Memories … Memories

 

I have been reading a story in The Wall Street Journal about the trial of Ghislaine Maxwell, Jeffrey Epstein’s procurer (of young girls to feed his sexual appetite), and a mention of what her defense team will do gave me pause. Many of the witnesses will be some of those young girls (grown up now), who will tell their stories of wild parties and sexual abuse at the many homes of the late (and not lamented) Epstein. They will probably mention that Maxwell was the one who contacted them at first and persuaded them to attend those parties.

Her defense team will bring to the stand experts on “false memories” in their attempt to convince the jury that the women falsely remember their experiences with Epstein and Maxwell, and that they weren’t really abused at all. The experts will emphasize that, for the experiences that took place so long ago, the women simply can’t remember correctly what went on, even if they are not bald-faced lying.

Now, this brought to mind another occasion, one where a woman was certain that a person had sexually abused her over 35 years ago, and, funny thing, she was believed and supported by crowds of supporters. Christine Blasey Ford swore that Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh had abused her at a party they both attended while they were in high school.

Once again, the left tries to have it both ways. Women both can, and cannot, accurately report on experiences they had a long time ago. I am hoping that Maxwell’s defense team is unsuccessful at painting the accusers as confused about what really happened to them at Epstein’s parties. And I wonder if anyone will bring up the case of Ford vs. Kavanaugh.

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  1. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    But that’s whataboutism. Oh, wait. If you claim Democrats are whataboutists, that’s whataboutism.

    • #1
  2. Kevin Schulte Member
    Kevin Schulte
    @KevinSchulte

    Far more important, though I doubt it will be raised in court. 

    Who were the powerful men and women that abused these girls ?

    Muddy and divert to protect the rich and powerful will be the game. 

    • #2
  3. Addiction Is A Choice Member
    Addiction Is A Choice
    @AddictionIsAChoice

    This picture just bugs the hell out of me! He probably wore those 1970s-style NBA short-shorts with no underwear! One ball hanging out on the seat as he made his moves. These people are awful!

    • #3
  4. Hang On Member
    Hang On
    @HangOn

    I wonder if the defense will bring drugs and alcohol consumption by the girls. 

    • #4
  5. kedavis Member
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Hang On (View Comment):

    I wonder if the defense will bring drugs and alcohol consumption by the girls.

    Seems like that would make the men look worse, not better.

    • #5
  6. Hang On Member
    Hang On
    @HangOn

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):

    I wonder if the defense will bring drugs and alcohol consumption by the girls.

    Seems like that would make the men look worse, not better.

    Depends on where the drugs and alcohol were consumed. 

    • #6
  7. Manny Member
    Manny
    @Manny

    RushBabe49: I have been reading a story in the Wall Street Journal about the trial of Ghislaine Maxwell, Jeffrey Epstein’s procurer (of young girls to feed his sexual appetite),

    You mean the madam of ill repute, or perhaps more accurate, female pimp.  I hope the book is thrown at her and gets the max.  Pun intended.  ;)

    • #7
  8. kedavis Member
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Hang On (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):

    I wonder if the defense will bring drugs and alcohol consumption by the girls.

    Seems like that would make the men look worse, not better.

    Depends on where the drugs and alcohol were consumed.

    Even if the underage girls weren’t given drugs and alcohol until they were outside of the US, it still doesn’t help their case.

    • #8
  9. Doctor Robert Member
    Doctor Robert
    @DoctorRobert

    A note of caution.  There is such a thing as a false memory. In 1987 or 1988 I was asked to give a deposition in a nasty malpractice case.  In the spring of 1984, during my Ob/Gyn residency, a pregnant woman who lived far away, at term with twin male fetuses, found herself stranded in our community and came to our hospital at the onset of labor.  The chief resident packed her off to bed for the night, during which the unborn lads expired, likely from supine hypotension (the weight of the pregnant uterus reduces blood flow to the pelvis and the fetuses suffocate).  Can you imagine the horror, twin fetuses at term, dead in her womb because we refused to deliver her.

    I was the junior resident and as third in command had objected to the management.  When the case was filed, the hospital’s attorney spoke to me informally.  I described to him the conversation I had with the chief, this lady is at term, there’s no reason for delay, let’s deliver her, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, etc.   I remembered the chief’s condescending attitude, where she stood, how she looked at me while we spoke, some of the exact words she spoke, my frustration at being overruled.  Indeed, I remember some of these things today.

