An Estimate of Excess COVID Deaths Resulting from Non-Vaccination

 

I’ve put together a calculation of the number of excess COVID deaths over the past month that have resulted from non-vaccination.  Obviously, this calculation is only an estimate and relies on certain assumptions.

The algebra on this is fairly easy, though I won’t bore you with the derivation (which would be difficult to display without special text features anyway).  If:

  • n = number of deaths from COVID
  • IRR = incident rate ratio for death from COVID (i.e. the ratio of the death rates among the unvaccinated and the vaccinated)
  • PV = the percentage of the population that is vaccinated

Then the number of deaths among the vaccinated (DV) is:  DV = n x PV / (PV + ((1-PV) x IRR)).

The number of deaths among the unvaccinated (DU) is:  DU = n – DV

The number of excess deaths among the unvaccinated (DE) is:  DE = DU (1 – 1/IRR)

The latest estimate that I’ve seen of the IRR is 11.3, from this CDC report.  This means that an unvaccinated person is 11.3 times more likely to die from Covid than a vaccinated person.  The CDC reports (here) that the national vaccination rate (PV) is 53.8% of the entire population, 64.9% of the population aged 18 or older, and 82.5% of the population aged 65 and over.  As I suspect that Covid deaths continue to be concentrated among older people, I used two PV figures for my estimate: 65% and 80%.  (Note that in these calculations, a higher PV figure results in a lower number for excess deaths among the unvaccinated, so these are conservative figures.)

Finally, I used Worldometer (here) as a source for Covid deaths, selecting the one-month period from August 12 to September 11.  I calculated that a total of 39,384 deaths were reported in this period.

Here are the results, which do differ depending on the vaccination rate (PV) that I assumed for the calculation.

Assuming 65% vaccination (PV=0.65):  Deaths among the vaccinated (DV) is 5,559; deaths among the unvaccinated (DU) is 33,825; excess deaths among the unvaccinated (DE) is 30,832.

Assuming 80% vaccination (PV=0.80): Deaths among the vaccinated (DV) is 10,296; deaths among the unvaccinated (DU) is 29,088; excess deaths among the unvaccinated (DE) is 26,513.

As a sensitivity analysis, I also ran the calculation for a somewhat lower death figure (38,000) and a somewhat lower vaccine effectiveness (IRR=10).  This yielded estimates of excess deaths among the unvaccinated of 24,429-28,843.  Obviously, these are estimates, so while I report the precise figures determined by my calculations (to the nearest whole number), I think that these figures should be interpreted as a reasonable range.

Based on these figures, I think that it’s reasonable to conclude that about 24,000 to 30,000 Americans died of COVID, during the month ending 9/11/2021, because they were not vaccinated.  That’s about 8-10 times the death toll from the actual 9/11.  Another way of thinking about it is that we’ve had a 9/11-worth of death every 3-4 days over the past month, due to individual decisions not to be vaccinated.

The vaccinations may have caused other problems, as there are some side effects, and there may be future side effects.

This death toll probably explains the President’s actions in mandating vaccination in a number of circumstances.  You may or may not agree with his decision as a policy matter, but I think that it is important to understand the death toll that he probably considered in making his decision.

For the record, I disagree with the President’s decision about vaccine mandates.  If people prefer to risk death from Covid rather than take a chance on vaccination, I would respect that decision.  I respect the decision of the 24,000-30,000 Americans who, by my estimate, died during the past month or so as a result of their decision not to be vaccinated.

If I were in charge, I would not require anyone to be vaccinated.  I would reopen everything including schools, put an end to all mask requirements everywhere, report the facts, and continue to offer free vaccination to any American who wants it.

Two other related points:

  • The Worldometer graphs for both cases and deaths suggest that we’re past the peak of the current wave, and things are going to get better over the next month or two.  No guarantees, but this seems to be the trend.
  • There is some evidence that the efficacy of the vaccines diminishes over time.  The CDC is now recommending a booster shot for those who received the Pfizer or Moderna vaccine, 8 months after their second shot, for people who are moderately to severely immunocompromised.  FDA approval of this recommendation is pending.  If this recommendation remains in effect, I will plan to get a booster shot myself, next January.

