A Catholic MP Dies in a Church Without the Last Rites in Post-Christian Britain

 

Image

Last Friday, David Amess, a member of Parliament (equivalent of a U.S. congressman) for the U.K. parliamentary seat of Southend West, was brutally murdered when he was attending his local constituency ‘s surgery (meeting with local voters) in a Methodist church. His suspected murderer, a likely Islamist Britain, was arrested at the scene and is right now awaiting charges.

Amess was an MP of many traits: 69 years of age, a well-liked member of Parliament by members of all political views, married, a father of five, a Conservative, and a Roman Catholic.

What’s interesting about Amess was that he wasn’t a Catholic politician in the vein of Nancy Pelosi or Joe Biden but a committed conservative Catholic with views well known against abortion and gay marriage. He was nevertheless well liked even by members who had converse views to this. He also broke with the Conservative Party when he believed it acted against social teaching against the poor and on animals. Amess was no poser though. Unlike many MPs or politicians of all kinds, he sought only to work for his local constituents, not power. He was widely admired by many in Westminster (where Parliament sits), not just by politicians but by many of the advisers, guards, cleaners, cooks, clerks, and parliamentary aides (the little people) who he always treated as an equal. It’s not for nothing that U.K. politicians have been in a state of shock all week.

When I heard the news on Friday and Saturday, I was deeply shocked. Many MPs are well known in Ireland, and British politics is followed here regularly, myself included in this watching. Many of our version of MPs (called here TDs) were shocked. Particularly the fact that this is the second murder of an MP in the U.K. within five years. Many Irish TDs work in a similar way to MPs, and so it shook many here. But as soon as I realised it was a likely Islamist murder, I must say this shock fell away. Europe has, shall we say, gotten used to this.

But my shock returned on Saturday when I realized the above image story occurred. Essentially, in the minutes after Amess was stabbed, the local parish priest, a friend of Amess, was called by concerned friends. He arrived at the Methodist church and asked the police to allow him to enter so he could say last rites for Amess. For those unaware, this is a sacrament that prepares the dying or the sick for the next life with God. It also can be a time to confess sins. The police on the scene radioed their commanders. He was denied.

As such, Amess died within reach of a Catholic priest. He was denied the last sacraments by either someone profoundly ignorant of the Christian and Catholic faith or someone just plain ignorant. Alas, as the priest said prayers, Amess passed onto his eternal reward. God have mercy on his soul.

Many Catholics in the U.K. and Ireland were outraged at this story as it came out on Saturday. Soon many non-Catholics, Protestants, and even nonbelievers joined in. The absolute disgrace of this was said by many. Many Catholics in Britain were particularly outraged and made their notice of it clear online. I was outraged with it here in Ireland; oddly I was far more outraged with this than the murder for some minutes. Murderers are murderers. Cruelty is what they do. Yet here was a U.K. institution adding to it, with blissful ignorance the likely beast.

Britain is a very secular country, even though it is often said to be a Protestant constitutional monarchy. The reality is that it is a country where Christians are a minority, and knowledge of all religions (except Islam) is very low. That is why the police did what they did in Southend. That is also why the fact Amess was murdered in a church has got so little play. Churches are just other buildings to a secular population, nothing special. God help them. This is the end result of practical atheism mixed with the failure of the Christian churches in the U.K. to preach the good news. God isn’t dead, but his traditions and beliefs are being forgotten.

It remains to be seen when a religious revival occurs in Europe or will it occur. But for now, we have to live with this reality: the very idea a man could be denied his religious freedoms in death because someone said so. This is the present in Europe. It’s coming to America too. For now, it’s present so readily in the U.K. Not just shocking, but terribly sad.

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  1. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Caryn (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Doug Watt (View Comment):

    Critics of the Catholic Church have been around for centuries, but if one chooses to be a critic I would suggest you get a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) so you could offer some intelligent comments.

    If Manny is wrong about Catholic theology, then Manny is wrong about Catholic theology.

