Holding Up a Mirror to my Students, And Myself

 

My practice at the end of my first class of the semester is to see if students want to ask me any questions. A young woman asked me, after my answering the question about alma maters and degrees, including my ThM in Old Testament, “So, did you ever think about becoming a pastor?” It was refreshing to hear such a forthright question, to which I answered, “Yes, I did consider becoming a pastor but discovered that I loved teaching.”

Other questions followed but she and a friend stayed behind after class ended to thank me for my answer, then added, “I am not religious, but I am a spiritual person.” Listening to my culture, I was not surprised by her admission. I had heard it before. What struck me about the conversation was her honest declaration. It was good to hear a student so well articulate her belief, and I thanked her for it

The brief conversation made me think again about how everyone believes something. Claims are staked on those beliefs. My job, as a professor, is to hold a mirror up to myself and my students, asking each one of us to be honest about those beliefs. We may not agree with each other. In the pluralistic public sphere, the freedom of belief is imperative in America. To appreciate others’ points of view without necessarily capitulating ours is important. My responsibility in the public university is not to change students. My job is to make sure they have had an opportunity to consider all sides of an issue before taking upon themselves the responsibility to own their belief. And today, I introduce my students to Thomas Sowell.

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  1. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Nice shirt!

    • #1
  2. Randy Webster Inactive
    Randy Webster
    @RandyWebster

    Mark Eckel: To appreciate others’ points of view without necessarily capitulating ours is important.

    The left does not agree.

    I agree about the shirt.

    • #2
  3. Mark Eckel Coolidge
    Mark Eckel
    @MarkEckel

    Randy Webster (View Comment):

    Mark Eckel: To appreciate others’ points of view without necessarily capitulating ours is important.

    The left does not agree.

    I agree about the shirt.

    Indeed! I agree! But in darkness, a candle casts great light. :)

    • #3
  4. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    What’s a spiritual person?

    And perhaps does he follow a particular spirit?  A spirit of giving, or helping, or commiserating?

    • #4
  5. No Caesar Thatcher
    No Caesar
    @NoCaesar

    Flicker (View Comment):

    What’s a spiritual person?

    And perhaps does he follow a particular spirit? A spirit of giving, or helping, or commiserating?

    I think the most charitable definition of a “Spiritual Person” is someone who wants to follow a transcendental belief, but hasn’t found it yet.  A less charitable definition is someone not willing to make the sacrifices to follow a true belief.

    • #5
  6. Front Seat Cat Member
    Front Seat Cat
    @FrontSeatCat

    Your last paragraph makes you rare in today’s educational environment. Thank you for choosing to teach – in a sound way. That’s a shining light in a dark world. 

    • #6
  7. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    No Caesar (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    What’s a spiritual person?

    And perhaps does he follow a particular spirit? A spirit of giving, or helping, or commiserating?

    I think the most charitable definition of a “Spiritual Person” is someone who wants to follow a transcendental belief, but hasn’t found it yet. A less charitable definition is someone not willing to make the sacrifices to follow a true belief.

    Thanks.  I suppose that works, too.  Or someone who feels deeply but has no particular dogma.  Or someone who ponders the nature of all things and their interconnectedness, but has yet to find any consistency.  Or people who are nice.  Or deciding every day to consistently follow the golden rule.

    I was wondering what Mark means by it, and what his student meant by it, and what Mark took his student to mean.  I mean, in my experience, spiritual persons have few set beliefs and are basically casuists, and see themselves as sensitive, generous and tolerant.

    But then again some wickens see themselves as spiritual people too, not part of any religion, but just having a different view and a proper spiritual interpretation of reality.  I’ve known a few.  They’re very nice people, generally.

    So I’m asking what he accepts with the description of being a spiritual person.

    • #7
  8. Mark Camp Member
    Mark Camp
    @MarkCamp

    Flicker (View Comment):

    What’s a spiritual person?

    It is obvious that, strictly speaking, one assigns to a given idea whatever gesture one likes, and assigns a given gesture to whatever idea one pleases. 

    Thus we use the sentence, “What’s a spiritual person?” not literally (it would be a nonsensical sentence) but as shorthand for, “What definition do people commonly have in mind when they use the string of glyphs or phonemes , “spiritual person”?

    Here’s what idea I refer to (in my mind, never out loud) with the verbal gesture “spiritual person”:

    A person is a spiritual person if and only if his actions are initiated by some spirit.

    I am inclined to believe that

    • all actions are initiated by some spirit, and
    • all persons act
    • therefore, all persons are spiritual persons.

