A Catholic MP Dies in a Church Without the Last Rites in Post-Christian Britain

 

Image

Last Friday, David Amess, a member of Parliament (equivalent of a U.S. congressman) for the U.K. parliamentary seat of Southend West, was brutally murdered when he was attending his local constituency ‘s surgery (meeting with local voters) in a Methodist church. His suspected murderer, a likely Islamist Britain, was arrested at the scene and is right now awaiting charges.

Amess was an MP of many traits: 69 years of age, a well-liked member of Parliament by members of all political views, married, a father of five, a Conservative, and a Roman Catholic.

What’s interesting about Amess was that he wasn’t a Catholic politician in the vein of Nancy Pelosi or Joe Biden but a committed conservative Catholic with views well known against abortion and gay marriage. He was nevertheless well liked even by members who had converse views to this. He also broke with the Conservative Party when he believed it acted against social teaching against the poor and on animals. Amess was no poser though. Unlike many MPs or politicians of all kinds, he sought only to work for his local constituents, not power. He was widely admired by many in Westminster (where Parliament sits), not just by politicians but by many of the advisers, guards, cleaners, cooks, clerks, and parliamentary aides (the little people) who he always treated as an equal. It’s not for nothing that U.K. politicians have been in a state of shock all week.

When I heard the news on Friday and Saturday, I was deeply shocked. Many MPs are well known in Ireland, and British politics is followed here regularly, myself included in this watching. Many of our version of MPs (called here TDs) were shocked. Particularly the fact that this is the second murder of an MP in the U.K. within five years. Many Irish TDs work in a similar way to MPs, and so it shook many here. But as soon as I realised it was a likely Islamist murder, I must say this shock fell away. Europe has, shall we say, gotten used to this.

But my shock returned on Saturday when I realized the above image story occurred. Essentially, in the minutes after Amess was stabbed, the local parish priest, a friend of Amess, was called by concerned friends. He arrived at the Methodist church and asked the police to allow him to enter so he could say last rites for Amess. For those unaware, this is a sacrament that prepares the dying or the sick for the next life with God. It also can be a time to confess sins. The police on the scene radioed their commanders. He was denied.

As such, Amess died within reach of a Catholic priest. He was denied the last sacraments by either someone profoundly ignorant of the Christian and Catholic faith or someone just plain ignorant. Alas, as the priest said prayers, Amess passed onto his eternal reward. God have mercy on his soul.

Many Catholics in the U.K. and Ireland were outraged at this story as it came out on Saturday. Soon many non-Catholics, Protestants, and even nonbelievers joined in. The absolute disgrace of this was said by many. Many Catholics in Britain were particularly outraged and made their notice of it clear online. I was outraged with it here in Ireland; oddly I was far more outraged with this than the murder for some minutes. Murderers are murderers. Cruelty is what they do. Yet here was a U.K. institution adding to it, with blissful ignorance the likely beast.

Britain is a very secular country, even though it is often said to be a Protestant constitutional monarchy. The reality is that it is a country where Christians are a minority, and knowledge of all religions (except Islam) is very low. That is why the police did what they did in Southend. That is also why the fact Amess was murdered in a church has got so little play. Churches are just other buildings to a secular population, nothing special. God help them. This is the end result of practical atheism mixed with the failure of the Christian churches in the U.K. to preach the good news. God isn’t dead, but his traditions and beliefs are being forgotten.

It remains to be seen when a religious revival occurs in Europe or will it occur. But for now, we have to live with this reality: the very idea a man could be denied his religious freedoms in death because someone said so. This is the present in Europe. It’s coming to America too. For now, it’s present so readily in the U.K. Not just shocking, but terribly sad.

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  1. BDB Coolidge
    BDB
    @BDB

    (Briton)

    • #1
  2. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Sorry state of affairs. 

    But, Christians in America are in the same box. 

    the Evil One has made many inroads. 

    • #2
  3. kedavis Member
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Sorry state of affairs.

    But, Christians in America are in the same box.

    the Evil One has made many inroads.

    Yes, many people had parents and other relatives who died alone in nursing homes or hospitals, because they were denied visitation.

    • #3
  4. DonG (CAGW is a hoax) Coolidge
    DonG (CAGW is a hoax)
    @DonG

    Bring back “protect and serve”.

    • #4
  5. kedavis Member
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Paddy S: It remains to be seen when a religious revival occurs in Europe or will it occur. But for now we have to live with this reality. The very idea a man could be denied his religious freedoms in death because someone said so. This is the present in Europe. Its coming to America too. For now its present so readily in UK. Not just shocking, but terribly sad.  

