Quote of the Day: Chesterton’s Virtue Challenge

 

“Charity means pardoning the unpardonable, or it’s no virtue at all. Hope means hoping when things are hopeless, or it’s no virtue at all. And faith means believing the incredible, or it’s no virtue at all.” — G.K. Chesterton

When Catholics pray the Rosary, it’s common practice to begin by praying for an increase of the theological virtues — faith, hope, and charity — before entering into the mysteries of Christ’s life while praying the decades. Even though I follow this practice, I find Catholic-convert Gilbert Keith Chesterton’s challenge a hard saying, especially in our nation’s current moment.

I’ve never been a fan of either secondhand forgiveness or blanket condemnation. It’s why I don’t subscribe to forgiveness of cold-blooded murder. Crimes of fear or passion, maybe. But, not heinous murder. The only people with standing to forgive a heinous murderer are dead.

And, yes, I know of the supposed therapeutic benefits of forgiving a loved one’s murderer. I guess I’m not impressed enough on moral grounds to pursue the psychological benefits.

Which brings me back to our current catastrophe. Who has the moral standing to forgive Joe Biden and his cowardly, inept, corrupt administration for the Afghanistan surrender? Not I. The dead Marines and the many others who died in the suicide bombing would have standing, but they’re dead and aren’t here to convey their forgiveness even if they were so inclined.

Personally, I consider this act of hubris and betrayal on the part of Biden and his lackeys unpardonable. And yet. . .

Virtue demands that we overcome our natural inclinations for the higher good. Christians know the radical, self-sacrificing love of Christ is transformative. It’s literally how the world is saved. Christians also know we’re called to take up our crosses and follow in Jesus’ footsteps. Most of us have had occasion to carry a cross or two by now. I have. But, this forgiveness thing may be the heaviest cross of all — which, of course, is why Jesus carries it for us.

There’s a lot of chatter about civil war in the current climate, and men, particularly, seem inclined to take up arms. I’m a great admirer of male nature. Civilization has never advanced except through the intelligence, aggression, and competitiveness of men. And the division of labor conscientiously played out in healthy families has men as protectors and providers. And yet. . .

After Mass a couple of weeks ago, we were invited to stay and pray the Rosary, interceding for the situation in Afghanistan and our own country. There were more men in attendance than women — unlike the spiritually hollowed-out cathedrals of Europe with their magnificent exteriors and only a scattering of old women inside. Many of these men are veterans and many of them wore their vests indicating their membership in that “radical” charity group, the Knights of Columbus. We were all down on our knees praying for the dead, for members of the military, for wisdom in our government (I know), and even for the conversion of the Taliban — that they would know the love of Christ and be transfigured by it.

As you can tell, I haven’t resolved my stance on Chesterton’s challenge, although, in my heart, I sense that he’s right. Better to take up our rosaries (or whatever your preferred form of prayer) and pray for an increase in the theological virtues than to take up arms.

God bless our troops and veterans. And God grant us all the grace to live virtuous lives.

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  1. Nohaaj Coolidge
    Nohaaj
    @Nohaaj

    Western Chauvinist: I know of the supposed therapeutic benefits of forgiving a loved-ones murderer. I guess I’m not impressed enough on moral grounds to pursue the psychological benefits. 

    Forgiveness is not the same as forgetting. We may forgive the murderer, perhaps even presume he must be insane or deranged, or something, to allow ourselves to forgive. But that does not mean we let the murderer act again. You can forgive and must act to protect yourself, family, country from that murderer acting again. You can not forget what the murderer has already done, and recognize that he is willing, capable, and likely to repeat his actions if you allow it. 

    Forgiveness allows you to release the anger created by the pain the murderer caused, this is critical so that the anger does not build into hatred. 

    • #1
  2. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Nohaaj (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist: I know of the supposed therapeutic benefits of forgiving a loved-ones murderer. I guess I’m not impressed enough on moral grounds to pursue the psychological benefits.

    Forgiveness is not the same as forgetting. We may forgive the murderer, perhaps even presume he must be insane or deranged, or something, to allow ourselves to forgive. But that does not mean we let the murderer act again. You can forgive and must act to protect yourself, family, country from that murderer acting again. You can not forget what the murderer has already done, and recognize that he is willing, capable, and likely to repeat his actions if you allow it.

    Forgiveness allows you to release the anger created by the pain the murderer caused, this is critical so that the anger does not build into hatred.

    Yeah, thank God I haven’t been tested in this way, because I’m not sure I’d pass. 