    The hospital’s attorney talked to me about this and then gently pointed out that the chief resident in question had not been on call that night. Indeed, she had presented proof of having been in another state at the time of our “conversation” (four states were within a half hour drive).   How I had concocted such a damning faux memory is beyond me, but  it was truly false.  So I did not give a deposition in the case, at least not that I can remember now…

    Having written all of this, I have no doubt that Ghislaine is guilty as hell.  I’m just sorry she’s not squealing like a stuck pig about some of the other high rollers for whom the late un-lamented Mr Epstein procured underage sex trafficking victims.

    • #9
  10. kedavis Member
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Doctor Robert (View Comment):
    A note of caution.  There is such a thing as a false memory.

    Peter Robinson covered this in the past too.

    https://www.adrive.com/public/HbrUaT/Ricochet%20Podcast%2009-29-18%20clip%20A%20Supreme%20Moment%20%20418.mp3

    • #10
  11. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Doctor Robert (View Comment):

    A note of caution. There is such a thing as a false memory. In 1987 or 1988 I was asked to give a deposition in a nasty malpractice case. In the spring of 1984, during my Ob/Gyn residency, a pregnant woman who lived far away, at term with twin male fetuses, found herself stranded in our community and came to our hospital at the onset of labor. The chief resident packed her off to bed for the night, during which the unborn lads expired, likely from supine hypotension (the weight of the pregnant uterus reduces blood flow to the pelvis and the fetuses suffocate). Can you imagine the horror, twin fetuses at term, dead in her womb because we refused to deliver her.

    I was the junior resident and as third in command had objected to the management. When the case was filed, the hospital’s attorney spoke to me informally. I described to him the conversation I had with the chief, this lady is at term, there’s no reason for delay, let’s deliver her, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, etc. I remembered the chief’s condescending attitude, where she stood, how she looked at me while we spoke, some of the exact words she spoke, my frustration at being overruled. Indeed, I remember some of these things today.

    The hospital’s attorney talked to me about this and then gently pointed out that the chief resident in question had not been on call that night. Indeed, she had presented proof of having been in another state at the time of our “conversation” (four states were within a half hour drive). How I had concocted such a damning faux memory is beyond me, but it was truly false. So I did not give a deposition in the case, at least not that I can remember now…

    Having written all of this, I have no doubt that Ghislaine is guilty as hell. I’m just sorry she’s not squealing like a stuck pig about some of the other high rollers for whom the late un-lamented Mr Epstein procured underage sex trafficking victims.

    So when you fall off a precipice, and your life flashes before your eyes, is it real?  And when a brain surgeon stimulates a memory with a probe, is it real?

    • #11
  12. JustmeinAZ Member
    JustmeinAZ
    @JustmeinAZ

    Doctor Robert (View Comment):
    Having written all of this, I have no doubt that Ghislaine is guilty as hell.  I’m just sorry she’s not squealing like a stuck pig about some of the other high rollers for whom the late un-lamented Mr Epstein procured underage sex trafficking victims.

    Maybe because she doesn’t want to end up like the late un-lamented Mr Epstein?

    • #12
  13. Vince Guerra Member
    Vince Guerra
    @VinceGuerra

    Kevin Schulte (View Comment):

    Far more important, though I doubt it will be raised in court.

    Who were the powerful men and women that abused these girls ?

    Muddy and divert to protect the rich and powerful will be the game.

    The victims testimony isn’t as interesting as would be the testimony of the peripheral actors like the pilots and private security officers for people who’ve tried to avoid their connections. People with names like Gates, Clinton, and Prince Andrew.

    One can only pray that the prosecutors have managed to turn a few of them.

    • #13
  14. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    Doctor Robert (View Comment):
    I’m just sorry she’s not squealing like a stuck pig about some of the other high rollers for whom the late un-lamented Mr Epstein procured underage sex trafficking victims.

    “You shut up, you won’t get the necktie. You talk, you get the Epstein treatment.”

    • #14
  15. Hang On Member
    Hang On
    @HangOn

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):

    I wonder if the defense will bring drugs and alcohol consumption by the girls.

    Seems like that would make the men look worse, not better.

    Depends on where the drugs and alcohol were consumed.

    Even if the underage girls weren’t given drugs and alcohol until they were outside of the US, it still doesn’t help their case.

    My point is that the girls may  already have had drug/alcohol problems before coming into Epstein’s orbit with the associated problems of memory. The lure of easy access to drugs and alcohol is possibly what led them in. Epstein lived in a highly compartmentalized world or seems to have. These girls have made accusations against some people who were associated with Epstein but were probably not in the sex with underage girls compartment. I would give very low value to the testimony of the girls. I would want much stronger evidence than their testimony.  Witnesses get things wrong.