    But I’m not wrong about what Manny has written. And what Manny wrote, which I’ve quoted twice now, is that people who die without receiving last rites have died in a state of sin, which – as far as I’ve ever heard/read, and not just Catholicism – means damnation.

    That makes it Manny’s problem/mistake/error/whatever, not mine. And that means that Manny needs to do the studying and correcting his beliefs and what he claims Catholic teachings are.

    Doug gave you good advice. Stop being a jerk. Manny’s perfectly right not to waste time with you.

    If pointing out when people aren’t making sense is being a jerk and should stop, then none of you better ever point out the inconsistencies of Democrats/Liberals ever again.  God is watching.

    • #31
  2. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    kedavis (View Comment):

    If you’d like to explain how that doesn’t mean what the words clearly say, have at it.

    I suppose you could claim that someone who hasn’t committed any sins since their most recent confession doesn’t need last rites, but from what I’ve learned and observed over 60+ years, Catholics don’t believe that’s possible.

    Alright, now I see the disconnect.  No, you are not necessarily damned if you die with sins unresolved.  There are mortal sins that separate you from God, and those damn you if they are left on your soul when you die.  There are venial sins, and if you die with those on your soul you require purgation, which is a stage where you are purified, commonly referred to as Purgatory, and once completed gets you saved.  A true and contrite last rite would clear you of all sins, and you would be spared Purgatory.  I’m not going to go into the theology of all that, but it’s all Biblical.  You probably don’t realize it, but it’s there, just like this from the Book of James:

    Is anyone among you suffering? He should pray. Is anyone in good spirits? He should sing praise.  Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint [him] with oil in the name of the Lord, and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven. (James 5:13-15)

    You probably never noticed that, or did you ever read the Book of James?  If you’re really interested in completely understanding the Sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick – which is the official name of Last Rites – you can read here.

    If you want to read the entire theology of Catholicism, I recommend you get the Catechism of the Catholic Church.  I don’t know of any other religion or denomination that puts out something that detailed.

    Frankly, whoever taught you manners didn’t do a great job.

    • #32
  3. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    kedavis (View Comment):

    BDB (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Doug Watt (View Comment):

    Critics of the Catholic Church have been around for centuries, but if one chooses to be a critic I would suggest you get a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) so you could offer some intelligent comments.

    If Manny is wrong about Catholic theology, then Manny is wrong about Catholic theology.

    But I’m not wrong about what Manny has written. And what Manny wrote, which I’ve quoted twice now, is that people who die without receiving last rites have died in a state of sin, which – as far as I’ve ever heard/read, and not just Catholicism – means damnation.

    That makes it Manny’s problem/mistake/error/whatever, not mine. And that means that Manny needs to do the studying and correcting his beliefs and what he claims Catholic teachings are.

    Far be it from me to instruct the faithful in their faith.

    Well if they tell me what their faith is, and I show them how it’s self-contradictory or something, that’s not MY problem. It’s THEIRS. They either don’t understand their faith very well, or they didn’t explain it well, or maybe their faith is just not very sensible.

    I’ll stop replying here.  I will be happy to continue if you would like to put up a thread on the topic.  

    • #33
  4. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Manny (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    That really makes me feel sorry for Catholics. Why should a physical act be so important to their spiritual life? That really seems to devalue the spiritual side. Like it’s more about procedure, bureaucracy, than about faith etc. But considering there’s a Pope and such, I guess that’s not really surprising.

    First off, I’m going to by pass how insulting that sounds.

    Second, you couldn’t be more wrong. In fact it’s breath taking how wrong you are. Last rites and all the sacraments are a merging together of the physical and metaphysical. It is your modern mentality that has created a wall between the spiritual and physical. The spiritual is a continuum of the material, at least for Catholics, Orthodox, Coptics, Byzantine, and other Apostolic Churches. Each sacrament, Baptism, Reconciliation, Matrimony, Holy Orders, Last Rite effects the soul. The physical entity (water in the case of baptism, bread and wine in the case of the Eucharist) becomes consecrated with the divine, and so alters the soul. It is a spiritual grace that you have no conception in your mentality. Why do you have baptism in water? It’s the same concept. It is Protestants who are the outliers when it comes to understanding the spiritual.

