One Way Out: Immunity

 

ZDoggMD, or Dr. Zubin Damania, has been a voice of reason throughout all of this COVID nonsense.

His most recent full-length interview is well worth your watch.

What you’ll hear:

  • Failure of messaging on vaccinations (and some interesting information on PCR testing)
  • Vaccines work, but shaming and mandates don’t (Dr. Damania has come out strongly against mandates, because he believes proper messaging would have been better)
  • SARS-CoV-2 will never go away, but it will become an endemic cold.
  • Vaccines are better than masks
  • Discussing therapuetics (yes, even Ivermectin) is important and yet, the left lose their minds over it
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  1. DonG (2+2=5. Say it!) Coolidge
    DonG (2+2=5. Say it!)
    @DonG

    Isn’t immunity the way out for every pandemic?  The question is if natural immunity is good enough and vaccine immunity is good enough.   I think we need both, since the vaccines are too leaky.

    • #1
  2. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot) Member
    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot)
    @ArizonaPatriot

    Spin, I’ll take a look at this if I get a chance, but you might be able to answer a couple of questions.

    What would “proper messaging” have looked like?

    This one has been a train wreck, and I’m concerned that it’s been driven by strange politics.  Back when it looked like Trump’s plan might get us a vaccine before the election, I seem to recall the Dems saying that you couldn’t trust a Trump vaccine.  But their guy Joe was in charge when the vaccines started rolling out in earnest, and it turned out to be mostly conservatives who won’t take it (and black folks, I think).  It’s weird, to me.

    Maybe the big problem wasn’t the vaccines, but the mask flip-flopping, and the lockdown hysteria, and the suppression of the Chinese lab leak story.   Oh, and the George Floyd thing and all of those “mostly peaceful” protests.  There are certainly plenty of reasons for people not to believe what they are told.  

    How could this have been done better?  Is there a way to do it better now?

    • #2
  3. Spin Coolidge
    Spin
    @Spin

    DonG (2+2=5. Say it!) (View Comment):

    Isn’t immunity the way out for every pandemic? The question is if natural immunity is good enough and vaccine immunity is good enough. I think we need both, since the vaccines are too leaky.

    Right.  It seems obvious doesn’t it?  But it’s not what anyone’s talking about.

    The vaccine’s aren’t “too leaky”, but ok. 

    It’s either a vaccine (and hey, natural exposure, which I bet most of us have had, will help too) or it’s an infection.

    The problem is that the Biden administration and most of the talking heads discount natural immunity.  There’s no exception to the current mandate for folks who’ve already been infected, but there should be.  

    • #3
  4. Spin Coolidge
    Spin
    @Spin

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    What would “proper messaging” have looked like?

    Get vaxxed, go back to normal.  

    Vaccine hesitant?  Ask questions.  We won’t shame you.  We won’t treat you like you are stupid.  We’ll answer your questions.  

    I know what proper messaging doesn’t look like.  “We’ve grown impatient with you children…”  I’ve said that to people myself.  Just even this week, if I’m honest.  

    • #4
  5. Spin Coolidge
    Spin
    @Spin

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    Maybe the big problem wasn’t the vaccines, but the mask flip-flopping, and the lockdown hysteria, and the suppression of the Chinese lab leak story.   Oh, and the George Floyd thing and all of those “mostly peaceful” protests.  There are certainly plenty of reasons for people not to believe what they are told.  

    Correct.  The government has caused themselves to be untrustworthy.  I think what adds to it is the Trump election business.  Wherever you come down on that isn’t the point.  A lot of people think the election was stolen, and those same people seem to be the ones who are hard core anti-(COVID)vax.

    Maybe if we could find our way to electing someone that isn’t a complete trainwreck for the next pandemic.  And do it at a time when the nation isn’t so sharply divided.  I mean, on your own post you’ve got folks saying that you shouldn’t ask your doctor for advice on COVID, and that sentiment is on the left as well, just to support that individuals current “opinion” on COVID.  