    Before the pandemic/plandemic/whatever, was it common for priests to be allowed into crime scenes to administer last rites?  Seems to me they’re usually pretty concerned about contaminating the crime scene while gather evidence.  It might be argued that the evidence was less important since there were so many witnesses or whatever, but these days that doesn’t seem like enough, especially for a muslim fanatic.

    • #5
  6. 9thDistrictNeighbor Member
    9thDistrictNeighbor
    @9thDistrictNeighbor

    Learned men do not lose their knowledge while sleeping; otherwise, they would be ignorant on waking up and would have to go back to school. It is the same with all habitual prudence, temperance, faith, hope and charity. They are always present in the minds of just men even though those men are not always engaged in such acts. While a man is asleep it seems that all his habits are asleep with him and that they wake up with him. It is the same when a just man dies suddenly, whether crushed by a house that falls on him, killed by lightning, choked up by catarrh, or even dying out of his senses because of the violence of some burning fever.

    It is true that he does not die in the exercise of holy love but he dies in its habitual state. For this reason the Wise man says that even ‘if the just man is overtaken by death, he shall be at rest’ (Ps 61:9). To win eternal life it is sufficient to die in the state and habit of love of God and charity.

    ~St. Francis deSales

    • #6
  7. Doug Watt Moderator
    Doug Watt
    @DougWatt

    There are some details missing from the arrest of the perpetrator. From what I’ve read the murderer was arrested at the crime scene. He would have been covered in blood splatter if he stabbed someone multiple times.

    I do not believe that a priest giving the Last Rites would have compromised the crime scene.

    The victim in the crime you described was a good man. May he rest in peace. There are times as a police officer you should accommodate compassion, it could have been done, and should have been done for David Amess.

    • #7
  8. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    Doug Watt (View Comment):

    There are some details missing from the arrest of the perpetrator. From what I’ve read the murderer was arrested at the crime scene. He would have been covered in blood splatter if he stabbed someone multiple times.

    I do not believe that a priest giving the Last Rites would have compromised the crime scene.

    Some people can be trained too well. “Do not allow the crime scene to be compromised” has been stamped a little too hard into someone’s brain.

    • #8
  9. Suspira Member
    Suspira
    @Suspira

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Paddy S: It remains to be seen when a religious revival occurs in Europe or will it occur. But for now we have to live with this reality. The very idea a man could be denied his religious freedoms in death because someone said so. This is the present in Europe. Its coming to America too. For now its present so readily in UK. Not just shocking, but terribly sad.

    Before the pandemic/plandemic/whatever, was it common for priests to be allowed into crime scenes to administer last rites? Seems to me they’re usually pretty concerned about contaminating the crime scene while gather evidence. It might be argued that the evidence was less important since there were so many witnesses or whatever, but these days that doesn’t seem like enough, especially for a muslim fanatic.

    I, too, am curious how this scenario would have played out in the U.S. Keeping everyone away from a crime scene is the first commandment for police. I’d love some reassurance that our first responders would be more flexible.

    • #9
  10. Unsk Member
    Unsk
    @Unsk

    David Amess seems like one of the few politicians that really did his duty and served his constituents. It is a great loss.

    After watching many a Brit detective show on the tube, I can understand how the police there want to be protective of the crime scene,  but it is hard to see how a Priest giving the last  rites could have compromised the crime scene in any way, particularly of such a clear cut murder.

    DonG: “Bring back “protect and serve”.”

    What few realize is how far our “public servants” have strayed from the idea of actually serving the public. As an architect I deal often with inspectors, plan checkers, Planners and other “public servants”. Particularly in blue towns and cities, it now seems that their idea of  their job is to deny people their rights, not  protect them, thwart legal commerce  and efficient functioning of society in any way possible and to injure and control down to tiniest level any person  they feel that is  within their jurisdiction.  Using their power as a public servant to create conditions that would actually better society seems to be the furthest thing from their pea-brained, deranged minds.

    • #10
  11. BDB Coolidge
    BDB
    @BDB

    I’m not read up on this, but it seems to me that a crime scene with an active medical case is not treated foremost as a crime scene, but as a medical scene.  If this priority was inverted in this case, it’s clearly tunnel vision on the part of the crime-focused.

    Putting out the fire can destroy the evidence of arson.  Doesn’t mean we let the fire burn just to preserve the case.