For those of you who are not vaccinated, I do urge you to do consider getting the shot, for the sake of your own health.  Well, with some caveats.  We don’t have a precise figure for risks and benefits, but my general sense is that you should probably get the shot if you’re over 40; that it’s a close call if you’re 25-40; and that you shouldn’t get the shot if you’re under 25.

However, each of you has to weigh the risks and benefits, and I will respect your decision.  I hope that this information proves helpful.

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  1. Lawst N. Thawt Inactive
    Lawst N. Thawt
    @LawstNThawt

    Jager (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    Taras (View Comment):

    Actually the lawsuits circumvent the free market.

    Our paternalistic government doesn’t let us choose to take a vaccine at our own risk, to opt out of future lawsuits.

    For example, the Moderna vaccine was actually available in March 2020, but unless you were part of the clinical trial, there was no way to get it — no matter how much danger you were in.

    There is no consumer protection anywhere in this chain.

    It is fascist governing. Privatized profit with Public risk and absolutely no ability to recoup damages to the individual or the public at large.

    They could be literally poisoning us and there would be nothing we can do to stop it.

    That is why conservatives obstensibly agitate for free market. If someone puts out a bad product, the market can decide not to use it.

    There is no principled position for this.

    There is an argument that we should have reformed medical litigation, but preventing consumers from seeking remedy for negative results, ESPECIALLY when they are FORCED into it, is not ethical or moral and absolutely should not be legal.

    So the Federal Government designated this as a Pandemic. The Federal Government under Trump and operation Warp Speed fast tracked the vaccines. Now the Federal Government is mandating the use of this medicine. This transfers the liability for the product from the Pharmaceutical Company to the Federal Government. This means that individuals go to the Feds for compensation. The Federal Government , like it could for most things, can go after the Pharmaceutical Company for any negligence (knowingly putting out a bad product)

    Injuries from the COVID vaccine are covered under the PREP ACT, claims are filed with the CICP program within the DHHS. The claims are evaluated and adjudicated by the Department. I believe that like any Administrative Law decision a bad result may be Appealed to Federal Court.

    https://www.hrsa.gov/cicp

    https://www.phe.gov/Preparedness/legal/prepact/Pages/default.aspx

    https://www.hrsa.gov/cicp/faq

    You can even find a listing of claims that have been filed in reaction to COVID both for potential treatments and for Vaccines.

    https://www.hrsa.gov/cicp/cicp-data#table-1

    On note there are actually more claims for injury or death on file for the Treatment of Covid than for the Vaccine.

     

    I almost posted the links to CICP and PREP Act earlier, but would not have been as thorough.  I had not found the list of claims.   I suspect we don’t see much of this in the news as it would be useful information.  

    • #91
  2. MiMac Thatcher
    MiMac
    @MiMac

    DonG (2+2=5. Say it!) (View Comment):

    How do you reconcile the data in the linked study with data out of Israel, which has better reporting, that shows the hospitalization rate for vaccinated and unvaccinated is similar? I assume the explanation is that the US does not keep good data on breakthrough infections.

    I agree that the Delta wave peaked about Aug 22. Of course any mandate now well after the horse has left the barn–typical for government.

    Good God do you not understand statistics at all? In Israel the VAST majority are vaccinated, therefore if the vaccine were ineffective, the vast majority of the hospitalized would be vaccinated, the actual stats in Israel:

    • #92
  3. MiMac Thatcher
    MiMac
    @MiMac

    Unsk (View Comment):

    Stina: What is very clear to me is that people who get Covid are sent to wait at home until respiratory distress with no treatment so that, by the time they are hospitalized, they might as well be dead.