    The Last Rite is a cleansing of sin before one dies. The state of the soul at death is fixed and so it no longer has a chance to accept faith and be contrite, and so the Last Rite is a cleansing of sins from last confession and a final acceptance of faith before death, thereby if done with sincerity assures salvation.

    And by the way, what don’t you understand about the word “assures“?  Assures means that it’s definite thing, but it does not mean that it is impossible without.  

    • #34
  5. The Other Diane Coolidge
    The Other Diane
    @TheOtherDiane
    • #35
  6. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Paddy S: The police on the scene radioed their commanders. He was denied.

    It will be even worse if there is no effort to find out who issued the denial, and what influenced the denial. 

    • #36
  7. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    All this talk of last rites reminded me of the great scene in Brideshead Revisited, the BBC version, which is one of the great TV series ever filmed.  It’s better than the movie version, but I still recommend the great novel by Evelyn Waugh.  Read the novel first if you haven’t – it’s one of the great English novels of the 20th century – and then watch the BBC series.

    But here is that scene, which could be viewed as the climax of the novel, where Lord Marchmain, the patriarch of the family and lapsed Catholic, on his death bed and what appears to be a coma, accepts contrition.  Lord Marchmain is played by the great Laurence Olivier and the protagonist, Charles Ryder, is played by Jeremy Irons.  Ryder is an atheist and maybe even a heathen for most of the story until his experience with the Marchmain family, and this scene pushes him into belief.

    I think that gives you an understanding of what happens with the Last Rite, although I don’t recall there being candles at my father’s last anointing.  Otherwise it’s pretty much accurate.

    Edit: For some reason, the way I embedded the video starts well into the clip.  Just slide it back to the beginning to see the entire thing

    • #37
  8. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Manny (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    If you’d like to explain how that doesn’t mean what the words clearly say, have at it.

    I suppose you could claim that someone who hasn’t committed any sins since their most recent confession doesn’t need last rites, but from what I’ve learned and observed over 60+ years, Catholics don’t believe that’s possible.

    Alright, now I see the disconnect. No, you are not necessarily damned if you die with sins unresolved. There are mortal sins that separate you from God, and those damn you if they are left on your soul when you die. There are venial sins, and if you die with those on your soul you require purgation, which is a stage where you are purified, commonly referred to as Purgatory, and once completed gets you saved. A true and contrite last rite would clear you of all sins, and you would be spared Purgatory. I’m not going to go into the theology of all that, but it’s all Biblical. You probably don’t realize it, but it’s there, just like this from the Book of James:

    Is anyone among you suffering? He should pray. Is anyone in good spirits? He should sing praise. Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint [him] with oil in the name of the Lord, and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven. (James 5:13-15)

    You probably never noticed that, or did you ever read the Book of James? If you’re really interested in completely understanding the Sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick – which is the official name of Last Rites – you can read here.

    If you want to read the entire theology of Catholicism, I recommend you get the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I don’t know of any other religion or denomination that puts out something that detailed.

    Frankly, whoever taught you manners didn’t do a great job.

    Okay, see, that explains it.  But you did leave that out before.  So I didn’t get anything wrong.  I was given incomplete information.

    • #38
  9. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    If you’d like to explain how that doesn’t mean what the words clearly say, have at it.

    I suppose you could claim that someone who hasn’t committed any sins since their most recent confession doesn’t need last rites, but from what I’ve learned and observed over 60+ years, Catholics don’t believe that’s possible.