    • #11
  12. kedavis Member
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    BDB (View Comment):

    I’m not read up on this, but it seems to me that a crime scene with an active medical case is not treated foremost as a crime scene, but as a medical scene. If this priority was inverted in this case, it’s clearly tunnel vision on the part of the crime-focused.

    Putting out the fire can destroy the evidence of arson. Doesn’t mean we let the fire burn just to preserve the case.

    For a medical scene, it would seem like the victim should be removed for treatment, as quickly as possible and with as much care as possible to avoid evidence problems.  And then last rites can be performed if needed, outside of the crime scene with no issue regarding evidence.

    If the victim was clearly beyond help – which seems to be the case here – then the issue isn’t about preventing further crime, or to keep the entire building from being destroyed and possibly others and maybe protecting other lives by extinguishing a fire.  It’s just the religious preferences of a particular group of people.  What if it were a religion where last rites involved a group of people putting on some kind of ceremony that is bound to destroy evidence?

    Jewish law requiring burial within 24 hours gets violated all the time in terms of autopsies etc.  Delay of last rites by perhaps just a few minutes or hours seems far less problematic.  And from what I’ve seen/heard/read there doesn’t seem to be a big problem with last rites performed for someone who has already died.  Seems like it would be pretty common in fact, since in many cases nobody knows someone has died for some time.

    • #12
  13. Stad Coolidge
    Stad
    @Stad

    Paddy S: The police on the scene radioed their commanders. He was denied.

    So sorry to hear about this.  In our country, the police would be punished by hours upon hours of sensitivity training on why they screwed up.  OTOH, it seems that thumbing one’s noses against Christian rites is perfectly acceptable this day and age.

    And they know as Christians, we’ll forgive them for their atrocious affront to our accomodation of belief that would have them drawn and quartered in a different age . . .

    • #13
  14. Manny Member
    Manny
    @Manny

    If the man is dead, then it would have been comprising a crime scene.  If the man is alive and dying you do things for the man.  The crime scene is secondary at that point.  Would they have stopped an EMT from helping him because of tampering with a crime scene?  Serving last rite is just as important. 

    And frankly, what would it have done to the crime scene?  The priest would have said prayers, listened to a confession if he were capable, give him a communion if were able to take it, and anoint his forehead with chrism oil.  I fail to see it. It was pure and simple a secular world mentality without understanding the spiritual needs of Christians.  

    And I can assure you, if Muslims had a similar ritual for the dying, the irony is that in England the odds are they would have let the Muslim perform some last rite.

    • #14
  15. Manny Member
    Manny
    @Manny

    kedavis (View Comment):
    And from what I’ve seen/heard/read there doesn’t seem to be a big problem with last rites performed for someone who has already died. 

    No, in Catholicism there are no last rites if he is already dead.  That’s incorrect.  There may be prayers for the dead, but they are not last rites.

    • #15
  16. kedavis Member
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Manny (View Comment):

    If the man is dead, then it would have been comprising a crime scene. If the man is alive and dying you do things for the man. The crime scene is secondary at that point. Would they have stopped an EMT from helping him because of tampering with a crime scene? Serving last rite is just as important.

    Huh?  Possibly keeping him from dying is the same importance as saying words for someone who is dying/dead?

     

    And frankly, what would it have done to the crime scene? The priest would have said prayers, listened to a confession if he were capable, give him a communion if were able to take it, and anoint his forehead with chrism oil. I fail to see it. It was pure and simple a secular world mentality without understanding the spiritual needs of Christians.

    And I can assure you, if Muslims had a similar ritual for the dying, the irony is that in England the odds are they would have let the Muslim perform some last rite.

    Very likely, but beside the point.  And I would mention again that last rites can’t be that critical since many Catholics die without having them at that time – I wouldn’t be surprised if more than half of Catholics die without receiving last rites AT THAT TIME – and I assume you’re not saying that every Catholic who dies without receiving last rites while still alive is doomed to Hell?

    So then we’re just haggling over price, as it were.  If Catholics aren’t really REQUIRED to receive last rites in the moments before death – especially since so many DON’T, and CAN’T – what’s the measurement of what is important?  Maybe someone getting ice cream isn’t more important, but preserving a crime scene easily could be.  Even if it seems “obvious” that no damage would be done.

    • #16
  17. Manny Member
    Manny
    @Manny

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    If the man is dead, then it would have been comprising a crime scene. If the man is alive and dying you do things for the man. The crime scene is secondary at that point. Would they have stopped an EMT from helping him because of tampering with a crime scene? Serving last rite is just as important.