    What I have seen anecdotally (because “science” has made all else unavailable) is that people who treated their early symptoms with ivermectin or HCQ/AZ/Zinc independently of testing clinics and hospitals (because we only have jab nurses and ventilation technicians in hospitals these days) did fine. Ivermectin did better than HCQ among my friends.

    Yep.

     

    DonG: How do you reconcile the data in the linked study with data out of Israel, which has better reporting, that shows the hospitalization rate for vaccinated and unvaccinated is similar? I assume the explanation is that the US does not keep good data on breakthrough infections. ?

    Yep. Furthermore an Israeli study has shown that people who have had COVID are 13 – yep 13 times – better protected from COVID than those who have been vaxed. But your study does not account at all for those who have already acquired immunity from COVID due to exposure, which actually is gonna be real hard, because other studies have shown that many people have already had COVID but were asymptomatic and so they did not know they had COVID. Meaning there are likely tens of millions of people here in the US that are walking around that already have immunity- so why do they need to be vaxxed with these very dangerous mRNA vaccinations?

    Actually the inventor of the mRNA vaccines, Dr. Robert Malone and the Nobel Prize winning Virologist Dr. Luc Montagnier both warned that these vaccines would not create a public benefit protecting the population but would more likely create new strains of COVID, which has happened before in other vaccines. Not only that, Dr Malone and others warned that these COVID mRNA vaccine recreates in the body a very toxic pathogen- the Spike Protein of COVID – which could cause severe problems with those taking the vaccines and there is a tendency with these vaccines for this Spike Protein to reproduce and reproduce and reproduce essentially becoming a new “super Spreader” of the deadly Spike Protein.

    So Jerry, there is absolutely no way to produce a scientific study that accurately forecasts an “excess of deaths” from the un-vaxxed and more likely there is greater public harm from these vaccines than a public good.

    MALONE DID NOT INVENT THE mRNA VACCINE! In 1989, Malone published a paper titled “Cationic liposome-mediated RNA transfection.” While this paper is an example of his important contribution to the then-emerging field, it does not make him the inventor of mRNA vaccines. IT IS TOTALLY BOGUS TO CLAIM HE INVENTED THE mRNA VACCINE 

    • #93
  4. MiMac Thatcher
    MiMac
    @MiMac

    David Carroll (View Comment):

    The data are inherently flawed. The CDC classifies folks as unvaccinated even when they had two shots, but the “case” occurred within 14 days of the second shot. So, folks who dies from the second vaccine shot get classified as unvaccinated COVID victims. Nice.

    No vaccine “kicks in” immediately- it takes time for the immune response to occur-if our immune system was as efficient as you require no one would ever die of COVID b/c our immune system would respond quick enough- but that obviously isn’t the case

    • #94
  5. MiMac Thatcher
    MiMac
    @MiMac

    Stina (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    One more point on the Israelis. It looks like the Israelis are leading the way in the booster-shot possibility. They’re administering a third shot to people, and it looks like they’re sharing their data.

    This is a good thing. I think that Israel has been punching about its weight in fighting Covid, and deserve some thanks from the rest of us, though I imagine that they’re just doing what they think best to protect their own population. Even if their approach doesn’t work out as well as hoped, we’ll all learn something from it.

    If it’s your thing, Yeay for boosters, but the current trend of mutations and boosters is looking like 4-5 boosters annually. Every iteration of a shot increases your odds of adverse reactions.

    If Dr. Robert is right that the mutations are continued biowarfare leaks, then there is a possibility of an end to boosters. But if it isn’t, and the incomplete immunity from vaccinated is spawning vaccine resistant mutations, then it could go on until a vaccine doesn’t work at all never ending.

    For a 12 year old living to the age of 80, that’s 272 shots. The closest comparison to this is the annual flu shot, which maxes out at 80 for the same individual receiving one annually his entire life.

    We do not know how many shots are needed for the vaccine to be forever effective (or at least more reasonably timed). On top of that, Pfizer’s ivermectin pill… I mean “protease inhibitor” pill to increase effectiveness of the vaccines (I’m sorry if I appear cynical here… actually, i’m not. My cynicism is well earned).