    That is why I never use the word out loud. It has no purpose because it has no discriminating power.  Analogy: If every mammalian species nurses its young, then “mammalian species that nurses its young” is not a useful term.

    As an orthodox (in my opinion) Christian, I must believe that there are two action-initiating spirits, the spirit of light and life and truth and joy and good, and the spirit of darkness and death and suffering and wickedness. And that these two spirits are at war with each other. 

    The spirit of light was first mentioned in the second verse of Genesis, “Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.” 

    The spirit of darkness was called by Paul, in Ephesians, “the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.”

     

     

    • #8
  9. JoelB Member
    JoelB
    @JoelB

    Where are you teaching this course, Mark? Is it a public or private school?

    • #9
  10. DonG (2+2=5. Say it!) Coolidge
    DonG (2+2=5. Say it!)
    @DonG

    I think it is a good exercise for people to write down their First Principles and their their derived principles.   Then it is good to identify places where they conflict.  Hypocrisy occurs often in people that espouse a principle, but don’t believe it or follow it.  People on the Left notoriously decide based on feelings and not principles.   

    From that, you can do interesting things like try to guess what person’s principles are based on their actions (eg, John Kerry cares about John Kerry) or based on their solutions to problems (eg, Thomas Sowell believes in self-sufficiency).   When people disagree on a topic it is helpful to compare principles (eg, I favor future generations over past generations).

    • #10
  11. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    What’s a spiritual person?

    It is obvious that, strictly speaking, one assigns to a given idea whatever gesture one likes, and assigns a given gesture to whatever idea one pleases.

    Thus we use the sentence, “What’s a spiritual person?” not literally (it would be a nonsensical sentence) but as shorthand for, “What definition do people commonly have in mind when they use the string of glyphs or phonemes , “spiritual person”?

    Here’s what idea I refer to (in my mind, never out loud) with the verbal gesture “spiritual person”:

    A person is a spiritual person if and only if his actions are initiated by some spirit.

    I am inclined to believe that

    • all actions are initiated by some spirit, and
    • all persons act
    • therefore, all persons are spiritual persons.

    That is why I never use the word out loud. It has no purpose because it has no discriminating power. Analogy: If every mammalian species nurses its young, then “mammalian species that nurses its young” is not a useful term.

    As an orthodox (in my opinion) Christian, I must believe that there are two action-initiating spirits, the spirit of light and life and truth and joy and good, and the spirit of darkness and death and suffering and wickedness. And that these two spirits are at war with each other.

    The spirit of light was first mentioned in the second verse of Genesis, “Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.”

    The spirit of darkness was called by Paul, in Ephesians, “the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.”

    Thanks, Mark.  I think you and I agree on an interpretation of what a spiritual person is, but we do not know what another person means by it.  And language is also shorthand full of colloquialisms and idioms.  Mark E.’s student introduced the term, and Mark accepted and quotes it.  So I was wondering what these two people mean by it, or at least what he thought she meant by it, and what he himself means by it if he uses the term himself.

    I mean, it may mean to some, candles, incense and a mantra.

    • #11
  12. Mark Alexander Inactive
    Mark Alexander
    @MarkAlexander

    At some point, you can introduce them to my Thomas Sowell Archive.

    The password is TS.

    Enjoy!

    • #12
  13. Mark Eckel Coolidge
    Mark Eckel
    @MarkEckel

    And here is New York Times answer to the “spiritual but not religious” issue. Harvard’s Chaplain is an atheist.

    Read the subtitle for the article’s focus: “The elevation of Greg Epstein, author of Good Without God, reflects a broader trend of young people who increasingly identify as spiritual but religiously nonaffiliated.”

    • #13
  14. Mark Eckel Coolidge
    Mark Eckel
    @MarkEckel

    Front Seat Cat (View Comment):

    Your last paragraph makes you rare in today’s educational environment. Thank you for choosing to teach – in a sound way. That’s a shining light in a dark world.

    Gratitude for your encouragement!

    • #14
  15. Mark Eckel Coolidge
    Mark Eckel
    @MarkEckel

    JoelB (View Comment):

    Where are you teaching this course, Mark? Is it a public or private school?

    Public University, IUPUI, Indianapolis

    • #15
  16. Mark Eckel Coolidge
    Mark Eckel
    @MarkEckel

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    What’s a spiritual person?

    It is obvious that, strictly speaking, one assigns to a given idea whatever gesture one likes, and assigns a given gesture to whatever idea one pleases.

    Thus we use the sentence, “What’s a spiritual person?” not literally (it would be a nonsensical sentence) but as shorthand for, “What definition do people commonly have in mind when they use the string of glyphs or phonemes , “spiritual person”?

