The Justification for Forced Vaccination of Children

 

Who knew that the reason children should be forced to get the COVID vaccine is because of “bug-nut crazy right wingers, who are a bunch of idiots.”  That is what I was told when I replied to a Tweet about pending vaccine approval for 5-11 year olds.  After I fully agreed with said Tweet stating that parents should be allowed to choose whether their children get the COVID vaccine, I was called a dumbass that had to do mental gymnastics to come to my conclusion.  At first, I tried to politely point out that we shouldn’t force children, who are at significantly lower risk of getting COVID, much less a serious case of it, to get vaccinated to protect adults who choose not to. I was quickly told, yes they do, then insulted (see above).  Finally,  the “bug-nut crazy right winger” argument was made (no mental gymnastics there!) to justify the mandate. Yep, children should be forced to get COVID vaccines because crazy right wingers won’t.

For what it’s worth, the person I was arguing with cited an article supporting her claim that children are efficient spreaders, and I read both the article in Forbes and the paper the article reported on.  Unfortunately for my debate opponent (and even more unfortunate for me, because Twitter is not a forum conducive to a full analysis of the report) the report does not make her case.

The article studied 224 children who got COVID at camp and their household contacts.  12% (46) of the household contacts who chose to get tested had positive tests and 10% of them (4) were hospitalized.  The problem is, the study cites the number of children infected by age, but not the number of secondary infections by age. In other words, it is not known whether the household members who subsequently tested positive were infected by 5-year-olds, 19-year-olds, and anywhere in between.  Hence, the study does not distinguish between infection rate by age group.

Furthermore, the study makes no reference to the fact that the infections by age were not constant – there were more older children infected than younger children.  It is well understood that older children – teenagers – get COVID at higher rates than younger children.  After all, many of them are physically close to being adults.  A different study that tried to measure transmission by age group said that children 0-3 may actually be higher transmitters, but that can possibly be at least partly attributed to the fact that protective measures by caregivers is more difficult with a baby/toddler than with an older child.

In any case, all these studies do is make it more reasonable, not less, that parents need to consider their own children and their own household situation and make their own decision about whether to get their children vaccinated. All these studies show that younger children are less likely to get COVID in the first place.  Not only does this mean less risk to our children, it also means less risk to the adults around them.  People who want to force vaccines on children because crazy right wingers won’t get vaccinated are merely the other side of the same coin.

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  1. Stina Inactive
    Stina
    @CM

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    hoowitts (View Comment):
    As I understand the functionality, the majority of COVID-19 ‘vaccines’ are simply not vaccines as we commonly accept the definition. From the Mayo Clinic: “The Moderna COVID-19 vaccine is 94% effective in preventing the COVID-19 virus with symptoms” (my emphasis added).

    How do you think that statement keeps the covid-19 vaccines from being vaccines? Seems like a non sequitur to me.

    Do you know about the Pertussis vaccine from a few years ago? Meaning the 2011-2013 time frame. Pretty certain that was it. Maybe it was 2015, but pretty certain it was then.

    There was a huge crisis in pertussis in infants because the boosters (given to adults) only removed the symptoms, did not prevent the disease. It was an ineffective vaccine and they said so at the time. First, vaccines are supposed to prevent spread. That’s the difference between a disease and an epidemic. As a public health measure, that is the SOLE concern about forcing vaccines. Otherwise, public health has absolutely no reason to care if the vaccine does not stop spread.

    Second, pertussis has absolutely no effect on older populations. Our lungs are big enough not to be seriously compromised by pertussis. The entire point of vaccinating the adult population is to prevent spread to infants who were vulnerable and unable to be vaccinated.

    They had tried something different with pertussis that cycle and it was considered a failure. Now only the new mom community and anyone well connected to a new mom at that time were really dialed into that, but the point remains – a vaccine that prevents symptoms but not spread is not an effective vaccine. In fact, much like pain clueing you in that something is wrong, a spreadable disease without symptoms is a broken signal.

    And we masked people because of asymptomatic spread, which turned out to be not true, and now you think a vaccine that promotes asymptomatic spread is a working vaccine?