    • #5
  6. CarolJoy, Not So Easy To Kill Coolidge
    CarolJoy, Not So Easy To Kill
    @CarolJoy

    Spin (View Comment):

    DonG (2+2=5. Say it!) (View Comment):

    Isn’t immunity the way out for every pandemic? The question is if natural immunity is good enough and vaccine immunity is good enough. I think we need both, since the vaccines are too leaky.

    Right. It seems obvious doesn’t it? But it’s not what anyone’s talking about.

    The vaccine’s aren’t “too leaky”, but ok.

    It’s either a vaccine (and hey, natural exposure, which I bet most of us have had, will help too) or it’s an infection.

    The problem is that the Biden administration and most of the talking heads discount natural immunity. There’s no exception to the current mandate for folks who’ve already been infected, but there should be.

    Yes there should be an exception for those of us who have been infected, as the risk to us for adverse effects is 300 to 400% higher.

    Also I wish these doctors were addressing the fact as that since there are totally effective remedies like  ivermectin and HCQ, going into a vaccine is ridiculous.

    The public is very charged up against babies kids and adolescents getting jabbed, since the risk to benefit equation is all risk no benefit.

    Anyway the discussion of these two people is lukewarm, faulty and pointless. Especially when they make the statement that Iceland did everything right. Well if doing everything right means the public went all in and over 90% of Icelanders are now vaxxed, then the question still needs to be asked: why were there then breakthrough cases and variant cases? In Iceland there is no possibility that the unvaccinated can be blamed.

    And oh my goodness, their discussion on PCR is childish.  Plus contact tracing only works if initiated within the first 6 weeks of an epidemic – starting a year and more later is pointless!

     

    • #6
  7. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot) Member
    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot)
    @ArizonaPatriot

    Spin (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    What would “proper messaging” have looked like?

    Get vaxxed, go back to normal.

    Vaccine hesitant? Ask questions. We won’t shame you. We won’t treat you like you are stupid. We’ll answer your questions.

    I know what proper messaging doesn’t look like. “We’ve grown impatient with you children…” I’ve said that to people myself. Just even this week, if I’m honest.

    I have a couple of follow-up questions.

    If the policy is get vaxxed, go back to normal, this implies that if you don’t get vaxxed, you don’t go back to normal.  Doesn’t it? 

    In what way would this be applied?  Does it mean that the unvaxxed still have to wear masks?  That they can’t travel on planes?  That they can’t go to work?  Something else?

    • #7
  8. Caryn Thatcher
    Caryn
    @Caryn

    I’m going to take the hour and listen to it.  If CarolJoy thinks it’s junk, it must be worth a listen.

    • #8
  9. Sandy Member
    Sandy
    @Sandy

    No messaging could ever overcome my opposition to a vaccine that has been tested for so short a period. I have other reasons for not trusting this particular vaccine, but for me, thorough testing over a period of years is a sine qua non.  While I can understand that the circumstances of the pandemic might warrant offering a quickly produced product to the highly vulnerable if they wish to take it, this does not mean universal vaccination is a good idea. I am not comforted, either, by the CDC’s rushing to get out a vaccine for young children, something that I think goes against all reason, and once again rouses suspicion of the supposed guardians of public health.

     

    • #9
  10. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    I seldom watch recommended videos but I’ll watch this one because I learned about Monica Gandhi a few days ago and have become a fan.  You need say no more.

    • #10
  11. Spin Coolidge
    Spin
    @Spin

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    If the policy is get vaxxed, go back to normal, this implies that if you don’t get vaxxed, you don’t go back to normal.  Doesn’t it? 

    I should amend it:  get vaxxed or get infected.  One or the other is going to happen.  But yes, the idea is that if you don’t have some sort of immunity you should be following the proper protocols.  Tempered of course by demographic.  If you are 81, overweight, and you smoke, COVID is not going to be good to you.  If you are 19, and in great health, different story.