    Here’s what idea I refer to (in my mind, never out loud) with the verbal gesture “spiritual person”:

    A person is a spiritual person if and only if his actions are initiated by some spirit.

    I am inclined to believe that

    • all actions are initiated by some spirit, and
    • all persons act
    • therefore, all persons are spiritual persons.

    That is why I never use the word out loud. It has no purpose because it has no discriminating power. Analogy: If every mammalian species nurses its young, then “mammalian species that nurses its young” is not a useful term.

    As an orthodox (in my opinion) Christian, I must believe that there are two action-initiating spirits, the spirit of light and life and truth and joy and good, and the spirit of darkness and death and suffering and wickedness. And that these two spirits are at war with each other.

    The spirit of light was first mentioned in the second verse of Genesis, “Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.”

    The spirit of darkness was called by Paul, in Ephesians, “the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.”

    Thanks, Mark. I think you and I agree on an interpretation of what a spiritual person is, but we do not know what another person means by it. And language is also shorthand full of colloquialisms and idioms. Mark E.’s student introduced the term, and Mark accepted and quotes it. So I was wondering what these two people mean by it, or at least what he thought she meant by it, and what he himself means by it if he uses the term himself.

    I mean, it may mean to some, candles, incense and a mantra.

    Thank you for engaging the verbiage and definitions. Check out my reference to NYT, Harvard hiring an atheist as a chaplain.

    • #16
  17. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Mark Eckel (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    What’s a spiritual person?

    It is obvious that, strictly speaking, one assigns to a given idea whatever gesture one likes, and assigns a given gesture to whatever idea one pleases.

    Thus we use the sentence, “What’s a spiritual person?” not literally (it would be a nonsensical sentence) but as shorthand for, “What definition do people commonly have in mind when they use the string of glyphs or phonemes , “spiritual person”?

    Here’s what idea I refer to (in my mind, never out loud) with the verbal gesture “spiritual person”:

    A person is a spiritual person if and only if his actions are initiated by some spirit.

    I am inclined to believe that

    • all actions are initiated by some spirit, and
    • all persons act
    • therefore, all persons are spiritual persons.

    That is why I never use the word out loud. It has no purpose because it has no discriminating power. Analogy: If every mammalian species nurses its young, then “mammalian species that nurses its young” is not a useful term.

    As an orthodox (in my opinion) Christian, I must believe that there are two action-initiating spirits, the spirit of light and life and truth and joy and good, and the spirit of darkness and death and suffering and wickedness. And that these two spirits are at war with each other.

    The spirit of light was first mentioned in the second verse of Genesis, “Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.”

    The spirit of darkness was called by Paul, in Ephesians, “the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.”

    Thanks, Mark. I think you and I agree on an interpretation of what a spiritual person is, but we do not know what another person means by it. And language is also shorthand full of colloquialisms and idioms. Mark E.’s student introduced the term, and Mark accepted and quotes it. So I was wondering what these two people mean by it, or at least what he thought she meant by it, and what he himself means by it if he uses the term himself.

    I mean, it may mean to some, candles, incense and a mantra.

    Thank you for engaging the verbiage and definitions. Check out my reference to NYT, Harvard hiring an atheist as a chaplain.

    Thanks for the article.  It was interesting.  It this your view?

    • #17
  18. Mark Camp Member
    Mark Camp
    @MarkCamp

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    What’s a spiritual person?

    It is obvious that, strictly speaking, one assigns to a given idea whatever gesture one likes, and assigns a given gesture to whatever idea one pleases.

    Thus we use the sentence, “What’s a spiritual person?” not literally (it would be a nonsensical sentence) but as shorthand for, “What definition do people commonly have in mind when they use the string of glyphs or phonemes , “spiritual person”?

    Here’s what idea I refer to (in my mind, never out loud) with the verbal gesture “spiritual person”:

    A person is a spiritual person if and only if his actions are initiated by some spirit.

    I am inclined to believe that

    • all actions are initiated by some spirit, and
    • all persons act
    • therefore, all persons are spiritual persons.

    That is why I never use the word out loud. It has no purpose because it has no discriminating power. Analogy: If every mammalian species nurses its young, then “mammalian species that nurses its young” is not a useful term.

    As an orthodox (in my opinion) Christian, I must believe that there are two action-initiating spirits, the spirit of light and life and truth and joy and good, and the spirit of darkness and death and suffering and wickedness. And that these two spirits are at war with each other.