    There is a lot here screaming this vaccine is not the cure that was hoped for. The CDC has so bastardized the definition of “vaccine” that Theraflu now counts. Pfizer is developing pills that work on the same mechanism that the NIH claims ivermectin works. These are not the moves of people I should trust.

    Any piece of factual information to back up your wild claims about the Pfizer ivermectin pill? Or just more ridiculous conspiracy theories?

    • #95
  6. Spin Inactive
    Spin
    @Spin

    Lawst N. Thawt (View Comment):

    Jager (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    Taras (View Comment):

    Actually the lawsuits circumvent the free market.

    Our paternalistic government doesn’t let us choose to take a vaccine at our own risk, to opt out of future lawsuits.

    For example, the Moderna vaccine was actually available in March 2020, but unless you were part of the clinical trial, there was no way to get it — no matter how much danger you were in.

    There is no consumer protection anywhere in this chain.

    It is fascist governing. Privatized profit with Public risk and absolutely no ability to recoup damages to the individual or the public at large.

    They could be literally poisoning us and there would be nothing we can do to stop it.

    That is why conservatives obstensibly agitate for free market. If someone puts out a bad product, the market can decide not to use it.

    There is no principled position for this.

    There is an argument that we should have reformed medical litigation, but preventing consumers from seeking remedy for negative results, ESPECIALLY when they are FORCED into it, is not ethical or moral and absolutely should not be legal.

    So the Federal Government designated this as a Pandemic. The Federal Government under Trump and operation Warp Speed fast tracked the vaccines. Now the Federal Government is mandating the use of this medicine. This transfers the liability for the product from the Pharmaceutical Company to the Federal Government. This means that individuals go to the Feds for compensation. The Federal Government , like it could for most things, can go after the Pharmaceutical Company for any negligence (knowingly putting out a bad product)

    Injuries from the COVID vaccine are covered under the PREP ACT, claims are filed with the CICP program within the DHHS. The claims are evaluated and adjudicated by the Department. I believe that like any Administrative Law decision a bad result may be Appealed to Federal Court.

    https://www.hrsa.gov/cicp

    https://www.phe.gov/Preparedness/legal/prepact/Pages/default.aspx

    https://www.hrsa.gov/cicp/faq

    You can even find a listing of claims that have been filed in reaction to COVID both for potential treatments and for Vaccines.

    https://www.hrsa.gov/cicp/cicp-data#table-1

    On note there are actually more claims for injury or death on file for the Treatment of Covid than for the Vaccine.

     

    I almost posted the links to CICP and PREP Act earlier, but would not have been as thorough. I had not found the list of claims. I suspect we don’t see much of this in the news as it would be useful information.

    See, now, you learn something new every day, doncha?

    • #96
  7. Stina Member
    Stina
    @CM

    MiMac (View Comment):

    Any piece of factual information to back up your wild claims about the Pfizer ivermectin pill? Or just more ridiculous conspiracy theories?

    Right.

    You think your the only one that’s right.

    Ivermectin is a protease inhibitor:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7996102/

    Pfizer is developing a pill that is a protease inhibitor:

    https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-initiates-phase-1-study-novel-oral-antiviral

    • #97
  8. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    We see example after example, even right here on Ricochet, where students, engineers, writers, etc, seem to be better informed than actual physicians who we are somehow expected to blindly trust on matters that could be life or death.

    • #98
  9. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Roderic (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Forgive me if this is a repeat, but I asked someone: In 12 words or less, why does the government want every single person vaccinated?

    The answer was: There are too many people and they want to kill them all off.

    The way it’s working out, the “best and brightest” get vaxxed, so they live. The deplorables stew about conspiracies, don’t get vaxxed, and they die.

    And of course the efforts to convince people to get vaxxed are full of condescension, arrogance, insults, and threats. Which just makes the deplorables dig their heels in by design.