    • #31
  2. hoowitts Coolidge
    hoowitts
    @hoowitts

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    hoowitts (View Comment):
    As I understand the functionality, the majority of COVID-19 ‘vaccines’ are simply not vaccines as we commonly accept the definition. From the Mayo Clinic: “The Moderna COVID-19 vaccine is 94% effective in preventing the COVID-19 virus with symptoms” (my emphasis added).

    How do you think that statement keeps the covid-19 vaccines from being vaccines? Seems like a non sequitur to me.

    Maybe my phrasing was poor discerning conventional vs. mRNA vaccines. Correct me if I’m wrong here, but those (conventionally) inoculated against smallpox, mumps, rubella (and the like) no longer walk around with active virus. The immunity conferred is permanent, for all intents and purposes eliminating the virus, as the body produces T-lymphocytes and antibodies to ‘do battle’.

    The mRNA vaccine functionality works differently. mRNA tells the body to produce the spike protein the coronavirus uses to latch onto human cells. It essentially confuses the virus with the ‘spike protein’ production and the coronavirus ‘loses its parking space’ on the cell (apologies for the gross oversimplification). If I understand the mechanism correctly, the coronavirus isn’t ‘defeated’ conventionally but by interruption of it’s lifecycle (inability to replicate), thus allowing the vector to carry and shed quantities of live virus until the virus dies a natural death.

    I see the difference between the two ‘vaccines’ as more than semantics, even though they may share some similarities.  Looking for any corrections where needed – I am not a virologist, immunologist or microbiologist, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

    • #32
  3. Norm McDonald Had A Farm Inactive
    Norm McDonald Had A Farm
    @Pseudodionysius

    Gene therapy, baby. “Vaccines” give the manufacturer indemnity from liability. “Gene Therapy” does not. All of life is Die Hard with Hans Gruber.

    • #33
  4. hoowitts Coolidge
    hoowitts
    @hoowitts

    Norm McDonald Had A Farm (View Comment):
    Gene therapy, baby. “Vaccines” give the manufacturer indemnity from liability. “Gene Therapy” does not. All of life is Die Hard with Hans Gruber.

    “Yippie-Ki-Yay Mother[CoC]”  ~John McClane~

    • #34
  5. Norm McDonald Had A Farm Inactive
    Norm McDonald Had A Farm
    @Pseudodionysius

    hoowitts (View Comment):

    Norm McDonald Had A Farm (View Comment):
    Gene therapy, baby. “Vaccines” give the manufacturer indemnity from liability. “Gene Therapy” does not. All of life is Die Hard with Hans Gruber.

    “Yippie-Ki-Yay Mother[CoC]” ~John McClane~

    “…I’ll be lying on a beach collecting 20%” – President of Pfizer

    • #35
  6. Bishop Wash Member
    Bishop Wash
    @BishopWash

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Bishop Wash (View Comment):
    A guy on Deep State Twitter today said that we tried the carrots and now it’s time for hammers to the kneecaps

    That link is from 2017, not this week. If I knew somebody really said that and meant it, I would like to use it against the left. However, not without a direct, verifiable quote I’m not going to do it, not after the media did what they did to Donald Trump.

    The link was to explain what Deep State Twitter is. I can’t link to the quote because it’s on another system but should be accessible through FOIA. It’s funny to watch them occasionally warn that things can be FOIA requested while at the same time make inflammatory statements. They don’t see themselves as having crazy thoughts.

    • #36
  7. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    hoowitts (View Comment):

    The mRNA vaccine functionality works differently. mRNA tells the body to produce the spike protein the coronavirus uses to latch onto human cells. It essentially confuses the virus with the ‘spike protein’ production and the coronavirus ‘loses its parking space’ on the cell (apologies for the gross oversimplification). If I understand the mechanism correctly, the coronavirus isn’t ‘defeated’ conventionally but by interruption of it’s lifecycle (inability to replicate), thus allowing the vector to carry and shed quantities of live virus until the virus dies a natural death.