    • #2
  3. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Nohaaj (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist: I know of the supposed therapeutic benefits of forgiving a loved-ones murderer. I guess I’m not impressed enough on moral grounds to pursue the psychological benefits.

    Forgiveness is not the same as forgetting. We may forgive the murderer, perhaps even presume he must be insane or deranged, or something, to allow ourselves to forgive. But that does not mean we let the murderer act again. You can forgive and must act to protect yourself, family, country from that murderer acting again. You can not forget what the murderer has already done, and recognize that he is willing, capable, and likely to repeat his actions if you allow it.

    Forgiveness allows you to release the anger created by the pain the murderer caused, this is critical so that the anger does not build into hatred.

    And, actually Nohaaj, I think there is an element of forgetting in true forgiveness. If it’s a lesser sin against you — say a friend has gossiped about you — true forgiveness means you’ve wiped the slate clean. You’re not going to hold onto the memory of that infraction, which could damage your friendship going forward. There’s even a theological line of thinking that says God “forgets” sin.

    • #3
  4. Franco Member
    Franco
    @Franco

    Western Chauvinist:

    Charity means pardoning the unpardonable, or it’s no virtue at all. Hope means hoping when things are hopeless, or it’s no virtue at all. And faith means believing the incredible, or it’s no virtue at all.

    — G.K. Chesterton

    Reading that quote annoyed me. I know Chesterton as a wise man, but this sounds like an empty slogan. It assumes the writer is an authority on virtue as well as an authority on how charity, hope and faith must be applied.

    One could by this assertion, allow it and conclude, well then, hope, faith and charity aren’t virtues. Next?

    On top of that, it’s rhetorically self-defeating. If something is unpardonable, then it by definition can’t or shouldn’t be pardoned, and likewise for the other sentences.

    Western Chauvinist:

    Which brings me back to our current catastrophe. Who has the moral standing to forgive Joe Biden and his cowardly, inept, corrupt administration for the Afghanistan surrender? Not I. The dead Marines and the many others who died in the suicide bombing would have standing, but they’re dead and aren’t here to convey their forgiveness even if they were so inclined.

    Personally, I consider this act of hubris and betrayal on the part of Biden and his lackeys unpardonable. And yet. . .

    And it’s my understanding that forgiveness or a pardon can’t occur unless it’s sought by the perpetrator of the act. 

    • #4
  5. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Franco (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist:

    Charity means pardoning the unpardonable, or it’s no virtue at all. Hope means hoping when things are hopeless, or it’s no virtue at all. And faith means believing the incredible, or it’s no virtue at all.

    — G.K. Chesterton

    Reading that quote annoyed me. I know Chesterton as a wise man, but this sounds like an empty slogan. It assumes the writer is an authority on virtue as well as an authority on how charity, hope and faith must be applied.

    One could by this assertion, allow it and conclude, well then, hope, faith and charity aren’t virtues. Next?

    On top of that, it’s rhetorically self-defeating. If something is unpardonable, then it by definition can’t or shouldn’t be pardoned, and likewise for the other sentences.

    Well, Chesterton is renown for promoting the paradoxes of the faith. This could be seen in that light, too.

    Western Chauvinist:

    Which brings me back to our current catastrophe. Who has the moral standing to forgive Joe Biden and his cowardly, inept, corrupt administration for the Afghanistan surrender? Not I. The dead Marines and the many others who died in the suicide bombing would have standing, but they’re dead and aren’t here to convey their forgiveness even if they were so inclined.

    Personally, I consider this act of hubris and betrayal on the part of Biden and his lackeys unpardonable. And yet. . .

    And it’s my understanding that forgiveness or a pardon can’t occur unless it’s sought by the perpetrator of the act.

    Yes, that’s what annoys me when surviving families “forgive” heinous murderers when they haven’t even repented!!

    • #5
  6. Ed G. Member
    Ed G.
    @EdG

    My understanding both intellectually and viscerally is that true contrition is a necessary condition to receive God’s forgiveness and grace. That makes sense.

    I think Chesterton’s point is in light of the fact that most of the time the danger is a hardened heart unwilling to forget and forgive even when it’s warranted. I dont think he was speaking there to the opposite problem of the bleeding heart oozing false and empty virtue. 