    And who else is unlikely to get vaxxed? African Americans!

    Basically, anyone who doesn’t trust the government because they’ve been screwed over by the government is more likely to die from COVID.

    It’s diabolical, I tell you.

    I agree with parts of what you say, but I thought the “best and brightest” get saline.  :)

    • #99
  10. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Taras (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Taras (View Comment):

    @ flicker — “Why would any company be exempted from liability if there was no significant potential harm?”

    Because there are significant potential lawsuits.

    If a vaccine saved a million lives but cost one, the family of the one could sue the vaccine maker into oblivion. For that matter, with greedy lawyers and credulous juries, a vaccine maker could be destroyed even if its vaccine cost no lives.

    If this were a valid and true rationale, wouldn’t this have always been the case? Wouldn’t pharmaceutical companies need complete liability protection in the future? Wouldn’t all companies justly deserve liability protection? Haven’t other non-pharmaceutical companies already had to close because of unjust law suits?

    In olden times, we were less litigious than we are now. Partly, I think, because judges were likelier to exert their authority to throw out frivolous lawsuits and sanction the lawyers who brought them.

    The threat of lawsuits means that drugs that promise to be only marginally profitable are simply not developed any more. The profit margin has to be big enough to cover potential lawsuits and idiot jury awards.

    In the case of vaccines specifically, lawsuits threatened to end all vaccine development in the United States. This was finally enough to get Congress to act.

    So then all vaccines will get liability wavers?  Or just the minimally-tested ones.

    • #100
  11. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    I know I got full strength death juice when I got my shots.  No saline for me.  Pfizer 1 and 2 were on Thursdays.  Both of the took me out Fri, Sat, Sun.

    They say most people get hit by the second one — both got me, but the second was worse.

    If I start growling a tail or developing the ability to see across time and space, I’ll let you know.

    Lesson learned?  Got your shots on a Monday.

    • #101
  12. Taras Coolidge
    Taras
    @Taras

    BDB (View Comment):

    I know I got full strength death juice when I got my shots. No saline for me. Pfizer 1 and 2 were on Thursdays. Both of the took me out Fri, Sat, Sun.

    They say most people get hit by the second one — both got me, but the second was worse.

    If I start growling a tail or developing the ability to see across time and space, I’ll let you know.

    Lesson learned? Got your shots on a Monday.

    My left shoulder was sore for two days with the first Moderna shot; then my right shoulder was sore for one day with the second shot.

    My sister-in-law told me she had no symptoms at all. “Well, they have to give the placebo to somebody,” I said.

    • #102
  13. Taras Coolidge
    Taras
    @Taras

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Taras (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Taras (View Comment):

    @ flicker — “Why would any company be exempted from liability if there was no significant potential harm?”

    Because there are significant potential lawsuits.

    If a vaccine saved a million lives but cost one, the family of the one could sue the vaccine maker into oblivion. For that matter, with greedy lawyers and credulous juries, a vaccine maker could be destroyed even if its vaccine cost no lives.

    If this were a valid and true rationale, wouldn’t this have always been the case? Wouldn’t pharmaceutical companies need complete liability protection in the future? Wouldn’t all companies justly deserve liability protection? Haven’t other non-pharmaceutical companies already had to close because of unjust law suits?

    In olden times, we were less litigious than we are now. Partly, I think, because judges were likelier to exert their authority to throw out frivolous lawsuits and sanction the lawyers who brought them.

    The threat of lawsuits means that drugs that promise to be only marginally profitable are simply not developed any more. The profit margin has to be big enough to cover potential lawsuits and idiot jury awards.

    In the case of vaccines specifically, lawsuits threatened to end all vaccine development in the United States. This was finally enough to get Congress to act.

    So then all vaccines will get liability wavers? Or just the minimally-tested ones.