    Huh? Possibly keeping him from dying is the same importance as saying words for someone who is dying/dead?

     

    And frankly, what would it have done to the crime scene? The priest would have said prayers, listened to a confession if he were capable, give him a communion if were able to take it, and anoint his forehead with chrism oil. I fail to see it. It was pure and simple a secular world mentality without understanding the spiritual needs of Christians.

    And I can assure you, if Muslims had a similar ritual for the dying, the irony is that in England the odds are they would have let the Muslim perform some last rite.

    Very likely, but beside the point. And I would mention again that last rites can’t be that critical since many Catholics die without having them at that time – I wouldn’t be surprised if more than half of Catholics die without receiving last rites AT THAT TIME – and I assume you’re not saying that every Catholic who dies without receiving last rites while still alive is doomed to Hell?

    So then we’re just haggling over price, as it were. If Catholics aren’t really REQUIRED to receive last rites in the moments before death – especially since so many DON’T, and CAN’T – what’s the measurement of what is important? Maybe someone getting ice cream isn’t more important, but preserving a crime scene easily could be. Even if it seems “obvious” that no damage would be done.

    Who says that you’re not required?  And who says most don’t?  Most Catholics don’t go to Church, unfortunately, and don’t know their faith.  But of those that are faithful, yes, most get last rites if it is possible.  Priests are constantly going to a hospital to administer last rites.  In fact have heard hospitals in majority Catholic countries have a priest stationed at a hospital (or used to) or have priests make routine rounds at a hospital for that and other purposes. 

    No I didn’t say that a priest should be there in lieu of EMT.  I said it was just as important.

    • #17
  18. kedavis Member
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Manny (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    If the man is dead, then it would have been comprising a crime scene. If the man is alive and dying you do things for the man. The crime scene is secondary at that point. Would they have stopped an EMT from helping him because of tampering with a crime scene? Serving last rite is just as important.

    Huh? Possibly keeping him from dying is the same importance as saying words for someone who is dying/dead?

     

    And frankly, what would it have done to the crime scene? The priest would have said prayers, listened to a confession if he were capable, give him a communion if were able to take it, and anoint his forehead with chrism oil. I fail to see it. It was pure and simple a secular world mentality without understanding the spiritual needs of Christians.

    And I can assure you, if Muslims had a similar ritual for the dying, the irony is that in England the odds are they would have let the Muslim perform some last rite.

    Very likely, but beside the point. And I would mention again that last rites can’t be that critical since many Catholics die without having them at that time – I wouldn’t be surprised if more than half of Catholics die without receiving last rites AT THAT TIME – and I assume you’re not saying that every Catholic who dies without receiving last rites while still alive is doomed to Hell?

    So then we’re just haggling over price, as it were. If Catholics aren’t really REQUIRED to receive last rites in the moments before death – especially since so many DON’T, and CAN’T – what’s the measurement of what is important? Maybe someone getting ice cream isn’t more important, but preserving a crime scene easily could be. Even if it seems “obvious” that no damage would be done.

    Who says that you’re not required? And who says most don’t? Most Catholics don’t go to Church, unfortunately, and don’t know their faith. But of those that are faithful, yes, most get last rites if it is possible. Priests are constantly going to a hospital to administer last rites. In fact have heard hospitals in majority Catholic countries have a priest stationed at a hospital (or used to) or have priests make routine rounds at a hospital for that and other purposes.

    No I didn’t say that a priest should be there in lieu of EMT. I said it was just as important.

    That really makes me feel sorry for Catholics.  Why should a physical act be so important to their spiritual life?  That really seems to devalue the spiritual side.  Like it’s more about procedure, bureaucracy, than about faith etc.  But considering there’s a Pope and such, I guess that’s not really surprising.

    • #18
  19. Manny Member
    Manny
    @Manny

    kedavis (View Comment):
    That really makes me feel sorry for Catholics.  Why should a physical act be so important to their spiritual life?  That really seems to devalue the spiritual side.  Like it’s more about procedure, bureaucracy, than about faith etc.  But considering there’s a Pope and such, I guess that’s not really surprising.

    First off, I’m going to by pass how insulting that sounds.