    Alright, now I see the disconnect. No, you are not necessarily damned if you die with sins unresolved. There are mortal sins that separate you from God, and those damn you if they are left on your soul when you die. There are venial sins, and if you die with those on your soul you require purgation, which is a stage where you are purified, commonly referred to as Purgatory, and once completed gets you saved. A true and contrite last rite would clear you of all sins, and you would be spared Purgatory. I’m not going to go into the theology of all that, but it’s all Biblical. You probably don’t realize it, but it’s there, just like this from the Book of James:

    Is anyone among you suffering? He should pray. Is anyone in good spirits? He should sing praise. Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint [him] with oil in the name of the Lord, and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven. (James 5:13-15)

    You probably never noticed that, or did you ever read the Book of James? If you’re really interested in completely understanding the Sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick – which is the official name of Last Rites – you can read here.

    If you want to read the entire theology of Catholicism, I recommend you get the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I don’t know of any other religion or denomination that puts out something that detailed.

    Frankly, whoever taught you manners didn’t do a great job.

    Okay, see, that explains it. But you did leave that out before. So I didn’t get anything wrong. I was given incomplete information.

    But you could have asked nicely. Peace. :-)

    • #39
  10. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Manny (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    If you’d like to explain how that doesn’t mean what the words clearly say, have at it.

    I suppose you could claim that someone who hasn’t committed any sins since their most recent confession doesn’t need last rites, but from what I’ve learned and observed over 60+ years, Catholics don’t believe that’s possible.

    Alright, now I see the disconnect. No, you are not necessarily damned if you die with sins unresolved. There are mortal sins that separate you from God, and those damn you if they are left on your soul when you die. There are venial sins, and if you die with those on your soul you require purgation, which is a stage where you are purified, commonly referred to as Purgatory, and once completed gets you saved. A true and contrite last rite would clear you of all sins, and you would be spared Purgatory. I’m not going to go into the theology of all that, but it’s all Biblical. You probably don’t realize it, but it’s there, just like this from the Book of James:

    Is anyone among you suffering? He should pray. Is anyone in good spirits? He should sing praise. Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint [him] with oil in the name of the Lord, and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven. (James 5:13-15)

    You probably never noticed that, or did you ever read the Book of James? If you’re really interested in completely understanding the Sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick – which is the official name of Last Rites – you can read here.

    If you want to read the entire theology of Catholicism, I recommend you get the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I don’t know of any other religion or denomination that puts out something that detailed.

    Frankly, whoever taught you manners didn’t do a great job.

    Okay, see, that explains it. But you did leave that out before. So I didn’t get anything wrong. I was given incomplete information.

    But you could have asked nicely. Peace. :-)

    I was really just asking questions.  If you’d mentioned purgatory etc back at comment 19, that would have been the end of it.

    • #40
  11. Marjorie Reynolds Coolidge
    Marjorie Reynolds
    @MarjorieReynolds

    https://clarendonstreet.com/live/ 

    if anyone wants to watch at 12.45 GMT, a mass for him which was organised by some members of the Irish parliament is being live-streamed.

    • #41
  12. dukenaltum Inactive
    dukenaltum
    @dukenaltum

    On another tact.  This was a martyrdom of Catholic based on the Moslem sect’s perennial theology of hatred of the Catholic faith so the need for Extreme Unction might not be too great for the sake of this fine man’s soul (Remember him in your prayers today).   

    The reaction of the Police was vile almost primitive shamanism.  The scientism and superstition about the integrity of crime scene when the Islamist was already captured, multiple witnesses at the scene, there may be cellphone video of the event, a police presence and the high probability that the Moslem proclaimed his crime to all who would listen is unforgivable and wicked. 

    King of Majesty tremendous,
    Who dost free salvation send us,
    Fount of pity, then befriend us!

    Think, kind Jesu! – my salvation
    Caused Thy wondrous Incarnation;
    Leave me not to reprobation.

    Faint and weary, Thou hast sought me,
    On the Cross of suffering bought me.
    Shall such grace be vainly brought me?

    Righteous Judge, for sin’s pollution
    Grant Thy gift of absolution,
    Ere the day of retribution.

     

     

    • #42
  13. Lois Lane Coolidge
    Lois Lane
    @LoisLane

    I just read through all of these comments, and I think it’s an interesting exchange.