    According to 42 U.S. Code § 300aa–22, “No vaccine manufacturer shall be liable in a civil action for damages arising from a vaccine-related injury or death associated with the administration of a vaccine after October 1, 1988, if the injury or death resulted from side effects that were unavoidable even though the vaccine was properly prepared and was accompanied by proper directions and warnings.” https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-are-pharmaceutical-companies-immune-covid-19-vaccine-lawsuits-1562793

     

    • #103
  14. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Taras (View Comment):

    So then all vaccines will get liability wavers? Or just the minimally-tested ones.

    According to 42 U.S. Code § 300aa–22, “No vaccine manufacturer shall be liable in a civil action for damages arising from a vaccine-related injury or death associated with the administration of a vaccine after October 1, 1988, if the injury or death resulted from side effects that were unavoidable even though the vaccine was properly prepared and was accompanied by proper directions and warnings.” https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-are-pharmaceutical-companies-immune-covid-19-vaccine-lawsuits-1562793

    I guess so.

    • #104
  15. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Taras (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Taras (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Taras (View Comment):

    @ flicker — “Why would any company be exempted from liability if there was no significant potential harm?”

    Because there are significant potential lawsuits.

    If a vaccine saved a million lives but cost one, the family of the one could sue the vaccine maker into oblivion. For that matter, with greedy lawyers and credulous juries, a vaccine maker could be destroyed even if its vaccine cost no lives.

    If this were a valid and true rationale, wouldn’t this have always been the case? Wouldn’t pharmaceutical companies need complete liability protection in the future? Wouldn’t all companies justly deserve liability protection? Haven’t other non-pharmaceutical companies already had to close because of unjust law suits?

    In olden times, we were less litigious than we are now. Partly, I think, because judges were likelier to exert their authority to throw out frivolous lawsuits and sanction the lawyers who brought them.

    The threat of lawsuits means that drugs that promise to be only marginally profitable are simply not developed any more. The profit margin has to be big enough to cover potential lawsuits and idiot jury awards.

    In the case of vaccines specifically, lawsuits threatened to end all vaccine development in the United States. This was finally enough to get Congress to act.

    So then all vaccines will get liability wavers? Or just the minimally-tested ones.

    According to 42 U.S. Code § 300aa–22, “No vaccine manufacturer shall be liable in a civil action for damages arising from a vaccine-related injury or death associated with the administration of a vaccine after October 1, 1988, if the injury or death resulted from side effects that were unavoidable even though the vaccine was properly prepared and was accompanied by proper directions and warnings.” https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-are-pharmaceutical-companies-immune-covid-19-vaccine-lawsuits-1562793

     

    Hmmm, what if the instructions said not to give it to the person who was injured or died because of some other issue they have, but the dr or pharmacist just didn’t read the directions/warnings or ignored them or didn’t care?  Does that make it “avoidable?”  Or is that still “unavoidable?”  might be separate court cases about THAT…

    • #105
  16. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    kedavis (View Comment):
    Does that make it “avoidable?”

    I’d argue that it does.  The liability falls on the pharmacist, not the pharmaceutical company.

     

    • #106
  17. MiMac Thatcher
    MiMac
    @MiMac

    Stina (View Comment):

    MiMac (View Comment):

    Any piece of factual information to back up your wild claims about the Pfizer ivermectin pill? Or just more ridiculous conspiracy theories?

    Right.

    You think your the only one that’s right.

    Ivermectin is a protease inhibitor:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7996102/

    Pfizer is developing a pill that is a protease inhibitor:

    https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-initiates-phase-1-study-novel-oral-antiviral