    • #6
  7. Lawst N. Thawt Inactive
    Lawst N. Thawt
    @LawstNThawt

    Charity is one of those words that used to mean a little more than it does these days.  Some translations of the text on “faith, hope & charity” replace “charity” with “love” which is probably closer to the meaning, for our day, of what Paul was thinking.  Chesterton’s reading and understanding of charity would have been something like “Christian love of one’s fellows”.  A modern rendition might be “love of humankind”.  

    This probably doesn’t help toward a resolution, as loving the unlovable of humankind is possibly a harder thing to do than pardoning the unpardonable. Except, it’s love.  It’s a giving love and it’s the answer to all that ails anyone, anywhere at any time.  So, what if everybody loved all of humankind?

    • #7
  8. GLDIII Purveyor of Splendid Malpropisms Reagan
    GLDIII Purveyor of Splendid Malpropisms
    @GLDIII

    Western Chauvinist: many of them wore their vests indicating their membership in that “radical” charity group, the Knights of Columbus.

    So I have been part of a “radical”charity group for close to 20 years? I wonder when they were going to tell us that performing charitable community acts, and various fund raising activities for those who are less fortunate could be so radial?

    • #8
  9. Henry Castaigne Member
    Henry Castaigne
    @HenryCastaigne

    These are the times that try men’s souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands by it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value.

    –Thomas Paine

    • #9
  10. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    If we have no idea how else to love our enemies, pray for G-d to help them repent. That may begin to solve the problem of their being enemies, and will surely begin to solve the problem of our difficulty in loving them.

    • #10
  11. Aaron Miller Inactive
    Aaron Miller
    @AaronMiller

    Western Chauvinist: Civilization has never advanced except through the intelligence, aggression, and competitiveness of men. And the division of labor conscientiously played out in healthy families has men as protectors and providers.

    My scriptural rosary readings include reference in Luke 26 to the crowd of women “who mourned and lamented” Jesus as He carried His cross. Again and again, such as Mary at Golgotha and the three women at Christ’s tomb, we witness the steadfast accompaniment of women after men have lost hope. I pray that our men do not lose courage and that our women do not lose the heavenly gaze of hope that inspires men to return. 

    • #11
  12. dukenaltum Inactive
    dukenaltum
    @dukenaltum

    I seldom experience the inclination or desire to forgive people for their crimes and sins against others.  Tangential forgiveness for sins against another person or group unrelated to you or in the past is posturing to appear virtuous. 

    Chesterton is right but we should limit of application of forgiveness to people who have harmed us personally and commend all others to the justice and potential mercy of God.   

    Saint Thomas More said it better.  

    “Bear no malice or evil will to any man living. For either the man is good or wicked. If he is good and I hate him, then I am wicked.

    If he is wicked, either he will amend and die good and go to God or live wickedly and die wickedly and go to the devil. And then let me remember that if he be saved, he will not fail (if I am saved too, as I trust to be) to love me very heartily and I shall then in like manner love him.

    And why should I now, then, hate one for this while who shall hereafter love me forever, and why should I be now, then, an enemy with whom I shall in time be coupled in eternal friendship? And on the other side, if he will continue to be wicked and be damned, then is there such outrageous eternal sorrow before him that I may well think myself a deadly cruel wretch if I would not now rather pity his pain then malign his person.”

     

    • #12
  13. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Thanks for the comments everyone. More food for thought.

    • #13
  14. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Lawst N. Thawt (View Comment):

    Charity is one of those words that used to mean a little more than it does these days. Some translations of the text on “faith, hope & charity” replace “charity” with “love” which is probably closer to the meaning, for our day, of what Paul was thinking. Chesterton’s reading and understanding of charity would have been something like “Christian love of one’s fellows”. A modern rendition might be “love of humankind”.

    This probably doesn’t help toward a resolution, as loving the unlovable of humankind is possibly a harder thing to do than pardoning the unpardonable. Except, it’s love. It’s a giving love and it’s the answer to all that ails anyone, anywhere at any time. So, what if everybody loved all of humankind?

    We also have to define our terms. What do we mean by “love?” Love is willing the good of the other, as other, even when it costs us. Especially when it costs us. That takes some of the edge off of the challenge of “loving the unlovable.” Moderns tend to think of love as a sentiment — a feeling of affection. Christians know it is an act of the will. 

    As to loving humankind, I like what Dennis Prager has to say about the Left: The Left loves mankind, it’s people they hate.

    I’m in the opposite camp (or I try to be). I try to subscribe to St. Teresa of Calcutta’s admonition regarding charity — “Do what’s in front of you.” Love the unlovable person in your orbit. Mankind in its fallenness is wicked and detestable (cf Taliban). Praying for the conversion of all mankind (especially the Taliban) is as close as I can come to loving all of humankind.