    • #11
  12. Spin Coolidge
    Spin
    @Spin

    Caryn (View Comment):

    I’m going to take the hour and listen to it. If CarolJoy thinks it’s junk, it must be worth a listen.

    Yeah, her comments are nonsense.  “Believe what you wanna…”

    • #12
  13. Spin Coolidge
    Spin
    @Spin

    Sandy (View Comment):

    No messaging could ever overcome my opposition to a vaccine that has been tested for so short a period. I have other reasons for not trusting this particular vaccine, but for me, thorough testing over a period of years is a sine qua non. While I can understand that the circumstances of the pandemic might warrant offering a quickly produced product to the highly vulnerable if they wish to take it, this does not mean universal vaccination is a good idea. I am not comforted, either, by the CDC’s rushing to get out a vaccine for young children, something that I think goes against all reason, and once again rouses suspicion of the supposed guardians of public health.

     

    “Believe what you wanna…”

    • #13
  14. Stina Member
    Stina
    @CM

    Spin (View Comment):

    Sandy (View Comment):

    No messaging could ever overcome my opposition to a vaccine that has been tested for so short a period. I have other reasons for not trusting this particular vaccine, but for me, thorough testing over a period of years is a sine qua non. While I can understand that the circumstances of the pandemic might warrant offering a quickly produced product to the highly vulnerable if they wish to take it, this does not mean universal vaccination is a good idea. I am not comforted, either, by the CDC’s rushing to get out a vaccine for young children, something that I think goes against all reason, and once again rouses suspicion of the supposed guardians of public health.

     

    “Believe what you wanna…”

    Hey! Spin at his best. Since we are throwing out insults, can I join in?

    There is absolutely nothing unreasonable with waiting a period of time before jumping on a bandwagon of any new technology. And before anyone asks, yes I have a history of adopting technology slowly.

    If we want medical treatments to have less red tape around them, then you MUST be ok with people adopting medical advances as they feel comfortable.

    No need to be a jerk about it.

    • #14
  15. Sandy Member
    Sandy
    @Sandy

    Spin (View Comment):

    Caryn (View Comment):

    I’m going to take the hour and listen to it. If CarolJoy thinks it’s junk, it must be worth a listen.

    Yeah, her comments are nonsense. “Believe what you wanna…”

    What is this, a high school clique?  Not worthy of either of you. 

    • #15
  16. DonG (2+2=5. Say it!) Coolidge
    DonG (2+2=5. Say it!)
    @DonG

    This is an interesting story.

    Spectrum Health will grant temporary exemptions from its employee vaccine mandate to individuals who can prove they have naturally acquired immunity to COVID-19. 

    The west Michigan hospital system, which is in the process of merging with Southfield-based Beaumont Health, will grant an exemption to those who have a positive PCR or antigen test for COVID-19 plus a positive antibody test from within the past three months, the health system said in a statement Thursday.

    The exemption, the first for a major health system in Michigan, was developed “as new research has emerged” on natural immunity.

    “While we still recommend vaccination for people with prior COVID-19 infection, according to this new research, there is increasing evidence that natural infection affords protection from COVID-19 reinfection and severe symptoms for a period of time,” the statement said. “Current studies are not clear on how long natural immunity protects from reinfection.”

    • #16
  17. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    DonG (2+2=5. Say it!) (View Comment):

    This is an interesting story.

    Spectrum Health will grant temporary exemptions from its employee vaccine mandate to individuals who can prove they have naturally acquired immunity to COVID-19.

    The west Michigan hospital system, which is in the process of merging with Southfield-based Beaumont Health, will grant an exemption to those who have a positive PCR or antigen test for COVID-19 plus a positive antibody test from within the past three months, the health system said in a statement Thursday.

    The exemption, the first for a major health system in Michigan, was developed “as new research has emerged” on natural immunity.