    The spirit of light was first mentioned in the second verse of Genesis, “Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.”

    The spirit of darkness was called by Paul, in Ephesians, “the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.”

    Thanks, Mark. I think you and I agree on an interpretation of what a spiritual person is, but we do not know what another person means by it. And language is also shorthand full of colloquialisms and idioms. Mark E.’s student introduced the term, and Mark accepted and quotes it. So I was wondering what these two people mean by it, or at least what he thought she meant by it, and what he himself means by it if he uses the term himself.

    I mean, it may mean to some, candles, incense and a mantra.

    What other people mean by it is indeed the subject and you are right that I didn’t quite get to it. I wanted to give my own definition as a way of framing the discussion of what other people mean. For example, if someone says, “I’m spiritual: I burn candles”, I would say “Which spirit is it that has something to do with the burning of candles, did that spirit instruct you to do it, for what purpose?” etc.  Was it the spirit in Genesis 1, or the ruler of the kingdom of the air in Ephesians?  Or do you reject the Bible?

    • #18
  19. crogg Inactive
    crogg
    @crogg

    No Caesar (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    What’s a spiritual person?

    And perhaps does he follow a particular spirit? A spirit of giving, or helping, or commiserating?

    I think the most charitable definition of a “Spiritual Person” is someone who wants to follow a transcendental belief, but hasn’t found it yet. A less charitable definition is someone not willing to make the sacrifices to follow a true belief.

    Reminds me of “cheap grace” ala Bonhoeffer.

    • #19
  20. crogg Inactive
    crogg
    @crogg

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Nice shirt!

    And where do I get one!

    • #20
  21. I Walton Member
    I Walton
    @IWalton

    In the early nineties I was looking through a public library in New Zealand for speech material and picked up a book by a guy named thomas sowell, my first exposure to him.   I read a dozen more after that. I Wrote him about something once, don’t remember why.  He answered.  When I reread him he keeps getting better. 

    • #21
  22. Stad Coolidge
    Stad
    @Stad

    Cool shirt!

    • #22
  23. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Thanks, Mark. I think you and I agree on an interpretation of what a spiritual person is, but we do not know what another person means by it. And language is also shorthand full of colloquialisms and idioms. Mark E.’s student introduced the term, and Mark accepted and quotes it. So I was wondering what these two people mean by it, or at least what he thought she meant by it, and what he himself means by it if he uses the term himself.

    I mean, it may mean to some, candles, incense and a mantra.

    What other people mean by it is indeed the subject and you are right that I didn’t quite get to it. I wanted to give my own definition as a way of framing the discussion of what other people mean. For example, if someone says, “I’m spiritual: I burn candles”, I would say “Which spirit is it that has something to do with the burning of candles, did that spirit instruct you to do it, for what purpose?” etc.  Was it the spirit in Genesis 1, or the ruler of the kingdom of the air in Ephesians?  Or do you reject the Bible?

    When you say this in this way, I understand, but I want to say that there are many spirits, or I suppose sub-spirits.

    In 1 Kings 22:22 and 2 Chronicles 18:21-23 this is recorded regarding directing Ahab:

    And he replied, ‘I will go out and be lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets.’

    • #23
  24. Mark Camp Member
    Mark Camp
    @MarkCamp

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Thanks, Mark. I think you and I agree on an interpretation of what a spiritual person is, but we do not know what another person means by it. And language is also shorthand full of colloquialisms and idioms. Mark E.’s student introduced the term, and Mark accepted and quotes it. So I was wondering what these two people mean by it, or at least what he thought she meant by it, and what he himself means by it if he uses the term himself.

    I mean, it may mean to some, candles, incense and a mantra.

    What other people mean by it is indeed the subject and you are right that I didn’t quite get to it. I wanted to give my own definition as a way of framing the discussion of what other people mean. For example, if someone says, “I’m spiritual: I burn candles”, I would say “Which spirit is it that has something to do with the burning of candles, did that spirit instruct you to do it, for what purpose?” etc. Was it the spirit in Genesis 1, or the ruler of the kingdom of the air in Ephesians? Or do you reject the Bible?

    When you say this is a this way, I understand, but I want to say that there are many spirits, or I suppose sub-spirits.

    I thought about that problem with what I was saying, but decided not to address it.  Because the main point is that there is just one ruler of the kingdom of the air, even though he/it has “legions” of demons. Sub-spirits?

    In 1 Kings 22:22 and 2 Chronicles 18:21-23 this is recorded regarding directing Ahab:

    And he replied, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets.’

    This is a completely new verse for me and an important one, thanks.