    I am an American who was a Protestant who lived in England and who converted to Catholicism despite members of my own family viewing this faith as akin to being in a “cult,” so I guess I “get” a bunch of different layers in both this story and the comments.  

    I mean…. I actually don’t think anyone was trying to be rude, though it’s also pretty easy to read text that way?

    What is easy to see per the actual event?

    The policeman most certainly did not understand the significance of the priest because religion is not considered important *at all* in the UK.  (It’s fine if one wants to have a religion, as long as it doesn’t get in the way of anything else.). That is essentially the inherent message of denying the priest access to the MP.  

    However, let’s assume that Catholicism is a bunch of argle bargle, as many a Briton would say. (Even the vanilla yogurt faiths are argle bargle, you see, and prayers are akin to people rubbing a rabbit’s foot per how important they are thought to be.)

    What did the MP *himself* believe?  

    In a Western society that insists we must call people a particular pronoun based on allowing them to be their “essential selves,” whatever the reality, it seems strange that essential beliefs in God are just dismissed out of hand as a form of lunacy.  (That’s how all Christian religion is framed there now, I think: a form of lunacy.)  

    Keeping in mind I am a Catholic and believe deeply the church offers “the Truth,” I can use the reasoning that exists for secular thinkers, which is intent on giving a person’s feelings about “essential self” some sort of primacy, and say a sin was committed here; the denial of access to what the MP himself would have wanted was a knife wound to the soul for a man who was already dying… another cruelty inflicted on him by a state that did not protect him.  

    Does that make sense?

    I think people in the Uk would be more persuaded by this line of thinking than theology.

    Onto actual theology….

    Is God’s mercy bigger that a sacrament?  

    Yes.  Of course.  God is bigger than *everything.* But the sacraments exist for good reasons, and whatever one thinks of rites, the denial of one is a clear violation of a believer’s natural rights.  

    Even Henry VIII who started the Protestant Reformation in England would have insisted on last rites while dying.  

    • #43
  14. dukenaltum Inactive
    dukenaltum
    @dukenaltum

    Lois Lane (View Comment):

    I just read through all of these comments, and I think it’s an interesting exchange.

    I am an American who was a Protestant who lived in England and who converted to Catholicism despite members of my own family viewing this faith as akin to being in a “cult,” so I guess I “get” a bunch of different layers in both this story and the comments.

    I mean…. I actually don’t think anyone was trying to be rude, though it’s also pretty easy to read text that way?

    What is easy to see per the actual event?

    The policeman most certainly did not understand the significance of the priest because religion is not considered important *at all* in the UK. (It’s fine if one wants to have a religion, as long as it doesn’t get in the way of anything else.). That is essentially the inherent message of denying the priest access to the MP.

    However, let’s assume that Catholicism is a bunch of argle bargle, as many a Briton would say. (Even the vanilla yogurt faiths are argle bargle, you see, and prayers are akin to people rubbing a rabbit’s foot per how important they are thought to be.)

    What did the MP *himself* believe?

    In a Western society that insists we must call people a particular pronoun based on allowing them to be their “essential selves,” whatever the reality, it seems strange that essential beliefs in God are just dismissed out of hand as a form of lunacy. (That’s how all Christian religion is framed there now, I think: a form of lunacy.)

    Keeping in mind I am a Catholic and believe deeply the church offers “the Truth,” I can use the reasoning that exists for secular thinkers, which is intent on giving a person’s feelings about “essential self” some sort of primacy, and say a sin was committed here; the denial of access to what the MP himself would have wanted was a knife wound to the soul for a man who was already dying… another cruelty inflicted on him by a state that did not protect him.

    Does that make sense?

    I think people in the Uk would be more persuaded by this line of thinking than theology.

    Onto actual theology….

    Is God’s mercy bigger that a sacrament?

    Yes. Of course. God is bigger than *everything.* But the sacraments exist for good reasons, and whatever one thinks of rites, the denial of one is a clear violation of a believer’s natural rights.

    Even Henry VIII who started the Protestant Reformation in England would have insisted on last rites while dying.

