12
  13. Hammer, The (Ryan M) Member
    Hammer, The (Ryan M)
    @RyanM

    Hopefully there is a major backlash against this stuff. It has gotten quite insane.

    • #13
  14. Hammer, The (Ryan M) Member
    Hammer, The (Ryan M)
    @RyanM

    Hammer, The (Ryan M) (View Comment):

    Hopefully there is a major backlash against this stuff. It has gotten quite insane.

    An anecdote along these lines.  My wife works for the state (WA) and they have a vaccine mandate that went into effect this October.  She applied for a religious exemption, and it was granted, but they said “there’s no accommodation” and were going to fire her anyway.  She went ahead and got the vaccine, but they still punished her by taking away 3 weeks of pay.  She’s filed a grievance and hopefully will win.

    But what she discovered along the way is that there were A LOT of employees in a similar position.  They tried to keep it really quiet, but there was a huge number of people who quit because of the mandate; most of these state agencies are now really suffering.  I don’t think they’ll get the message (and their response is generally a giant middle finger – they don’t care about their employees at all, and they are happy to lose people who don’t “think right.”), but if this is happening in liberal WA state, it is probably happening to a much larger extent everywhere else.  Americans need to stand up and make themselves heard.  One thing we know is that, if we make enough noise, politicians and business are generally self-interested, and they will be forced to respond.  The power of their propaganda is weakening; and the power of our anger is increasing.

    • #14
  15. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    Hammer, The (Ryan M) (View Comment):

    Hammer, The (Ryan M) (View Comment):

    Hopefully there is a major backlash against this stuff. It has gotten quite insane.

    An anecdote along these lines. My wife works for the state (WA) and they have a vaccine mandate that went into effect this October. She applied for a religious exemption, and it was granted, but they said “there’s no accommodation” and were going to fire her anyway. She went ahead and got the vaccine, but they still punished her by taking away 3 weeks of pay. She’s filed a grievance and hopefully will win.

    But what she discovered along the way is that there were A LOT of employees in a similar position. They tried to keep it really quiet, but there was a huge number of people who quit because of the mandate; most of these state agencies are now really suffering. I don’t think they’ll get the message (and their response is generally a giant middle finger – they don’t care about their employees at all, and they are happy to lose people who don’t “think right.”), but if this is happening in liberal WA state, it is probably happening to a much larger extent everywhere else. Americans need to stand up and make themselves heard. One thing we know is that, if we make enough noise, politicians and business are generally self-interested, and they will be forced to respond. The power of their propaganda is weakening; and the power of our anger is increasing.

    Sounds like a real living bureaucracy principally interested in preserving itself and its power.

    • #15
  16. Hammer, The (Ryan M) Member
    Hammer, The (Ryan M)
    @RyanM

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Hammer, The (Ryan M) (View Comment):

    Hammer, The (Ryan M) (View Comment):

    Hopefully there is a major backlash against this stuff. It has gotten quite insane.

    An anecdote along these lines. My wife works for the state (WA) and they have a vaccine mandate that went into effect this October. She applied for a religious exemption, and it was granted, but they said “there’s no accommodation” and were going to fire her anyway. She went ahead and got the vaccine, but they still punished her by taking away 3 weeks of pay. She’s filed a grievance and hopefully will win.

    But what she discovered along the way is that there were A LOT of employees in a similar position. They tried to keep it really quiet, but there was a huge number of people who quit because of the mandate; most of these state agencies are now really suffering. I don’t think they’ll get the message (and their response is generally a giant middle finger – they don’t care about their employees at all, and they are happy to lose people who don’t “think right.”), but if this is happening in liberal WA state, it is probably happening to a much larger extent everywhere else. Americans need to stand up and make themselves heard. One thing we know is that, if we make enough noise, politicians and business are generally self-interested, and they will be forced to respond. The power of their propaganda is weakening; and the power of our anger is increasing.

    Sounds like a real living bureaucracy principally interested in preserving itself and its power.

    The very definition of bureaucracy.

    • #16
  17. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    Hammer, The (Ryan M) (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Hammer, The (Ryan M) (View Comment):

    Hammer, The (Ryan M) (View Comment):

    Hopefully there is a major backlash against this stuff. It has gotten quite insane.