    “While we still recommend vaccination for people with prior COVID-19 infection, according to this new research, there is increasing evidence that natural infection affords protection from COVID-19 reinfection and severe symptoms for a period of time,” the statement said. “Current studies are not clear on how long natural immunity protects from reinfection.”

    You had me scared for a minute that my health care system (here in southwest Michigan) is going to become part of a bigger system. But it’s not us, at least not yet.  That’s a good policy, though. I’m glad that system is not lagging in adopting it. 

    • #17
  18. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Well, that was worth watching, even though it wasn’t data-intensive like some of the other things I like to watch. It was good to get their take on the Israel study on natural immunity.  I haven’t changed my mind on mandates like Monica Gandhi says she has, but it kind of depends on which mandates and where.  I don’t oppose mandates for airline travel, except so many airlines are still being stupid about testing that it makes it hard to take seriously anything they do. 

    • #18
  19. Spin Coolidge
    Spin
    @Spin

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Well, that was worth watching, even though it wasn’t data-intensive like some of the other things I like to watch. It was good to get their take on the Israel study on natural immunity. I haven’t changed my mind on mandates like Monica Gandhi says she has, but it kind of depends on which mandates and where. I don’t oppose mandates for airline travel, except so many airlines are still being stupid about testing that it makes it hard to take seriously anything they do.

    Dr. Damania is decidedly against mandates, even if Monica is for them.  Largely because he believes, as I do, that the mandates won’t have their desired intent, and will ultimately drive folks in the opposite direction.

    The point remains, however:  immunity is the only way out.  

    I’m glad you enjoyed the video.  His videos are unlike a lot of the nonsense out there.  He gets folks on who really know what they are talking about, and haven’t got a charter membership to the foil hat club.  

    • #19
  20. Spin Coolidge
    Spin
    @Spin

    DonG (2+2=5. Say it!) (View Comment):

    This is an interesting story.

    Spectrum Health will grant temporary exemptions from its employee vaccine mandate to individuals who can prove they have naturally acquired immunity to COVID-19.

    The west Michigan hospital system, which is in the process of merging with Southfield-based Beaumont Health, will grant an exemption to those who have a positive PCR or antigen test for COVID-19 plus a positive antibody test from within the past three months, the health system said in a statement Thursday.

    The exemption, the first for a major health system in Michigan, was developed “as new research has emerged” on natural immunity.

    “While we still recommend vaccination for people with prior COVID-19 infection, according to this new research, there is increasing evidence that natural infection affords protection from COVID-19 reinfection and severe symptoms for a period of time,” the statement said. “Current studies are not clear on how long natural immunity protects from reinfection.”

    At least someone is making some dang sense…

    • #20
  21. Spin Coolidge
    Spin
    @Spin

    Sandy (View Comment):

    Spin (View Comment):

    Caryn (View Comment):

    I’m going to take the hour and listen to it. If CarolJoy thinks it’s junk, it must be worth a listen.

    Yeah, her comments are nonsense. “Believe what you wanna…”

    What is this, a high school clique? Not worthy of either of you.

    Save your moralizing.  Her comments on the video are nonsense.  

    • #21
  22. Spin Coolidge
    Spin
    @Spin

    Stina (View Comment):
    No need to be a jerk about it.

    What is it they say?  The moment you start calling names, you’ve lost the argument?  

    • #22
  23. Stina Member
    Stina
    @CM

    Spin (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):
    No need to be a jerk about it.

    What is it they say? The moment you start calling names, you’ve lost the argument?

    Just because you didn’t call anyone a moron doesn’t mean it isn’t laced in your responses to people. I’m just more honest about it. You were being a jerk and so was Caryn.

    And your quip would be more accurate if that’s all I brought to the table. Which it isn’t.

    But it is all you and Caryn brought.

    • #23
  24. Spin Coolidge
    Spin
    @Spin

    Stina (View Comment):

    Spin (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):
    No need to be a jerk about it.