    Second, you couldn’t be more wrong.  In fact it’s breath taking how wrong you are.  Last rites and all the sacraments are a merging together of the physical and metaphysical.  It is your modern mentality that has created a wall between the spiritual and physical.  The spiritual is a continuum of the material, at least for Catholics, Orthodox, Coptics, Byzantine, and other Apostolic Churches.  Each sacrament, Baptism, Reconciliation, Matrimony, Holy Orders, Last Rite effects the soul.  The physical entity (water in the case of baptism, bread and wine in the case of the Eucharist) becomes consecrated with the divine, and so alters the soul.  It is a spiritual grace that you have no conception in your mentality.   Why do you have baptism in water?  It’s the same concept.  It is Protestants who are the outliers when it comes to understanding the spiritual.

    The Last Rite is a cleansing of sin before one dies.  The state of the soul at death is fixed and so it no longer has a chance to accept faith and be contrite, and so the Last Rite is a cleansing of sins from last confession and a final acceptance of faith before death, thereby if done with sincerity assures salvation.

    • #19
  20. kedavis Member
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Manny (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    That really makes me feel sorry for Catholics. Why should a physical act be so important to their spiritual life? That really seems to devalue the spiritual side. Like it’s more about procedure, bureaucracy, than about faith etc. But considering there’s a Pope and such, I guess that’s not really surprising.

    First off, I’m going to by pass how insulting that sounds.

    Second, you couldn’t be more wrong. In fact it’s breath taking how wrong you are. Last rites and all the sacraments are a merging together of the physical and metaphysical. It is your modern mentality that has created a wall between the spiritual and physical. The spiritual is a continuum of the spiritual, at last for Catholics, Orthodox, Coptics, Byzantine, and other Apostolic Churches. Each sacrament, Baptism, Reconciliation, Matrimony, Holy Orders, Last Rite effects the soul. The physical entity (water in the case of baptism, bread and wine in the case of the Eucharist) becomes consecrated with the divine, and so alters the soul. It is a spiritual grace that you have no conception in your mentality. Why do you have baptism in water? It’s the same concept. It is Protestants who are the outliers when it comes to understanding the spiritual.

    The Last Rite is a cleansing of sin before one dies. The state of the soul at death is fixed and so it no longer has a chance to accept faith and be contrite, and so the Last Rite is a cleansing of sins from last confession and a final acceptance of faith, thereby if done with sincerity assures salvation.

    So, you’re agreeing with my previous wonder that a Catholic believes if they happen to die without last rites – such as in their sleep, etc, or in car crashes which frequently happen where someone dies instantly without getting to a hospital with a priest etc – they’re eternally damned through no fault of their own?

    Poor Catholics.  Yes, I must feel sorry for them.  To do otherwise seems wicked.

    • #20
  21. Doug Watt Moderator
    Doug Watt
    @DougWatt

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    That really makes me feel sorry for Catholics. Why should a physical act be so important to their spiritual life? That really seems to devalue the spiritual side. Like it’s more about procedure, bureaucracy, than about faith etc. But considering there’s a Pope and such, I guess that’s not really surprising.

    First off, I’m going to by pass how insulting that sounds.

    Second, you couldn’t be more wrong. In fact it’s breath taking how wrong you are. Last rites and all the sacraments are a merging together of the physical and metaphysical. It is your modern mentality that has created a wall between the spiritual and physical. The spiritual is a continuum of the spiritual, at last for Catholics, Orthodox, Coptics, Byzantine, and other Apostolic Churches. Each sacrament, Baptism, Reconciliation, Matrimony, Holy Orders, Last Rite effects the soul. The physical entity (water in the case of baptism, bread and wine in the case of the Eucharist) becomes consecrated with the divine, and so alters the soul. It is a spiritual grace that you have no conception in your mentality. Why do you have baptism in water? It’s the same concept. It is Protestants who are the outliers when it comes to understanding the spiritual.

    The Last Rite is a cleansing of sin before one dies. The state of the soul at death is fixed and so it no longer has a chance to accept faith and be contrite, and so the Last Rite is a cleansing of sins from last confession and a final acceptance of faith, thereby if done with sincerity assures salvation.

    So, you’re agreeing with my previous wonder that a Catholic believes if they happen to die without last rites – such as in their sleep, etc, or in car crashes which frequently happen where someone dies instantly without getting to a hospital with a priest etc – they’re eternally damned through no fault of their own?

    Poor Catholics. Yes, I must feel sorry for them. To do otherwise seems wicked.

    There comes a time when you should put the shovel down, stop digging.