    You are right that the mRNA tells the body to produce the spike protein–the same spike protein the coronavirus uses to latch onto human cells.

    However, that spike protein doesn’t confuse or interact directly with the virus. Instead it causes your immune system to react aginsit and produce antibodies, t-cells, and memory b-cells just as your body would do in reaction to the virus itself.  Those things give your body protection against the virus.  The antibodies are sort of the front-line, always-on-duty mechanism that’s on guard against the sars-cov-2 or anything resembling it. (How close the resemblance has to be is one of many areas where we’re still learning.)  Some of the t-cells can detect and destroy the viruses in places where the antibodies can’t.  The memory b-cells can create more antibodies when needed, but it takes time. Even if the always-there, always-on-duty antibodies and t-cells can’t eliminate the virus right off, they buy time while b-cells create more antibodies.  If the first wave of antibodies (and t-cells, about which my knowledge is even fuzzier) can’t destroy all the virus, you probably get a cold-like infection.  But in the vast majority of vaccinated persons, the b-cells will have had enough time to ramp up production of antibodies to keep the virus from succeeding against its next target, the lungs. In those cases where that defense fails, too, the disease gets a lot more dangerous. 

    The way the virus is kept from replicating is by killing it (if you can even think of a virus as having life). If its structure is broken up and metabolized, it can no longer reproduce. As far as I know, that’s the way all viruses are defeated. I can’t even think of another way. But there are a few people here who understand these mechanisms a lot better than I do, and they often have better explanations.

     

    • #37
  8. Norm McDonald Had A Farm Inactive
    Norm McDonald Had A Farm
    @Pseudodionysius

    The physical appearance of the COVID virus can been depicted as a central sphere of viral protein surrounded completely by spear-like appendages. Known as spike proteins, they are very analogous to the quills surrounding a porcupine. And just as the porcupine stabs its victim, these spike proteins penetrate into cell membranes throughout the body. After this penetration, protein-dissolving enzymes are activated, the cell membrane breaks down, the viral sphere enters the cytoplasm through this membrane breach, and the metabolism of the cell is subsequently “hijacked” to manufacture more viral particles. These spike proteins are the focus of a great deal of ongoing research examining vaccine side effects (Belouzard et al., 2012; Shang et al., 2020).

    The spike protein first attaches to ACE2 (angiotensin converting enzyme 2) receptors in the cell membranes (Pillay, 2020). This initial binding step is vital to triggering the subsequent sequence of events that brings the virus inside the cell. When this binding is blocked by competition or prompt enough displacement with an appropriate therapeutic agent, the virus cannot enter the cell, the infectious process is effectively stopped, and the immune defenses of the body are freed to mop up, metabolize, and eliminate the viral pathogens, or just the spike protein alone if free and no longer attached to a viral particle.

    Although ACE2 is found in many different cells throughout the body, it is especially noteworthy to realize that it is the initial target bound by coronavirus on the epithelial cells lining the airways after pathogen inhalation (Hoffmann et al., 2020). ACE2 expression (concentration) is also especially high on lung alveolar epithelial cells (Alifano et al., 2020). This cell membrane-bound virus can then begin the process that eventually results in the severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) seen in clinically-advanced COVID infections (Perrotta et al., 2020; Saponaro et al., 2020). The SARS presentation manifests most clearly when the degree of oxidative stress in the lungs is very elevated. This stage of COVID infection-related extreme oxidative stress is often referred to in the literature as a cytokine storm, and left unchecked this invariably leads to death (Hu et al., 2021).

    • #38
  9. Norm McDonald Had A Farm Inactive
    Norm McDonald Had A Farm
    @Pseudodionysius

    Increasing concern has focused on the continued presence of the spike protein in the blood by itself, unattached to a virion, following COVID vaccination. Supposedly intended to initiate an immune response to the entire virus particle, the spike protein injections are disseminating throughout the body rather than staying put in the upper arm at the vaccine site while the immune response to it evolves. Furthermore, it also appears that these circulating spike proteins can enter cells on their own and replicate themselves without attached virus particles. This not only wreaks havoc inside those cells, it helps to assure the indefinite presence of the spike protein throughout the body.