    What is it they say? The moment you start calling names, you’ve lost the argument?

    Just because you didn’t call anyone a moron doesn’t mean it isn’t laced in your responses to people. I’m just more honest about it. You were being a jerk and so was Caryn.

    And your quip would be more accurate if that’s all I brought to the table. Which it isn’t.

    But it is all you and Caryn brought.

    “Believe what you wanna…”

    • #24
  25. Stina Member
    Stina
    @CM

    Spin (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    Spin (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):
    No need to be a jerk about it.

    What is it they say? The moment you start calling names, you’ve lost the argument?

    Just because you didn’t call anyone a moron doesn’t mean it isn’t laced in your responses to people. I’m just more honest about it. You were being a jerk and so was Caryn.

    And your quip would be more accurate if that’s all I brought to the table. Which it isn’t.

    But it is all you and Caryn brought.

    “Believe what you wanna…”

    I will. You never seem to rise above my expectations of you.

    • #25
  26. DrewInWisconsin, Oaf Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Oaf
    @DrewInWisconsin

    I’ve been saying since the start, the only way out is through.

    The vaccines are less efficacious than they initially promised, and heck, they’re still not entirely sure what all the risks are. (Studies on pregnant women only just beginning now?)  We must say no to all mandates and “vaccine passports” associated with COVID. Free people should never put up with it. The leaders of free people should never demand it. Lockdowns, shutdowns only harmed the economy and cost many people their jobs. They did nothing to stop the spread. Face masks are essentially useless. Even the CDC admitted they are only useful as talismans.

    The only way out is through: a critical mass gets it, acquires natural immunity, we provide good early therapeutic interventions for high risk individuals who test positive instead of the awful advice “stay home and recover — don’t come in until you can’t breath,” and we carry on.

    • #26
  27. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    DrewInWisconsin, Oaf (View Comment):

    The vaccines are less efficacious than they initially promised, and heck, they’re still not entirely sure what all the risks are.

    True. They are also more efficacious than they initially promised. It depends on which promises and which part of the immune system. 

    • #27
  28. DrewInWisconsin, Oaf Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Oaf
    @DrewInWisconsin

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Oaf (View Comment):

    The vaccines are less efficacious than they initially promised, and heck, they’re still not entirely sure what all the risks are.

    True. They are also more efficacious than they initially promised.

    Are they? Initially they weren’t talking about needing boosters every six months.

    • #28
  29. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    DrewInWisconsin, Oaf (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Oaf (View Comment):

    The vaccines are less efficacious than they initially promised, and heck, they’re still not entirely sure what all the risks are.

    True. They are also more efficacious than they initially promised.

    Are they? Initially they weren’t talking about needing boosters every six months.

    The only people I know who talk about needing boosters every six months are the wackos, and maybe the people who treat patients who don’t have completely functional B-cell and T-cell systems.  Those patients are in a bad way, already living on the edge, and maybe the only way for them to survive covid will be frequent boosters. But the vast majority of people don’t need that to maintain long-lasting T-cells and memory B-cells, which can ramp up antibody production when an infection comes.  The vaccines are doing better than expected on that front.

    People talk about a lot of things.  You name some crazy idea, and you can be sure there are people who are talking about it.   People even talk about sensible ideas. No, really! It sometimes happens. 

    • #29
  30. DrewInWisconsin, Oaf Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Oaf
    @DrewInWisconsin

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Oaf (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Oaf (View Comment):

    The vaccines are less efficacious than they initially promised, and heck, they’re still not entirely sure what all the risks are.

    True. They are also more efficacious than they initially promised.

    Are they? Initially they weren’t talking about needing boosters every six months.

    The only people I know who talk about needing boosters every six months are the wackos, . . .

    . . . who get prime spots on all the networks as “experts.”

    If you’re saying our media are all wackos, I agree. However, they’re influential wackos. 

    • #30