    An anecdote along these lines. My wife works for the state (WA) and they have a vaccine mandate that went into effect this October. She applied for a religious exemption, and it was granted, but they said “there’s no accommodation” and were going to fire her anyway. She went ahead and got the vaccine, but they still punished her by taking away 3 weeks of pay. She’s filed a grievance and hopefully will win.

    But what she discovered along the way is that there were A LOT of employees in a similar position. They tried to keep it really quiet, but there was a huge number of people who quit because of the mandate; most of these state agencies are now really suffering. I don’t think they’ll get the message (and their response is generally a giant middle finger – they don’t care about their employees at all, and they are happy to lose people who don’t “think right.”), but if this is happening in liberal WA state, it is probably happening to a much larger extent everywhere else. Americans need to stand up and make themselves heard. One thing we know is that, if we make enough noise, politicians and business are generally self-interested, and they will be forced to respond. The power of their propaganda is weakening; and the power of our anger is increasing.

    Sounds like a real living bureaucracy principally interested in preserving itself and its power.

    The very definition of bureaucracy.

    I learned this in the field. When I joined the U. S.  Treasury Department my first assignment included directing a project that would eventually convert 40 million Social Security checks produced and  mailed monthly to electronic Direct Deposits. Later I served almost a decade as a Regional Disbursing Officer and as Chief Disbursing Officer engaged over time in closing several field offices and reducing employment by more than 1,000 and operating expenses by tens of millions of dollars with the implementation of electronic direct deposit to replace most government issued check payments. Then I was able to observe how none of these reductions actually showed up in reduced government spending because the larger Treasury bureaucracy found new things to do. I learned a lot.

    • #17
  18. Hammer, The (Ryan M) Member
    Hammer, The (Ryan M)
    @RyanM

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Hammer, The (Ryan M) (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    [snip]

    Sounds like a real living bureaucracy principally interested in preserving itself and its power.

    The very definition of bureaucracy.

    I learned this in the field. When I joined the U. S. Treasury Department my first assignment included directing a project that would eventually convert 40 million Social Security checks produced and mailed monthly to electronic Direct Deposits. Later I served almost a decade as a Regional Disbursing Officer and as Chief Disbursing Officer engaged over time in closing several field offices and reducing employment by more than 1,000 and operating expenses by tens of millions of dollars with the implementation of electronic direct deposit to replace most government issued check payments. Then I was able to observe how none of these reductions actually showed up in reduced government spending because the larger Treasury bureaucracy found new things to do. I learned a lot.

    Yep.  I also began my work experience with the Federal Bureau of Land Management, and learned quite a lot.  Since then, my wife and I have been involved (in one way or another) with the Department of Children and Families…  and have also learned a lot.  I had a conversation with another attorney (who is very far to my left, politically) yesterday, and mentioned that we would be so much better off abandoning the whole thing and just leaving people alone.  Why do we expect that this dysfunctional group of bureaucrats can do any better at “raising children” than can even the worst parents?  She agreed with me.  Of course, we exaggerate, some.  My long-running motto has been:  “there is no problem so big that the government cannot step in and make it worse,” and that remains true.  We were discussing “trans” issues (child removed from parents and placed in a foster home that consists of three women all “in a long term relationship” with one another, sharing a bed; one of whom claims to be a man; kid now believes that he is a female … go figure.  Department sees nothing wrong with all of this and simply starts referring to the child by his “chosen gender identity.”), and this liberal attorney agreed that things have gotten absolutely insane.

    • #18
  19. kedavis Member
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Hammer, The (Ryan M) (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Hammer, The (Ryan M) (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    [snip]

    Sounds like a real living bureaucracy principally interested in preserving itself and its power.

    The very definition of bureaucracy.

    I learned this in the field. When I joined the U. S. Treasury Department my first assignment included directing a project that would eventually convert 40 million Social Security checks produced and mailed monthly to electronic Direct Deposits. Later I served almost a decade as a Regional Disbursing Officer and as Chief Disbursing Officer engaged over time in closing several field offices and reducing employment by more than 1,000 and operating expenses by tens of millions of dollars with the implementation of electronic direct deposit to replace most government issued check payments. Then I was able to observe how none of these reductions actually showed up in reduced government spending because the larger Treasury bureaucracy found new things to do. I learned a lot.