    It has also been suggested that large amounts of spike protein are just binding ACE2 receptors and not proceeding any further into the cell, effectively blocking or disabling normal ACE2 function in a given tissue. Additionally, when the spike protein binds a cell wall and “stops” there, the spike protein serves as a hapten (antigen) which can then initiate an autoimmune (antibody or antibody-like) response to the cell itself, rather than to the virus particle to which it is usually attached. Depending on the cell types to which such spike proteins bind, a wide variety of diseases with autoimmune qualities can result.

    Finally, another very worrisome property of the spike protein which alone would be of great concern is that the spike protein itself appears to be highly toxic. This intrinsic toxicity, along with the apparent ability of the spike protein to replicate itself indefinitely within the cells it enters, probably represents the way in which the vaccine can inflict its worst long-term damage, as the production of this toxin can continue indefinitely without other external factors at play.

    In fact, the long-haul COVID syndrome likely represents a low-grade unresolved smoldering COVID infection with the same kind of spike protein persistence and clinical impact as is seen in many individuals after their COVID vaccinations (Mendelson et al., 2020; Aucott and Rebman, 2021; Raveendran, 2021).

    • #39
  10. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    If people actually would read that Thomas E. Levy article and follow up on his citations (as well as the claims for which there are no citations) they probably wouldn’t be posting it as recommended reading. 

    It’s a better-crafted deception than you often get. The first three paragraphs do a decent job (as far as I can tell) of summarizing much of what is known about how coronaviruses work, and the citations are relevant.

    Then he pulls a switch, saying, “Increasing concern has focused on the continued presence of the spike protein in the blood by itself, unattached to a virion, following COVID vaccination….”

    However, he provides no citations in support of this notion. None.  He doesn’t name a single researcher who is studying this alleged issue, much less point to a study on the topic.   From this point on, what he says is garbage, for which he provides no supporting evidence or plausible reason to believe.

    The citations at the end are legitimate articles about long-term covid, perhaps put there to dress up the Levy article and make it look scientific and legitimate to those who don’t bother to look for the connection between them and what he wrote.  

    After I finished reading his article and following up on the citations (given in full in the web page the above comments link to) I googled for more information on this guy. I found a list of his published books on Amazon.  From reading the Amazon descriptions, it seems he belongs to what I call the magic potion school of medicine. 

    • #40
  11. Norm McDonald Had A Farm Inactive
    Norm McDonald Had A Farm
    @Pseudodionysius

    Finished reading his article and following up on the citations (given in full in the web page the above comments link to) I googled for more information on this guy. I found a list of his published books on Amazon. From reading the Amazon descriptions, it seems he belongs to what I call the magic potion school of medicine.

    Then obviously you’ve watched his videos as well:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9SbPqO_Ay4

    • #41
  12. Norm McDonald Had A Farm Inactive
    Norm McDonald Had A Farm
    @Pseudodionysius

    • #42
  13. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Norm McDonald Had A Farm (View Comment):

    Finished reading his article and following up on the citations (given in full in the web page the above comments link to) I googled for more information on this guy. I found a list of his published books on Amazon. From reading the Amazon descriptions, it seems he belongs to what I call the magic potion school of medicine.

    Then obviously you’ve watched his videos as well:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9SbPqO_Ay4

    Obviously?

    • #43
  14. Stina Inactive
    Stina
    @CM

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    If people actually would read that Thomas E. Levy article and follow up on his citations (as well as the claims for which there are no citations) they probably wouldn’t be posting it as recommended reading.

    It’s a better-crafted deception than you often get. The first three paragraphs do a decent job (as far as I can tell) of summarizing much of what is known about how coronaviruses work, and the citations are relevant.

    Then he pulls a switch, saying, “Increasing concern has focused on the continued presence of the spike protein in the blood by itself, unattached to a virion, following COVID vaccination….”