    I suspect the situation might have been different if a Moslem MP was stabbed by a Catholic and an Iman presented himself for praying a blessing, but your points are very well made. Cheers.  

    • #44
  15. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    What’s interesting is that the Anglican Church of England has the notion of last rites.  This should not have been unfamiliar to to the police.  This denial to the MP may not have been anti Catholic but purely anti religion.  Or has Christianity totally been forgotten/lost in England?

    Actually it’s not just the Anglican Church, but quite a few other Protestant denominations as well perform some version of the rite.  Wikipedia entry on Anointing of the Sick summarizes who does.  Quite interesting.  I never hear it mentioned among Protestants though.  

    • #45
  16. Suspira Member
    Suspira
    @Suspira

    Lois Lane (View Comment):
    Even Henry VIII who started the Protestant Reformation in England would have insisted on last rites while dying.  

    “Would have”? Not sure if you’re saying he did or didn’t. I have read that Henry may have had last rites. Is there more definite information available?

    • #46
  17. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Manny (View Comment):

    All this talk of last rites reminded me of the great scene in Brideshead Revisited, the BBC version, which is one of the great TV series ever filmed. It’s better than the movie version, but I still recommend the great novel by Evelyn Waugh. Read the novel first if you haven’t – it’s one of the great English novels of the 20th century – and then watch the BBC series.

    But here is that scene, which could be viewed as the climax of the novel, where Lord Marchmain, the patriarch of the family and lapsed Catholic, on his death bed and what appears to be a coma, accepts contrition. Lord Marchmain is played by the great Laurence Olivier and the protagonist, Charles Ryder, is played by Jeremy Irons. Ryder is an atheist and maybe even a heathen for most of the story until his experience with the Marchmain family, and this scene pushes him into belief.

    I think that gives you an understanding of what happens with the Last Rite, although I don’t recall there being candles at my father’s last anointing. Otherwise it’s pretty much accurate.

    For some reason, the way I embedded the video starts well into the clip.  Just slide it back to the beginning to see the entire thing.

    • #47
  18. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Suspira (View Comment):

    Lois Lane (View Comment):
    Even Henry VIII who started the Protestant Reformation in England would have insisted on last rites while dying.

    “Would have”? Not sure if you’re saying he did or didn’t. I have read that Henry may have had last rites. Is there more definite information available?

     Just see my comment a few above this.  Anglicans have last rites.  Now Anglicanism has gone through various transitions but I would imagine Henry VIII did not stamp it out.  From what I understand he didn’t have theological issues with Catholicism.  He just wanted special privileges.  And the Church’s wealth.

    • #48
  19. Suspira Member
    Suspira
    @Suspira

    Manny (View Comment):

    Suspira (View Comment):

    Lois Lane (View Comment):
    Even Henry VIII who started the Protestant Reformation in England would have insisted on last rites while dying.

    “Would have”? Not sure if you’re saying he did or didn’t. I have read that Henry may have had last rites. Is there more definite information available?

    Just see my comment a few above this. Anglicans have last rites. Now Anglicanism has gone through various transitions but I would imagine Henry VIII did not stamp it out. From what I understand he didn’t have theological issues with Catholicism. He just wanted special privileges. And the Church’s wealth.

    Hmm. Perhaps Anglo-Catholics have last rites, but otherwise that’s news to this Episcopalian. 

    • #49
  20. Brian Clendinen Inactive
    Brian Clendinen
    @BrianClendinen

    Um the British police deserve a lot of criticism, this is not one of them. I am a Christian and admire many Cathoclis even though I think some of the Church’s teachings are heretical. Last rites are not one of them.

    However, if I was a police officer dealing with the homicide of an MP I would not have allowed them on the scene either. To me saving his life and keeping the crime scene intact and reducing the chaos is way more important. Now if he was in an ambulance and they refused the priest to come along and give last rites. That would be completely different, and the criticism is valid.