    Yep. I also began my work experience with the Federal Bureau of Land Management, and learned quite a lot. Since then, my wife and I have been involved (in one way or another) with the Department of Children and Families… and have also learned a lot. I had a conversation with another attorney (who is very far to my left, politically) yesterday, and mentioned that we would be so much better off abandoning the whole thing and just leaving people alone. Why do we expect that this dysfunctional group of bureaucrats can do any better at “raising children” than can even the worst parents? She agreed with me. Of course, we exaggerate, some. My long-running motto has been: “there is no problem so big that the government cannot step in and make it worse,” and that remains true. We were discussing “trans” issues (child removed from parents and placed in a foster home that consists of three women all “in a long term relationship” with one another, sharing a bed; one of whom claims to be a man; kid now believes that he is a female … go figure. Department sees nothing wrong with all of this and simply starts referring to the child by his “chosen gender identity.”), and this liberal attorney agreed that things have gotten absolutely insane.

    But I bet they – including the one you mention – still voted for Biden.

    It sounds like people I’ve mentioned before, neighbors when I lived in Phoenix and even some relatives:  “The Democrats have really screwed things up!  We have to elect more Democrats to fix it!”

    • #19
  20. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    Hammer, The (Ryan M) (View Comment):
    We were discussing “trans” issues (child removed from parents and placed in a foster home that consists of three women all “in a long term relationship” with one another, sharing a bed; one of whom claims to be a man; kid now believes that he is a female … go figure.  Department sees nothing wrong with all of this and simply starts referring to the child by his “chosen gender identity.”), and this liberal attorney agreed that things have gotten absolutely insane.

    This is the kind of situation that drives me insane. Talk about ruining a child’s life . . . 

    • #20
  21. Hammer, The (Ryan M) Member
    Hammer, The (Ryan M)
    @RyanM

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Hammer, The (Ryan M) (View Comment):
    We were discussing “trans” issues (child removed from parents and placed in a foster home that consists of three women all “in a long term relationship” with one another, sharing a bed; one of whom claims to be a man; kid now believes that he is a female … go figure. Department sees nothing wrong with all of this and simply starts referring to the child by his “chosen gender identity.”), and this liberal attorney agreed that things have gotten absolutely insane.

    This is the kind of situation that drives me insane. Talk about ruining a child’s life . . .

    Yep. And it is scary how common this sort of thing actually is.

    • #21
  22. Stad Coolidge
    Stad
    @Stad

    Send them a copy of the HIPPA law and tell them you aren’t going to aid and abet them breaking the law . . .

    • #22
  23. Caryn Thatcher
    Caryn
    @Caryn

    Interesting.  I work for a large health care system and just minutes ago received a message from our CEO saying that the federal mandate for healthcare workers has been halted by court injunction.  As a result, “This means that, come Jan. 4, unless there is further legal action, caregivers may continue to provide patient care services regardless of their COVID-19 vaccination status,” he stated.

    They are asking us to attest to our status so that they can “…ensure we have appropriate safety protocols in place for our caregivers during this challenging time.”  I assume this includes having appropriate personal protective equipment available should we return to a time when masks are no longer required even for those who are vaccinated.  The attestation form asks our status and which vaccine and when given if we are vaccinated.  We sign that what we provide is true.  I really don’t think this is unreasonable.  On the other hand, asking for copies of medical records, etc. is a violation of medical privacy and should be resisted on those grounds.  Perhaps you can offer to sign a statement attesting to your status and leave it at that.  It really doesn’t violate HIPAA rules because those cover release of the information without your consent and your employer is asking for that consent.  

    • #23
  24. kedavis Member
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Dave L: It starts….

    I would have gone with:

     

    • #24
  25. Dave L Member
    Dave L
    @DaveL

    In a follow on conversation with HR I was told the vaccination mandate is coming from multiple Federal sources not just Medicare which a lower court blocked. For one source there is a deadline of December 5th. The HR rep said our agency would face problems if we did not comply and that they were guided by the agency lawyers in what actions to take.