    Ivermectin is not a protease inhibitor-it may have such effects but that isn’t its predominant mechanism of action-nor current clinical use. Furthermore, if it’s efficacy is similar to HCQ and Remdesivir than you would think it will not prove to be very effective- as they have been disappointing to date. An important consideration is the dose required to achieve the effects of viral inhibition-If you read the article you have linked you will the authors state that “The study depicts that a low dose of ivermectin (5 micromolar) can induce 93% reduction in viral RNA from released virion and 99.8% reduction in cell-associated/unreleased virion after 24 h of incubation”. However, that level of ivermectin is in fact NOT LOW DOSE-as others have noted-“An important controversial point to consider in any rationale is the 5 µM required concentration to reach the anti-SARS-CoV-2 action of ivermectin observed in vitro,17 which is much higher than 0.28 µM, the maximum reported plasma concentration achieved in vivo with a dose of approximately 1700 µg/kg (about nine times the FDA-approved dosification).24 25 In this sense, basic fundamentals for assessing ivermectin in COVID-19 at a clinical level appear to be insufficient”(https://ebm.bmj.com/content/early/2021/05/26/bmjebm-2021-111678)

    as many have pointed out – the doses required are far beyond the typical clinical doses achieved in humans- if you give 9x the typical human dose you will only have about 1/18th of the level of ivermectin used in the lab experiment you have cited.

    the Pfizer drug is a true protease inhibitor-in terms of that is its principle mechanism of action by design-to claim Pfizer is making an ivermectin pill is misleading.

    • #107
  18. MiMac Thatcher
    MiMac
    @MiMac

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Taras (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Taras (View Comment):

    @ flicker — “Why would any company be exempted from liability if there was no significant potential harm?”

    Because there are significant potential lawsuits.

    If a vaccine saved a million lives but cost one, the family of the one could sue the vaccine maker into oblivion. For that matter, with greedy lawyers and credulous juries, a vaccine maker could be destroyed even if its vaccine cost no lives.

    If this were a valid and true rationale, wouldn’t this have always been the case? Wouldn’t pharmaceutical companies need complete liability protection in the future? Wouldn’t all companies justly deserve liability protection? Haven’t other non-pharmaceutical companies already had to close because of unjust law suits?

    In olden times, we were less litigious than we are now. Partly, I think, because judges were likelier to exert their authority to throw out frivolous lawsuits and sanction the lawyers who brought them.

    The threat of lawsuits means that drugs that promise to be only marginally profitable are simply not developed any more. The profit margin has to be big enough to cover potential lawsuits and idiot jury awards.

    In the case of vaccines specifically, lawsuits threatened to end all vaccine development in the United States. This was finally enough to get Congress to act.

    So then all vaccines will get liability wavers? Or just the minimally-tested ones.

    All vaccines- the law was signed by Ronald Reagan 

    • #108
  19. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Taras (View Comment):
    In olden times, we were less litigious than we are now.

    Not according to Susan Gray’s book about the early settlers in my part of Michigan.

    • #109
  20. Stina Member
    Stina
    @CM

    MiMac (View Comment):
    Ivermectin is not a protease inhibitor-it may have such effects but that isn’t its predominant mechanism of action-nor current clinical use.

    Then what does this mean? 

    Ivermectin was found as a blocker of viral replicase, protease and human TMPRSS2, which could be the biophysical basis behind its antiviral efficiency.

     

    • #110
  21. Stina Member
    Stina
    @CM

    According to webmd, a protease inhibitor “blocks proteases in the body”, so Ivermecting “blocking proteases” makes it a “protease inhibitor”.

    It doesn’t matter if we use it that way in the US or not. It has the mechanism to be used that way.

    • #111
  22. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    kedavis (View Comment):

    We see example after example, even right here on Ricochet, where students, engineers, writers, etc, seem to be better informed than actual physicians who we are somehow expected to blindly trust on matters that could be life or death.

    No, they don’t seem to be that.

    • #112
  23. MiMac Thatcher
    MiMac
    @MiMac

    Stina (View Comment):

    According to webmd, a protease inhibitor “blocks proteases in the body”, so Ivermecting “blocking proteases” makes it a “protease inhibitor”.

    It doesn’t matter if we use it that way in the US or not. It has the mechanism to be used that way.

    Bricks or wrenches can be used as hammers but that doesn’t make them a hammer

    • #113
  24. Stina Member
    Stina
    @CM

    MiMac (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    According to webmd, a protease inhibitor “blocks proteases in the body”, so Ivermecting “blocking proteases” makes it a “protease inhibitor”.