    • #21
  22. kedavis Member
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Doug Watt (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    That really makes me feel sorry for Catholics. Why should a physical act be so important to their spiritual life? That really seems to devalue the spiritual side. Like it’s more about procedure, bureaucracy, than about faith etc. But considering there’s a Pope and such, I guess that’s not really surprising.

    First off, I’m going to by pass how insulting that sounds.

    Second, you couldn’t be more wrong. In fact it’s breath taking how wrong you are. Last rites and all the sacraments are a merging together of the physical and metaphysical. It is your modern mentality that has created a wall between the spiritual and physical. The spiritual is a continuum of the spiritual, at last for Catholics, Orthodox, Coptics, Byzantine, and other Apostolic Churches. Each sacrament, Baptism, Reconciliation, Matrimony, Holy Orders, Last Rite effects the soul. The physical entity (water in the case of baptism, bread and wine in the case of the Eucharist) becomes consecrated with the divine, and so alters the soul. It is a spiritual grace that you have no conception in your mentality. Why do you have baptism in water? It’s the same concept. It is Protestants who are the outliers when it comes to understanding the spiritual.

    The Last Rite is a cleansing of sin before one dies. The state of the soul at death is fixed and so it no longer has a chance to accept faith and be contrite, and so the Last Rite is a cleansing of sins from last confession and a final acceptance of faith, thereby if done with sincerity assures salvation.

    So, you’re agreeing with my previous wonder that a Catholic believes if they happen to die without last rites – such as in their sleep, etc, or in car crashes which frequently happen where someone dies instantly without getting to a hospital with a priest etc – they’re eternally damned through no fault of their own?

    Poor Catholics. Yes, I must feel sorry for them. To do otherwise seems wicked.

    There comes a time when you should put the shovel down, stop digging.

    I’m not the one claiming that people who happen to die without getting last rites, are doomed to eternal damnation.  And somehow they seem to think that’s a good thing, or at least appropriate or something.

    • #22
  23. Manny Member
    Manny
    @Manny

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Doug Watt (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    That really makes me feel sorry for Catholics. Why should a physical act be so important to their spiritual life? That really seems to devalue the spiritual side. Like it’s more about procedure, bureaucracy, than about faith etc. But considering there’s a Pope and such, I guess that’s not really surprising.

    First off, I’m going to by pass how insulting that sounds.

    Second, you couldn’t be more wrong. In fact it’s breath taking how wrong you are. Last rites and all the sacraments are a merging together of the physical and metaphysical. It is your modern mentality that has created a wall between the spiritual and physical. The spiritual is a continuum of the spiritual, at last for Catholics, Orthodox, Coptics, Byzantine, and other Apostolic Churches. Each sacrament, Baptism, Reconciliation, Matrimony, Holy Orders, Last Rite effects the soul. The physical entity (water in the case of baptism, bread and wine in the case of the Eucharist) becomes consecrated with the divine, and so alters the soul. It is a spiritual grace that you have no conception in your mentality. Why do you have baptism in water? It’s the same concept. It is Protestants who are the outliers when it comes to understanding the spiritual.

    The Last Rite is a cleansing of sin before one dies. The state of the soul at death is fixed and so it no longer has a chance to accept faith and be contrite, and so the Last Rite is a cleansing of sins from last confession and a final acceptance of faith, thereby if done with sincerity assures salvation.

    So, you’re agreeing with my previous wonder that a Catholic believes if they happen to die without last rites – such as in their sleep, etc, or in car crashes which frequently happen where someone dies instantly without getting to a hospital with a priest etc – they’re eternally damned through no fault of their own?

    Poor Catholics. Yes, I must feel sorry for them. To do otherwise seems wicked.

    There comes a time when you should put the shovel down, stop digging.

    I’m not the one claiming that people who happen to die without getting last rites, are doomed to eternal damnation. And somehow they seem to think that’s a good thing, or at least appropriate or something.

    Where did I say that?  You’re not the brightest person around and that’s the nicest way to say that.  It’s a last chance to set right. He is not dammed if he doesn’t receive it. Look it up. I’m not wasting my breath on a borderline idiot. 

    • #23
  24. BDB Coolidge
    BDB
    @BDB

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Doug Watt (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    That really makes me feel sorry for Catholics. Why should a physical act be so important to their spiritual life? That really seems to devalue the spiritual side. Like it’s more about procedure, bureaucracy, than about faith etc. But considering there’s a Pope and such, I guess that’s not really surprising.

    First off, I’m going to by pass how insulting that sounds.