    • #25
  26. Caryn Thatcher
    Caryn
    @Caryn

    Dave L (View Comment):

    In a follow on conversation with HR I was told the vaccination mandate is coming from multiple Federal sources not just Medicare which a lower court blocked. For one source there is a deadline of December 5th. The HR rep said our agency would face problems if we did not comply and that they were guided by the agency lawyers in what actions to take.

    Well, there’s complying and there’s turning over private medical records.  See if signing a form saying that you’re vaccinated is good enough.  It seems to be good enough for this large academic health system that employs me.  

    • #26
  27. MarciN Member
    MarciN
    @MarciN

    Hammer, The (Ryan M) (View Comment):
    We were discussing “trans” issues (child removed from parents and placed in a foster home that consists of three women all “in a long term relationship” with one another, sharing a bed; one of whom claims to be a man; kid now believes that he is a female … go figure.  Department sees nothing wrong with all of this and simply starts referring to the child by his “chosen gender identity.”),

    This is a crime against this child.

     

    • #27
  28. Steve Fast Coolidge
    Steve Fast
    @SteveFast

    I would ignore the mass e-mails until they start coming after you personally. Make HR work for it to see if they really, really want the information. When they finally pin you down, ask for their legal authority to require the information. Then give them one reason after another why you should not have to comply. If you’re willing to sign a statement but not provide copies of documents, then offer to do that much. Wear them down by being reasonable, persistent, and not belligerent. Cite HIPAA, ADA, religious exemptions, medical privacy, any state laws you can find, etc. Try to run out the clock. Hopefully the next crisis will come along or the directive will have changed before they get around to taking action against you.If that point comes, you can always decide whether or not to comply.

    • #28
  29. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Caryn (View Comment):

    Interesting. I work for a large health care system and just minutes ago received a message from our CEO saying that the federal mandate for healthcare workers has been halted by court injunction. As a result, “This means that, come Jan. 4, unless there is further legal action, caregivers may continue to provide patient care services regardless of their COVID-19 vaccination status,” he stated.

    They are asking us to attest to our status so that they can “…ensure we have appropriate safety protocols in place for our caregivers during this challenging time.” I assume this includes having appropriate personal protective equipment available should we return to a time when masks are no longer required even for those who are vaccinated. The attestation form asks our status and which vaccine and when given if we are vaccinated. We sign that what we provide is true. I really don’t think this is unreasonable. On the other hand, asking for copies of medical records, etc. is a violation of medical privacy and should be resisted on those grounds. Perhaps you can offer to sign a statement attesting to your status and leave it at that. It really doesn’t violate HIPAA rules because those cover release of the information without your consent and your employer is asking for that consent.

    If you’re not allowed to lie on the attestation under penalty of firing, it’s the same thing as requiring medical documentation.

    • #29
  30. kedavis Member
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Caryn (View Comment):

    Interesting. I work for a large health care system and just minutes ago received a message from our CEO saying that the federal mandate for healthcare workers has been halted by court injunction. As a result, “This means that, come Jan. 4, unless there is further legal action, caregivers may continue to provide patient care services regardless of their COVID-19 vaccination status,” he stated.

    They are asking us to attest to our status so that they can “…ensure we have appropriate safety protocols in place for our caregivers during this challenging time.” I assume this includes having appropriate personal protective equipment available should we return to a time when masks are no longer required even for those who are vaccinated. The attestation form asks our status and which vaccine and when given if we are vaccinated. We sign that what we provide is true. I really don’t think this is unreasonable. On the other hand, asking for copies of medical records, etc. is a violation of medical privacy and should be resisted on those grounds. Perhaps you can offer to sign a statement attesting to your status and leave it at that. It really doesn’t violate HIPAA rules because those cover release of the information without your consent and your employer is asking for that consent.

    If you’re not allowed to lie on the attestation under penalty of firing, it’s the same thing as requiring medical documentation.

    But technically it’s still with your consent.  And if you don’t consent, you lose your job.  But they still have your consent, if you give it to them. 

    • #30