    • #14
  15. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    GLDIII Purveyor of Splendid Ma… (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist: many of them wore their vests indicating their membership in that “radical” charity group, the Knights of Columbus.

    So I have been part of a “radical”charity group for close to 20 years? I wonder when they were going to tell us that performing charitable community acts, and various fund raising activities for those who are less fortunate could be so radial?

    When Kamala Harris calls you “radical,” you can take it as a compliment, such is her foolishness.

    • #15
  16. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    These are the times that try men’s souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands by it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value.

    –Thomas Paine

    Yes, he may have been referring to making war, but I think it works equally well for Chesterton’s challenge. Virtue is hard.

    • #16
  17. I Walton Member
    I Walton
    @IWalton

    By all means forgive Biden, but after he’s fired and prosecuted for the illegal funds from China that  induce him to pursue China’s interests.

    • #17
  18. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    If we have no idea how else to love our enemies, pray for G-d to help them repent. That may begin to solve the problem of their being enemies, and will surely begin to solve the problem of our difficulty in loving them.

    Aaron Miller (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist: Civilization has never advanced except through the intelligence, aggression, and competitiveness of men. And the division of labor conscientiously played out in healthy families has men as protectors and providers.

    My scriptural rosary readings include reference in Luke 26 to the crowd of women “who mourned and lamented” Jesus as He carried His cross. Again and again, such as Mary at Golgotha and the three women at Christ’s tomb, we witness the steadfast accompaniment of women after men have lost hope. I pray that our men do not lose courage and that our women do not lose the heavenly gaze of hope that inspires men to return.

    Yes, excellent.

    • #18
  19. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    dukenaltum (View Comment):
    I seldom experience the inclination or desire to forgive people for their crimes and sins against others.  Tangential forgiveness for sins against another person or group unrelated to you or in the past is posturing to appear virtuous. 

    This is what I meant by “secondhand forgiveness.” 

    • #19
  20. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    I Walton (View Comment):

    By all means forgive Biden, but after he’s fired and prosecuted for the illegal funds from China that induce him to pursue China’s interests.

    There ya’ go. Forgiveness doesn’t mean withholding consequences (temporal punishment for sin). Consequences have a way of bringing sinners around. . . 

    • #20
  21. dukenaltum Inactive
    dukenaltum
    @dukenaltum

    Yes, that’s what annoys me when surviving families “forgive” heinous murderers when they haven’t even repented!!

    We shouldn’t even be concerned with their repentance, and I might be wrong but while it might be comforting for some to forgive the “heinous” crimes done to a member of your family or friends, it really does nothing to eliminate the need for justice to the victim, to society and to Almighty God being served.  

    Punishment even Capital Punishment is exacting a price and referring final judgement to a higher court. 

     

    • #21
  22. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    dukenaltum (View Comment):

    Yes, that’s what annoys me when surviving families “forgive” heinous murderers when they haven’t even repented!!

    We shouldn’t even be concerned with their repentance, and I might be wrong but while it might be comforting for some to forgive the “heinous” crimes done to a member of your family or friends, it really does nothing to eliminate the need for justice to the victim, to society and to Almighty God being served.

    Punishment even Capital Punishment is exacting a price and referring final judgement to a higher court.

    Yes, and capital punishment — facing imminent death — has a way of focusing the mind, making true repentance more likely.

    I always like that saying in the old westerns: We’re sending you to meet your Maker, and may God have mercy on your soul. Call it “true love.” /only a little snarkily

    • #22
  23. Aaron Miller Inactive
    Aaron Miller
    @AaronMiller

    dukenaltum (View Comment):

    Yes, that’s what annoys me when surviving families “forgive” heinous murderers when they haven’t even repented!!

    “Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do.” Jesus seems to offer an example of preceding repentance with forgiveness. But truth and repentance are necessary for that forgiveness to be accepted.

    Death penalties have always been permissible under Christian teaching. Hope for repentance before death, though not in lieu of death, is just. “Love your enemies” means hope for enemies, but not pretending we have no enemies or no need of harsh consequences.

    • #23
  24. Ansonia Member
    Ansonia
    @Ansonia

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Nohaaj (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist: I know of the supposed therapeutic benefits of forgiving a loved-ones murderer. I guess I’m not impressed enough on moral grounds to pursue the psychological benefits.