    Chaos and the circumstances surrounding the chaos play a ton into this. Now I might change my mind but we don’t have all the facts of everything going on at the time and exactly what the status of Amemes was when the priest made his request.

    To me this is deflecting the blame. You should be upset with Islam, the conservative anti gun laws, and the policy where police will waste time on hate crime speech but can’t bother to have one office there to insure peace when an MP is in public.

    Those are who are really to blame. Not the officer in the moment who was trying to do what he saw his job was.  Assume it was in good faith until further evidence is presented.

     

    • #50
  21. Caryn Thatcher
    Caryn
    @Caryn

    Manny (View Comment):

    All this talk of last rites reminded me of the great scene in Brideshead Revisited, the BBC version, which is one of the great TV series ever filmed. It’s better than the movie version, but I still recommend the great novel by Evelyn Waugh. Read the novel first if you haven’t – it’s one of the great English novels of the 20th century – and then watch the BBC series.

    But here is that scene, which could be viewed as the climax of the novel, where Lord Marchmain, the patriarch of the family and lapsed Catholic, on his death bed and what appears to be a coma, accepts contrition. Lord Marchmain is played by the great Laurence Olivier and the protagonist, Charles Ryder, is played by Jeremy Irons. Ryder is an atheist and maybe even a heathen for most of the story until his experience with the Marchmain family, and this scene pushes him into belief.

    I think that gives you an understanding of what happens with the Last Rite, although I don’t recall there being candles at my father’s last anointing. Otherwise it’s pretty much accurate.

    Edit: For some reason, the way I embedded the video starts well into the clip. Just slide it back to the beginning to see the entire thing

    Excellent book; excellent TV series.  I saw it first run (1981) and not since.  I’d forgotten Olivier was in it.  I’d love to watch it again.  

    • #51
  22. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Caryn (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Excellent book; excellent TV series. I saw it first run (1981) and not since. I’d forgotten Olivier was in it. I’d love to watch it again.

    Caryn (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    All this talk of last rites reminded me of the great scene in Brideshead Revisited, the BBC version, which is one of the great TV series ever filmed. It’s better than the movie version, but I still recommend the great novel by Evelyn Waugh. Read the novel first if you haven’t – it’s one of the great English novels of the 20th century – and then watch the BBC series.

    But here is that scene, which could be viewed as the climax of the novel, where Lord Marchmain, the patriarch of the family and lapsed Catholic, on his death bed and what appears to be a coma, accepts contrition. Lord Marchmain is played by the great Laurence Olivier and the protagonist, Charles Ryder, is played by Jeremy Irons. Ryder is an atheist and maybe even a heathen for most of the story until his experience with the Marchmain family, and this scene pushes him into belief.

    I think that gives you an understanding of what happens with the Last Rite, although I don’t recall there being candles at my father’s last anointing. Otherwise it’s pretty much accurate.

    Edit: For some reason, the way I embedded the video starts well into the clip. Just slide it back to the beginning to see the entire thing

    Excellent book; excellent TV series. I saw it first run (1981) and not since. I’d forgotten Olivier was in it. I’d love to watch it again.

    I recently (about six months ago) saw it on YouTube.  Or was it Amazon Prime?  I can’t remember now.  There was a link for each episode and I think there are about 12 episodes.

    Edit: I just checked.  YouTube has them.

    • #52
  23. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Suspira (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Suspira (View Comment):

    Lois Lane (View Comment):
    Even Henry VIII who started the Protestant Reformation in England would have insisted on last rites while dying.

    “Would have”? Not sure if you’re saying he did or didn’t. I have read that Henry may have had last rites. Is there more definite information available?

    Just see my comment a few above this. Anglicans have last rites. Now Anglicanism has gone through various transitions but I would imagine Henry VIII did not stamp it out. From what I understand he didn’t have theological issues with Catholicism. He just wanted special privileges. And the Church’s wealth.

    Hmm. Perhaps Anglo-Catholics have last rites, but otherwise that’s news to this Episcopalian.