     

    • #24
  25. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    I Walton (View Comment):

    In the early nineties I was looking through a public library in New Zealand for speech material and picked up a book by a guy named thomas sowell, my first exposure to him. I read a dozen more after that. I Wrote him about something once, don’t remember why. He answered. When I reread him he keeps getting better.

    You keep that thing safe.  In another 20 years, and especially in another 50, it’ll feel like it would feel to have a letter from C. S. Lewis in your hands.

    • #25
  26. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Thanks, Mark. I think you and I agree on an interpretation of what a spiritual person is, but we do not know what another person means by it. And language is also shorthand full of colloquialisms and idioms. Mark E.’s student introduced the term, and Mark accepted and quotes it. So I was wondering what these two people mean by it, or at least what he thought she meant by it, and what he himself means by it if he uses the term himself.

    I mean, it may mean to some, candles, incense and a mantra.

    What other people mean by it is indeed the subject and you are right that I didn’t quite get to it. I wanted to give my own definition as a way of framing the discussion of what other people mean. For example, if someone says, “I’m spiritual: I burn candles”, I would say “Which spirit is it that has something to do with the burning of candles, did that spirit instruct you to do it, for what purpose?” etc. Was it the spirit in Genesis 1, or the ruler of the kingdom of the air in Ephesians? Or do you reject the Bible?

    When you say this is a this way, I understand, but I want to say that there are many spirits, or I suppose sub-spirits.

    I thought about that problem with what I was saying, but decided not to address it. Because the main point is that there is just one ruler of the kingdom of the air, even though he/it has “legions” of demons. Sub-spirits?

    In 1 Kings 22:22 and 2 Chronicles 18:21-23 this is recorded regarding directing Ahab:

    And he replied, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets.’

    This is a completely new verse for me and an important one, thanks.

    Yes, I debated whether to mention this, in large part because I have an indistinct and perhaps unique view of what a spirit is when mentioned in the Bible.  There is God who is Spirit, angels who are presumably immaterial spiritual beings, man who is material and was purely material until God breathed spirit into him and he became a living soul, other earth-born spirits which I probably do better not to discuss, and then there’s the metaphorical way Jesus Himself described the spiritual.  He did not do it from His perspective, One who created it all and knows it all in infinite detail, but from a human sensory perspective, not describing or defining the spirit directly.

    And then there’s the interaction with, and even indwelling of, both the Spirit of God, and other the spirits, within the human being’s mind and body.

    And a whole lot more.

    I’m sure we’ll know all about this one day.

    • #26
  27. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Flicker (View Comment):
    Yes, I debated whether to mention this, in large part because I have an indistinct and perhaps unique view of what a spirit is when mentioned in the Bible. 

    Have I recently recommended Michael Heiser’s books on what the Bible says about demons and angels?

    • #27
  28. Mark Camp Member
    Mark Camp
    @MarkCamp

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):
    Yes, I debated whether to mention this, in large part because I have an indistinct and perhaps unique view of what a spirit is when mentioned in the Bible.

    Have I recently recommended Michael Heiser’s books on what the Bible says about demons and angels?

    Reading his books would be best.  But, not so much time, here.  As Inigo Montoya might say, could you “summarize”?

    • #28
  29. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):
    Yes, I debated whether to mention this, in large part because I have an indistinct and perhaps unique view of what a spirit is when mentioned in the Bible.

    Have I recently recommended Michael Heiser’s books on what the Bible says about demons and angels?

    Reading his books would be best. But, not so much time, here. As Inigo Montoya might say, could you “summarize”?

    Sorry. I wish I could. Too much to keep track of, not enough of it read to have enough memories to draw from, not able to study it like it deserves, etc., etc.

    Just a few tips:

    Genesis 6 really is about angels having relations with human females.

    The spirits of slain Nephilim become unclean spirits causing trouble on the earth.  The unclean spirits from the New Testament–those demons–are not fallen angels.  Not exactly.

    At Babel, most of the nations are assigned to angelic management.

    Besides the Genesis 3 angelic rebel guy, there’s also the angelic rebellion acts of Genesis 6, and the rebellion of the angelic managers of nations depicted in . . . probably a Psalm.  The “Do you indeed do justice on the earth, you rulers?” Psalm.  Or however that goes.

    • #29
  30. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):
    Yes, I debated whether to mention this, in large part because I have an indistinct and perhaps unique view of what a spirit is when mentioned in the Bible.

    Have I recently recommended Michael Heiser’s books on what the Bible says about demons and angels?

    I don’t know but you can do it again. :)

    • #30
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