    However, he provides no citations in support of this notion. None. He doesn’t name a single researcher who is studying this alleged issue, much less point to a study on the topic. From this point on, what he says is garbage, for which he provides no supporting evidence or plausible reason to believe.

    The citations at the end are legitimate articles about long-term covid, perhaps put there to dress up the Levy article and make it look scientific and legitimate to those who don’t bother to look for the connection between them and what he wrote.

    After I finished reading his article and following up on the citations (given in full in the web page the above comments link to) I googled for more information on this guy. I found a list of his published books on Amazon. From reading the Amazon descriptions, it seems he belongs to what I call the magic potion school of medicine.

    Japan’s study found that.

    • #44
  15. Stina Inactive
    Stina
    @CM

    Speaking of specious claims of unvaccinated/vaccinated – https://www.jewishpress.com/news/israel/the-lives-of-a-million-israelis-will-change-radically-when-green-tags-expire-october-3/2021/09/24/

    • #45
  16. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Stina (View Comment):
    Japan’s study found that

    What Japan study found what?

    • #46
  17. Norm McDonald Had A Farm Inactive
    Norm McDonald Had A Farm
    @Pseudodionysius

    From reading the Amazon descriptions, it seems he belongs to what I call the magic potion school of medicine.

    I own all of his books and have used his protocols as well as been in contact with the Riordan clinic. But, you’re right, I would simply rely on Amazon book blurbs and not actually investigate his claims and references because science.

    • #47
  18. Stina Inactive
    Stina
    @CM

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):
    Japan’s study found that

    What Japan study found what?

    Free floating spikes.

    • #48
  19. Norm McDonald Had A Farm Inactive
    Norm McDonald Had A Farm
    @Pseudodionysius

    • #49
  20. Norm McDonald Had A Farm Inactive
    Norm McDonald Had A Farm
    @Pseudodionysius

    • #50
  21. Stina Inactive
    Stina
    @CM

    And I’m not helping you round out your studies. You reject everything others find informational. On this subject, your standards of evidence (not even proof) are far higher than I find reasonable. Engaging you on a data/source mission is nigh impossible to convince YOU. I can only point to what convinces me the statement is true.

    You have seen the Japan study in comments before. They showed the spikes were not staying in the muscular tissue of the shoulder and were floating and lodging in other tissue. They had found spikes in reproductive tissue as evidence of that.

    • #51
  22. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Stina (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):
    Japan’s study found that

    What Japan study found what?

    Free floating spikes.

    Citation, please.  Japan has a big scientific establishment and produces a lot of research.   I suppose a lot of the papers are in Japanese. If your source is in Japanese I’ll have to rely on English-language reviewers. But I need something to go on. I presume you did, too, or you wouldn’t refer to it.

    • #52
  23. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Stina (View Comment):

    And I’m not helping you round out your studies. You reject everything others find informational. On this subject, your standards of evidence (not even proof) are far higher than I find reasonable. Engaging you on a data/source mission is nigh impossible to convince YOU. I can only point to what convinces me the statement is true.

    You have seen the Japan study in comments before. They showed the spikes were not staying in the muscular tissue of the shoulder and were floating and lodging in other tissue. They had found spikes in reproductive tissue as evidence of that.

    If there has been a Japanese study that was referenced before, I missed it. I do remember somebody pointing to a claim about free-floating spikes before, and didn’t follow up on enough of it to make any sense out of it. I don’t know that it had anything to do with Japan.  I’m extremely skeptical, because nothing I know about human biology would give a plausible mechanism for how it could work, but lots of things that seemed implausible to me have turned out to be right.   And a lot of things have not. 

    I’m just using the standards of evidence that everyone uses when they go to the trouble.  Do you believe Joe Biden just because he pushes the FDA to approve boosters for all? Do you believe Nancy Pelosi about an insurrection on January 6 without checking out the information behind her claim?  I think not.  Apply those same standards and methods to this. 