    • #15
  16. She Reagan
    She
    @She

    Doctor Robert (View Comment):
    A note of caution.  There is such a thing as a false memory.

    I never really believed this until I read an essay by neurologist Oliver Sacks, describing false memories of his childhood in WWII London.  The mind’s a wondrous, and sometimes a false mistress. 

    Doctor Robert (View Comment):
    I have no doubt that Ghislaine is guilty as hell.

    Me neither.  If the Left had any decency or ethics at all, they’d view this as a case which demonstrates actual, not invented, “privilege”–that of the rich, well-connected, and powerful–and tackle it as such.  Unfortunately, because it’s a case which demonstrates that sort of privilege, they’ll throw the book at the Maxwell woman (an deservedly unsympathetic character, for sure) while failing to investigate the actions of their own heroes who’ve been complicit in this nasty spectacle for decades.  We can argue and speculate from now till Christmas (which isn’t actually that far away) about the state of mind of these underage, and just-0f-age girls, whether they were drunk, drugged, sentient, responsible, star-struck and starry-eyed, deluded, greedy, or if they actually knew what they were doing or not.  But the “adult” men whose names repeatedly appear in flight manifests, news stories and photographs of Epstein and Maxwell’s trips and “parties?”  They don’t get a pass from me.  And I also hope that at some point she sings like a canary. 

    • #16
  17. Tex929rr Coolidge
    Tex929rr
    @Tex929rr

    Addiction Is A Choice (View Comment):

    This picture just bugs the hell out of me! He probably wore those 1970s-style NBA short-shorts with no underwear! One ball hanging out on the seat as he made his moves. These people are awful!

    That’s disturbingly detailed.

    • #17
  18. Addiction Is A Choice Member
    Addiction Is A Choice
    @AddictionIsAChoice

    Tex929rr (View Comment):
    That’s disturbingly detailed.

    By, design, Tex! Everything about this story is disturbing.

    • #18
  19. Hang On Member
    Hang On
    @HangOn

    She (View Comment):

    Doctor Robert (View Comment):
    A note of caution. There is such a thing as a false memory.

    I never really believed this until I read an essay by neurologist Oliver Sacks, describing false memories of his childhood in WWII London. The mind’s a wondrous, and sometimes a false mistress.

    Doctor Robert (View Comment):
    I have no doubt that Ghislaine is guilty as hell.

    Me neither. If the Left had any decency or ethics at all, they’d view this as a case which demonstrates actual, not invented, “privilege”–that of the rich, well-connected, and powerful–and tackle it as such. Unfortunately, because it’s a case which demonstrates that sort of privilege, they’ll throw the book at the Maxwell woman (an deservedly unsympathetic character, for sure) while failing to investigate the actions of their own heroes who’ve been complicit in this nasty spectacle for decades. We can argue and speculate from now till Christmas (which isn’t actually that far away) about the state of mind of these underage, and just-0f-age girls, whether they were drunk, drugged, sentient, responsible, star-struck and starry-eyed, deluded, greedy, or if they actually knew what they were doing or not. But the “adult” men whose names repeatedly appear in flight manifests, news stories and photographs of Epstein and Maxwell’s trips and “parties?” They don’t get a pass from me. And I also hope that at some point she sings like a canary.

    Do you find any of the characters (including the accusers) sympathetic? I don’t. It should never have happened, but from watching interviews,  I get the feeling of them seeing cash and that’s what interests them.

    • #19
  20. Jim George Member
    Jim George
    @JimGeorge

    @rushbabe49, for what it’s worth, one of the team of three lead prosecutors for the US Attorney’s office will be James Comey’s daughter. I would like to believe that is not at all relevant, but after the last decade, that requires a level of naivete which has been pretty well beaten out of most of us. Why does the old term “a barrel of snakes” come to mind? Jim.

     

    • #20
  21. Marjorie Reynolds Coolidge
    Marjorie Reynolds
    @MarjorieReynolds

    Tex929rr (View Comment):

    Addiction Is A Choice (View Comment):

    This picture just bugs the hell out of me! He probably wore those 1970s-style NBA short-shorts with no underwear! One ball hanging out on the seat as he made his moves. These people are awful!

    That’s disturbingly detailed.

    I think we’re all getting a good mental image there ughghh 

    • #21
  22. drlorentz Member
    drlorentz
    @drlorentz

     

    • #22
  23. Ansonia Member
    Ansonia
    @Ansonia

    She (View Comment):

    Doctor Robert (View Comment):
    A note of caution. There is such a thing as a false memory.