    Second, you couldn’t be more wrong. In fact it’s breath taking how wrong you are. Last rites and all the sacraments are a merging together of the physical and metaphysical. It is your modern mentality that has created a wall between the spiritual and physical. The spiritual is a continuum of the spiritual, at last for Catholics, Orthodox, Coptics, Byzantine, and other Apostolic Churches. Each sacrament, Baptism, Reconciliation, Matrimony, Holy Orders, Last Rite effects the soul. The physical entity (water in the case of baptism, bread and wine in the case of the Eucharist) becomes consecrated with the divine, and so alters the soul. It is a spiritual grace that you have no conception in your mentality. Why do you have baptism in water? It’s the same concept. It is Protestants who are the outliers when it comes to understanding the spiritual.

    The Last Rite is a cleansing of sin before one dies. The state of the soul at death is fixed and so it no longer has a chance to accept faith and be contrite, and so the Last Rite is a cleansing of sins from last confession and a final acceptance of faith, thereby if done with sincerity assures salvation.

    So, you’re agreeing with my previous wonder that a Catholic believes if they happen to die without last rites – such as in their sleep, etc, or in car crashes which frequently happen where someone dies instantly without getting to a hospital with a priest etc – they’re eternally damned through no fault of their own?

    Poor Catholics. Yes, I must feel sorry for them. To do otherwise seems wicked.

    There comes a time when you should put the shovel down, stop digging.

    I’m not the one claiming that people who happen to die without getting last rites, are doomed to eternal damnation. And somehow they seem to think that’s a good thing, or at least appropriate or something.

    @kedavis, what would an acceptable answer look like?  What’s the likelihood of getting it?  You’re not talking about marginal tax policy here.  I agree with Doug’s advice.

    • #24
  25. kedavis Member
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    I know I quoted you correctly, and here it is again:

     

    Manny (View Comment):
    The Last Rite is a cleansing of sin before one dies.  The state of the soul at death is fixed and so it no longer has a chance to accept faith and be contrite, and so the Last Rite is a cleansing of sins from last confession and a final acceptance of faith before death, thereby if done with sincerity assures salvation.

     

    If you’d like to explain how that doesn’t mean what the words clearly say, have at it.

    I suppose you could claim that someone who hasn’t committed any sins since their most recent confession doesn’t need last rites, but from what I’ve learned and observed over 60+ years, Catholics don’t believe that’s possible.

    Thus, your position – again, unless you’d like to backpedal now – is that anyone, or at least any Catholic, who dies without receiving last rites is ipso facto dying in a state of sin, which results in damnation.

    Now, I saw that Father Mulcahy didn’t believe that, maybe because he saw too many people who had died without the chance for last rites and came to understand that it didn’t make sense.  Which I suppose in your book would make him a heretic.

    (Yes I know, fictional character, blah blah blah.  But can you explain it?)

    • #25
  26. Doug Watt Moderator
    Doug Watt
    @DougWatt

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Doug Watt (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    That really makes me feel sorry for Catholics. Why should a physical act be so important to their spiritual life? That really seems to devalue the spiritual side. Like it’s more about procedure, bureaucracy, than about faith etc. But considering there’s a Pope and such, I guess that’s not really surprising.

    First off, I’m going to by pass how insulting that sounds.

    Second, you couldn’t be more wrong. In fact it’s breath taking how wrong you are. Last rites and all the sacraments are a merging together of the physical and metaphysical. It is your modern mentality that has created a wall between the spiritual and physical. The spiritual is a continuum of the spiritual, at last for Catholics, Orthodox, Coptics, Byzantine, and other Apostolic Churches. Each sacrament, Baptism, Reconciliation, Matrimony, Holy Orders, Last Rite effects the soul. The physical entity (water in the case of baptism, bread and wine in the case of the Eucharist) becomes consecrated with the divine, and so alters the soul. It is a spiritual grace that you have no conception in your mentality. Why do you have baptism in water? It’s the same concept. It is Protestants who are the outliers when it comes to understanding the spiritual.

    The Last Rite is a cleansing of sin before one dies. The state of the soul at death is fixed and so it no longer has a chance to accept faith and be contrite, and so the Last Rite is a cleansing of sins from last confession and a final acceptance of faith, thereby if done with sincerity assures salvation.

    So, you’re agreeing with my previous wonder that a Catholic believes if they happen to die without last rites – such as in their sleep, etc, or in car crashes which frequently happen where someone dies instantly without getting to a hospital with a priest etc – they’re eternally damned through no fault of their own?