    Forgiveness is not the same as forgetting. We may forgive the murderer, perhaps even presume he must be insane or deranged, or something, to allow ourselves to forgive. But that does not mean we let the murderer act again. You can forgive and must act to protect yourself, family, country from that murderer acting again. You can not forget what the murderer has already done, and recognize that he is willing, capable, and likely to repeat his actions if you allow it.

    Forgiveness allows you to release the anger created by the pain the murderer caused, this is critical so that the anger does not build into hatred.

    And, actually Nohaaj, I think there is an element of forgetting in true forgiveness. If it’s a lesser sin against you — say a friend has gossiped about you — true forgiveness means you’ve wiped the slate clean. You’re not going to hold onto the memory of that infraction, which could damage your friendship going forward. There’s even a theological line of thinking that says God “forgets” sin.

    So you forgive the friend. Do you also, in the future, trust the friend with information about yourself that you don’t want getting around ? Maybe the best way to do “God ‘forgets’ sin” is to demote the friend back to the I-don’t-know-him-well-enough position and see who he seems to be going forward. In other words, don’t just forget his offense, forget also the trustworthiness you once assumed about him while, at the same time, not assuming the opposite.

    • #24
  25. She Member
    She
    @She

    Western Chauvinist: God bless our troops and veterans. And God grant us all the grace to live virtuous lives.

    Amen.

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    • #25
  26. She Member
    She
    @She

    Western Chauvinist: And, yes, I know of the supposed therapeutic benefits of forgiving a loved one’s murderer. I guess I’m not impressed enough on moral grounds to pursue the psychological benefits.

    I have faced this dilemma.  I wrote about it here, and found C.S. Lewis of great help and comfort in sorting out my thoughts at the time.  A couple of years on, I’m still not there, and not particularly worried about it.  The best I can do, seems to be a certain numbness, an indifference to their fate and (I’m glad to say) no bitter canker in my heart, or jumbled and disturbing thoughts of vengeance and retribution.  I will be extraordinarily surprised if either of them repents of their actions (with any sincerity, anyway).

    I don’t regard (and neither did Lewis) “the long arm of the law” and its consequences as vengeance or retribution.  I regard them as just punishments, agreed upon by society, for transgressions committed against that society. Seeing people punished doesn’t fill me with joy, but it does make me think that justice has been served.  So when one of these individuals was sentenced to 5-10 years, and the other to 20-40, that’s how I felt–that society had spoken, and some measure of justice had been done.

    I think that fact has made it easier for me to move along, if not completely on.  I imagine, if the case had been thrown out, if these two had skated, if they’d received a slap on the wrist, that it would have been much harder to overcome a sense of futility, anger, bitterness, and perhaps even hatred, and much harder to find joy in life.  It’s difficult to get past such circumstances, even with a supportive network of family, law-enforcement, and the judicial process, and I completely understand that, for some people, it’s next to impossible.

     

    • #26
  27. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    She (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist: And, yes, I know of the supposed therapeutic benefits of forgiving a loved one’s murderer. I guess I’m not impressed enough on moral grounds to pursue the psychological benefits.

    I have faced this dilemma. I wrote about it here, and found C.S. Lewis of great help and comfort in sorting out my thoughts at the time. A couple of years on, I’m still not there, and not particularly worried about it. The best I can do, seems to be a certain numbness, an indifference to their fate and (I’m glad to say) no bitter canker in my heart, or jumbled and disturbing thoughts of vengeance and retribution. I will be extraordinarily surprised if either of them repents of their actions (with any sincerity, anyway).

    I don’t regard (and neither did Lewis) “the long arm of the law” and its consequences as vengeance or retribution. I regard them as just punishments, agreed upon by society, for transgressions committed against that society. Seeing people punished doesn’t fill me with joy, but it does make me think that justice has been served. So when one of these individuals was sentenced to 5-10 years, and the other to 20-40, that’s how I felt–that society had spoken, and some measure of justice had been done.

    I think that fact has made it easier for me to move along, if not completely on. I imagine, if the case had been thrown out, if these two had skated, if they’d received a slap on the wrist, that it would have been much harder to overcome a sense of futility, anger, bitterness, and perhaps even hatred, and much harder to find joy in life. It’s difficult to get past such circumstances, even with a supportive network of family, law-enforcement, and the judicial process, and I completely understand that, for some people, it’s next to impossible.

     

    So sorry She. That’s a heavy cross, but you seem to be carrying it with grace.

    • #27
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