    This is what the Wikipedia entry I linked above says for Anglican:

    The 1552 and later editions of the Book of Common Prayer omitted the form of anointing given in the original (1549) version in its Order for the Visitation of the Sick, but most twentieth-century Anglican prayer books do have anointing of the sick.[3] The Book of Common Prayer (1662) and the proposed revision of 1928 include the “visitation of the sick” and “communion of the sick” (which consist of various prayers, exhortations and psalms).

    Some Anglicans accept that anointing of the sick has a sacramental character and is therefore a channel of God’s grace, seeing it as an “outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace” which is the definition of a sacrament. The Catechism of the Episcopal Church of the United States of America includes Unction of the Sick as among the “other sacramental rites” and it states that unction can be done with oil or simply with laying on of hands.[42] The rite of anointing is included in the Episcopal Church’s “Ministration to the Sick” [43]

    Article 25 of the Thirty-Nine Articles, which are one of the historical formularies of the Church of England (and as such, the Anglican Communion), speaking of the sacraments, says: “Those five commonly called Sacraments, that is to say, Confirmation, Penance, Orders, Matrimony, and extreme Unction, are not to be counted for Sacraments of the Gospel, being such as have grown partly of the corrupt following of the Apostles, partly are states of life allowed in the Scriptures; but yet have not like nature of Sacraments with Baptism, and the Lord’s Supper, for that they have not any visible sign or ceremony ordained of God.”[44]

    • #53
  24. Lois Lane Coolidge
    Lois Lane
    @LoisLane

    Suspira (View Comment):

    Lois Lane (View Comment):
    Even Henry VIII who started the Protestant Reformation in England would have insisted on last rites while dying.

    “Would have”? Not sure if you’re saying he did or didn’t. I have read that Henry may have had last rites. Is there more definite information available?

    Henry remained a Catholic in practice, even though he broke from Rome.  As Manny says, he simply wanted more control and the money that came with church lands.  He was once named “Defender of the Faith,” after all.  Then he was very good with rationalizing his actions, i.e. killing thousands upon thousands of people per his own desired ends.

    That said, I found this by Philippa Gregory:

    https://www.hrp.org.uk/media/1107/philippa-gregoryfinal.pdf

    Keep in mind, she is a historical novelist, not a historian, but she was writing history here, not fiction, and I am pretty sure she’s done her research.  If you get a few pages into her article, she says, “Typically of Henry’s court, no one at his court had the courage to tell him he was dying nor present him with a priest to administer the last rites.”

    We do know he had confession and communion the day before he died, but Archbishop Cranmer was summoned when Henry could no longer talk.  Soooo I misspoke per what I thought he would do when dying, not what actually happened.

    Thanks for asking.  I had great fun learning something new.

    • #54
  25. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Lois Lane (View Comment):

    Suspira (View Comment):

    Lois Lane (View Comment):
    Even Henry VIII who started the Protestant Reformation in England would have insisted on last rites while dying.

    “Would have”? Not sure if you’re saying he did or didn’t. I have read that Henry may have had last rites. Is there more definite information available?

    Henry remained a Catholic in practice, even though he broke from Rome. As Manny says, he simply wanted more control and the money that came with church lands. He was once named “Defender of the Faith,” after all. Then he was very good with rationalizing his actions, i.e. killing thousands upon thousands of people per his own desired ends.

    That said, I found this by Philippa Gregory:

    https://www.hrp.org.uk/media/1107/philippa-gregoryfinal.pdf

    Keep in mind, she is a historical novelist, not a historian, but she was writing history here, not fiction, and I am pretty sure she’s done her research. If you get a few pages into her article, she says, “Typically of Henry’s court, no one at his court had the courage to tell him he was dying nor present him with a priest to administer the last rites.”

    We do know he had confession and communion the day before he died, but Archbishop Cranmer was summoned when Henry could no longer talk. Soooo I misspoke per what I thought he would do when dying, not what actually happened.

    Thanks for asking. I had great fun learning something new.

    That was fascinating. And reminded me of what a detestable man he was.  Thanks. 

    • #55
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