    If you find some of these sources informative, give some evidence that you find them informative. Share the information. Not a single person here has provided evidence that he/she has read the Levy paper, or even that he/she has read my comment critical of it.  I don’t believe people who say information was informative when they give no indication they’ve even read it.  Does it not seem strange that if Levy could have cited other studies in support of his claim about free-floating spikes that he didn’t do so, even though he did cite other legitimate research that was not germane to his assertion?

    I’m now at a place where I can’t watch YouTube videos, and although I’m busy visiting family (the purpose of my visit away from home) the fact that I can’t let YouTube videos distract me helped me to look at that Levy paper more closely.  It didn’t take much to find out that he didn’t have anything to back up his statement.  

     

    • #53
  24. Norm McDonald Had A Farm Inactive
    Norm McDonald Had A Farm
    @Pseudodionysius

    Stina (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):
    Japan’s study found that

    What Japan study found what?

    Free floating spikes.

    Who is Dr. Bryam Bridle, for $500 Alex.

    COVID vaccine researchers had previously assumed mRNA COVID vaccines would behave like traditional vaccines. The vaccine’s spike protein — responsible for infection and its most severe symptoms — would remain mostly in the injection site at the shoulder muscle or local lymph nodes.

    But new research obtained by a group of scientists contradicts that theory, a Canadian cancer vaccine researcher said last week.

    “We made a big mistake. We didn’t realize it until now,” said Byram Bridle, a viral immunologist and associate professor at University of Guelph, Ontario. “We thought the spike protein was a great target antigen, we never knew the spike protein itself was a toxin and was a pathogenic protein. So by vaccinating people we are inadvertently inoculating them with a toxin.”

     

    • #54
  25. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Norm McDonald Had A Farm (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):
    Japan’s study found that

    What Japan study found what?

    Free floating spikes.

    Who is Dr. Bryam Bridle, for $500 Alex.

    COVID vaccine researchers had previously assumed mRNA COVID vaccines would behave like traditional vaccines. The vaccine’s spike protein — responsible for infection and its most severe symptoms — would remain mostly in the injection site at the shoulder muscle or local lymph nodes.

    But new research obtained by a group of scientists contradicts that theory, a Canadian cancer vaccine researcher said last week.

    “We made a big mistake. We didn’t realize it until now,” said Byram Bridle, a viral immunologist and associate professor at University of Guelph, Ontario. “We thought the spike protein was a great target antigen, we never knew the spike protein itself was a toxin and was a pathogenic protein. So by vaccinating people we are inadvertently inoculating them with a toxin.”

    The vaccine is associated with myocarditis. That seems to be a solid concern.  But that it’s due to the spike protein getting to places in your body it wasn’t expected to be?  That seems to be just made up.  We want the vaccine to go places other than just in your arm. That’s why some people are thinking out loud about vaccines that can target the body’s respiratory openings.

    There is no summary of the findings in that Japanese paper that is cited. I wonder if Bridle is even able to read scientific papers in Japanese.  There is nothing in his resume that suggests a facility with the language and nothing in the article suggesting he read it.   If that Japanese paper had something to say, surely he would have summarized it for us, wouldn’t he?

    Of course, the virus itself gets to places in your body where we don’t want it and results in various types of inflammation in some cases.  So in a broad sense, I suppose if you’re blaming the cases of myocarditis on the vaccine, you’re blaming it on the spike protein, because that’s what the vaccine does: produce the spike protein so your body can react against it.  But to play the drama queen and say, “we never knew the spike protein itself was a toxin,”  is somewhat disingenuous.  You let a sars-cov-2 infection get into your body, and you’ll have spike proteins out the wazoo (literally) and you’ll find out what kind of “toxic” effect it can have.

    Far better for most of us to get a small, controlled amount of it via the vaccine.   For young males in the age group that may be susceptible to the myocarditis problems, the odds may work differently. If I were in that age group I wouldn’t want the vaccine forced on me.  Maybe I’d take it and maybe I wouldn’t, but forcing it on people is a bad idea.

    It’s an example of why Biden Inc. ought to lay off the vaccine mandates.  People like Bridle aren’t helping when they make the concerns about myocarditis look and sound bogus.

    • #55
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