    Poor Catholics. Yes, I must feel sorry for them. To do otherwise seems wicked.

    There comes a time when you should put the shovel down, stop digging.

    I’m not the one claiming that people who happen to die without getting last rites, are doomed to eternal damnation. And somehow they seem to think that’s a good thing, or at least appropriate or something.

    First of all that was not the claim Manny made. Second of all if you were truly interested you could have done some research:

    Yes. Many people have died without receiving the last rites (e.g. those who die in wars, car accidents, etc.). God is not bound by his sacraments (CCC 1257). And, “since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery” (CCC 1260).

    Thus, you need not despair of the salvation of your brother. Pope John Paul II in Reconciliatio et Paenitentia (Reconciliation and Penance) offers us these words of comfort: “Moreover, God in his merciful love is greater than our hearts, as St. John further teaches us, and can overcome all our psychological and spiritual resistance. So that, as St. Thomas writes, ‘considering the omnipotence and mercy of God, no one should despair of the salvation of anyone in this life’” (17). Continue to pray for the repose of his soul.

    Critics of the Catholic Church have been around for centuries, but if one chooses to be a critic I would suggest you get a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) so you could offer some intelligent comments.

    • #26
  27. kedavis Member
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Doug Watt (View Comment):

    Critics of the Catholic Church have been around for centuries, but if one chooses to be a critic I would suggest you get a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) so you could offer some intelligent comments.

    If Manny is wrong about Catholic theology, then Manny is wrong about Catholic theology.

    But I’m not wrong about what Manny has written.  And what Manny wrote, which I’ve quoted twice now, is that people who die without receiving last rites have died in a state of sin, which – as far as I’ve ever heard/read, and not just Catholicism – means damnation.

    That makes it Manny’s problem/mistake/error/whatever, not mine.  And that means that Manny needs to do the studying and correcting his beliefs and what he claims Catholic teachings are.

    • #27
  28. BDB Coolidge
    BDB
    @BDB

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Doug Watt (View Comment):

    Critics of the Catholic Church have been around for centuries, but if one chooses to be a critic I would suggest you get a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) so you could offer some intelligent comments.

    If Manny is wrong about Catholic theology, then Manny is wrong about Catholic theology.

    But I’m not wrong about what Manny has written. And what Manny wrote, which I’ve quoted twice now, is that people who die without receiving last rites have died in a state of sin, which – as far as I’ve ever heard/read, and not just Catholicism – means damnation.

    That makes it Manny’s problem/mistake/error/whatever, not mine. And that means that Manny needs to do the studying and correcting his beliefs and what he claims Catholic teachings are.

    Far be it from me to instruct the faithful in their faith.  

    • #28
  29. kedavis Member
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    BDB (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Doug Watt (View Comment):

    Critics of the Catholic Church have been around for centuries, but if one chooses to be a critic I would suggest you get a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) so you could offer some intelligent comments.

    If Manny is wrong about Catholic theology, then Manny is wrong about Catholic theology.

    But I’m not wrong about what Manny has written. And what Manny wrote, which I’ve quoted twice now, is that people who die without receiving last rites have died in a state of sin, which – as far as I’ve ever heard/read, and not just Catholicism – means damnation.

    That makes it Manny’s problem/mistake/error/whatever, not mine. And that means that Manny needs to do the studying and correcting his beliefs and what he claims Catholic teachings are.

    Far be it from me to instruct the faithful in their faith.

    Well if they tell me what their faith is, and I show them how it’s self-contradictory or something, that’s not MY problem.  It’s THEIRS.  They either don’t understand their faith very well, or they didn’t explain it well, or maybe their faith is just not very sensible.

    • #29
  30. Caryn Thatcher
    Caryn
    @Caryn

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Doug Watt (View Comment):

    Critics of the Catholic Church have been around for centuries, but if one chooses to be a critic I would suggest you get a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) so you could offer some intelligent comments.

    If Manny is wrong about Catholic theology, then Manny is wrong about Catholic theology.

    But I’m not wrong about what Manny has written. And what Manny wrote, which I’ve quoted twice now, is that people who die without receiving last rites have died in a state of sin, which – as far as I’ve ever heard/read, and not just Catholicism – means damnation.

    That makes it Manny’s problem/mistake/error/whatever, not mine. And that means that Manny needs to do the studying and correcting his beliefs and what he claims Catholic teachings are.

    Doug gave you good advice.  Stop being a jerk.  Manny’s perfectly right not to waste time with you.

    • #30