    It doesn’t matter if we use it that way in the US or not. It has the mechanism to be used that way.

    Bricks or wrenches can be used as hammers but that doesn’t make them a hammer

    Wow. This isn’t logical. I’m not talking about a hammer or a screwdriver. I’m talking about a Swiss Army knife that has a corkscrew, and Phillips head, a flat head, and a knife all packaged together. Multiple uses for different problems.

    • #114
  25. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    MiMac (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    According to webmd, a protease inhibitor “blocks proteases in the body”, so Ivermecting “blocking proteases” makes it a “protease inhibitor”.

    It doesn’t matter if we use it that way in the US or not. It has the mechanism to be used that way.

    Bricks or wrenches can be used as hammers but that doesn’t make them a hammer

    Ok, so the drug isn’t a protease inhibitor, but a chemical in it is. And Pfizer is making a new pill that includes a protease inhibitor–not, to my knowledge, the same one.

    Setting aside for the moment what we are to make of the facts, are those not the facts?

    • #115
  26. MiMac Thatcher
    MiMac
    @MiMac

    Stina (View Comment):

    MiMac (View Comment):
    Ivermectin is not a protease inhibitor-it may have such effects but that isn’t its predominant mechanism of action-nor current clinical use.

    Then what does this mean?

    Ivermectin was found as a blocker of viral replicase, protease and human TMPRSS2, which could be the biophysical basis behind its antiviral efficiency.

     

    Read the doses in the article- if a drug effect requires a dose far beyond that achievable in a human than the drug doesn’t work in any meaningful sense. At such doses the detrimental side effects will predominant over any hoped for beneficial effect. 100 mg IV  lidocaine has anti-arrhythmic effects- 1 GM has a lethal effect- yet people do not go around typically saying that lidocaine is lethal. Ivermectin at clinical doses is an effective agent against parasites- it remains to be seen if it is an effective drug against COVID at clinically achievable blood levels- an in vitro experiment with 100x the typical blood level isn’t a very good indicator that it will be useful.

    • #116
  27. Stina Member
    Stina
    @CM

    When I was a young teen, I had severe issues with a routine problem. Pharma companies made medications specifically for this issue but they never worked for me.

    what did work was ONLY Tylenol pm. It’s primary purpose was to help people sleep through pain. But it was a muscle relaxant that was easily accessible to me, so I used it. And it worked. Just because a medication has a specific use doesn’t mean it lacks properties that can being used in other ways.

    • #117
  28. Stina Member
    Stina
    @CM

    MiMac (View Comment):
    Read the doses in the article- if a drug effect requires a dose far beyond that achievable in a human than the drug doesn’t work in any meaningful sense.

    You fail to answer my question in a straightforward manner and are making baseless claims based on studies no one has conducted.

    I have demonstrated why studies should be done. People who have looked closer at the Pfizer drug literature said they changed it enough from ivermectin to get it it’s own patent. Which is, again, convenient.

    But the way you are throwing up articles of your own to combat points i wasn’t making leads me to think you didn’t read what I posted and that you actually didn’t expect me to have sources.

    • #118
  29. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Stina (View Comment):
    People who have looked closer at the Pfizer drug literature said they changed it enough from ivermectin to get it it’s own patent. Which is, again, convenient.

    But is its protease inhibitor the same chemical as in ivermectin?

    • #119
  30. Stina Member
    Stina
    @CM

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):
    People who have looked closer at the Pfizer drug literature said they changed it enough from ivermectin to get it it’s own patent. Which is, again, convenient.

    But is its protease inhibitor the same chemical as in ivermectin?

    I do not know. I don’t think I have enough skill to a) find out the chemical make up of either or b) to decipher a chemical chart to figure out fine differences.

    I mean, I read chemical charts on my prescriptions, but I missed my calling for chemistry.

    • #120
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