    I never really believed this until I read an essay by neurologist Oliver Sacks, describing false memories of his childhood in WWII London. The mind’s a wondrous, and sometimes a false mistress.

    Doctor Robert (View Comment):
    I have no doubt that Ghislaine is guilty as hell.

    Me neither. If the Left had any decency or ethics at all, they’d view this as a case which demonstrates actual, not invented, “privilege”–that of the rich, well-connected, and powerful–and tackle it as such. Unfortunately, because it’s a case which demonstrates that sort of privilege, they’ll throw the book at the Maxwell woman (an deservedly unsympathetic character, for sure) while failing to investigate the actions of their own heroes who’ve been complicit in this nasty spectacle for decades. We can argue and speculate from now till Christmas (which isn’t actually that far away) about the state of mind of these underage, and just-0f-age girls, whether they were drunk, drugged, sentient, responsible, star-struck and starry-eyed, deluded, greedy, or if they actually knew what they were doing or not. But the “adult” men whose names repeatedly appear in flight manifests, news stories and photographs of Epstein and Maxwell’s trips and “parties?” They don’t get a pass from me. And I also hope that at some point she sings like a canary.

    That’s exactly how I feel about this.
    Also, when a kid is lonely, aching to believe she isn’t as homely and ungifted as she often thinks she is, someone with the lines and false affection this woman used has the overwhelming advantage of peddling what the kid so desperately wants to believe. It was just evil.

     

    • #23
  24. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Hang On (View Comment):
    Do you find any of the characters (including the accusers) sympathetic?

    Yes, I pity all young people growing up in a culture laid waste by progressivism. They’ve never known sexual morality or virtuous living. They certainly haven’t had it taught or modeled for them by preceding generations.

    • #24
  25. Hang On Member
    Hang On
    @HangOn

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):
    Do you find any of the characters (including the accusers) sympathetic?

    Yes, I pity all young people growing up in a culture laid waste by progressivism. They’ve never known sexual morality or virtuous living. They certainly haven’t had it taught or modeled for them by preceding generations.

    That’s not the same thing.

    • #25
  26. Jim McConnell Member
    Jim McConnell
    @JimMcConnell

    Tex929rr (View Comment):

    Addiction Is A Choice (View Comment):

    This picture just bugs the hell out of me! He probably wore those 1970s-style NBA short-shorts with no underwear! One ball hanging out on the seat as he made his moves. These people are awful!

    That’s disturbingly detailed.

    Also, that is a very disturbing photo, given the circumstances.

    • #26
  27. Tex929rr Coolidge
    Tex929rr
    @Tex929rr

    Jim McConnell (View Comment):
    Also, that is a very disturbing photo, given the circumstances.

    But it was all in a typical days activities back then.  It’s not hard to imagine Bill Clinton in exactly the same place. 

    • #27
  28. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Hang On (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):
    Do you find any of the characters (including the accusers) sympathetic?

    Yes, I pity all young people growing up in a culture laid waste by progressivism. They’ve never known sexual morality or virtuous living. They certainly haven’t had it taught or modeled for them by preceding generations.

    That’s not the same thing.

    I think the accusers have reduced culpability because of the decadent and depraved society they’ve been brought up in. Even if they are after money, I don’t hold them entirely or even mainly responsible for their degraded moral condition. We are dramatically failing our young people, compounded by COVID hysteria among adults. It’s tragic. 

    • #28
  29. kedavis Member
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):
    Do you find any of the characters (including the accusers) sympathetic?

    Yes, I pity all young people growing up in a culture laid waste by progressivism. They’ve never known sexual morality or virtuous living. They certainly haven’t had it taught or modeled for them by preceding generations.

    That’s not the same thing.

    I think the accusers have reduced culpability because of the decadent and depraved society they’ve been brought up in. Even if they are after money, I don’t hold them entirely or even mainly responsible for their degraded moral condition. We are dramatically failing our young people, compounded by COVID hysteria among adults. It’s tragic.

    Of course, COVID wouldn’t have had anything to do with the issues on trial in that case.

    • #29
  30. Vince Guerra Member
    Vince Guerra
    @VinceGuerra

    Looks like the lead prosecutor is James Comey’s daughter, and the judge is a brand new Biden appointee. So much for that. https://www.redvoicemedia.com/2021/11/the-fix-is-in-comeys-daughter-a-lead-prosecutors-and-biden-nominated-judge-presiding-over-ghislaine-maxwell-trial/

    • #30