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What Will We Call This Debacle?
I know almost nothing about fighting a war. In earlier times, it seems that wars usually had two sides; both sides knew that the other was the enemy. Both sides knew what they were fighting for. Both sides knew there was a plan to go in, to fight, to win, to leave. But who is the enemy in Afghanistan? The Taliban? al Qaeda? Our leaders?
What is this “thing” in Afghanistan? Does anyone remember the original plan for going in? Who decided we should stay once al Qaeda was “defeated?” There are some who say we didn’t want to nation-build; others say that nation-building is the only way we would have stayed. These were an illiterate people who couldn’t read an instruction manual or a newspaper headline, but they were desperate to rid themselves of the Taliban. We wanted them to be free of these barbarians, too. Was that our purpose—to free the Afghans of these monsters, who could hide for months or years until their opportunity to raid and savage the country re-appeared? And what about the women and girls who have had a taste of freedom? Will they now be tortured and killed because they now understand what it means to live free? Must those memories be destroyed?
What do we now call this debacle in Afghanistan? Was it a foolish dream to believe we could leave quickly? How many people are at risk? How many people will die? How many soldiers are wondering what in the world they are doing as their leaders flail about, hoping a miracle will appear?
What is this “thing”? What do we call it? We are running out of words: debacle, nightmare, destruction, chaos, desperation, insanity—is there one word that will suffice? Or are there not enough words to express this “thing” that we are watching unfold in real-time? What will we call this “thing” years from now?
Our illustrious leaders are saying that we will not leave until we free each and every American (and maybe our Afghan allies?) from the country. They tell us that the Taliban will not stop us, but everyone except our leaders knows that hope is a delusion. They say that commercial airlines are stepping up to remove people, but how will these people get to the airport? Where is the strategy? Where is the will?
Where is the truth?
God help us and the Afghan people.
Published in Military
No, there’s a distinction between Islam and Islamism. Islam is the religion, which carries its its own problems, but Islamism is the ideology which wants to spread Islam across the world even by imposition. Not all followers of Islam share the ideology. But underestimating your opponent is the first sign of defeat. Islamism has an incredible flexibility and amorphous nature that it poses more threats that a set Communist nation never did. I would not underestimate the threat of Islamism.
Agreed. We have a real problem in our country. No one believes me, but I’ve been trying to say this for a while. The US is no longer a center-right country. I would say it is a center-left country, and has been so for at least twenty years.
The term Islamism was not created by Muslims. It is a Western term which I believe was created by Americans, but I’m not totally sure on that. Muslims consider the term a pejorative. So I don’t know where you’re getting that it’s the language of our enemies.
You are correct here by accident, and score an own goal.
This ought to help the Taliban’s budget.
By accident? What are you talking about?
Correct. Because Islam encompasses all of life — the religious, social, government, military, economic… In Islam, there is nothing about the person or the society which is not subject to Islam.
I agree that individual Muslims vary in their preferences, but they cannot resist when the masses come with their Fatwahs. They haven’t a leg to stand on.
I have listened to Zuhdi Jasser and those who would amount to his critics and I think you are right.
Zuhdi Jasser has been fighting political Islam (Islamism) for many years. Unfortunately he has an uphill battle. It’s less obvious here the way Islamism is growing around the world, but there are websites that list the number of attacks and it’s pretty overwhelming. We just don’t hear about them.
I saw him once, and my take away was when he couldn’t deny that islam should rule the world. or something akin to this.
Exactly. He doesn’t make any sense, ultimately. I don’t see why he doesn’t just give up on the project. I’m not even sure why he started.
I think you are mischaracterizing whatever you think he said. He would never say Islam should rule the world. I have read his book and his articles and nothing could be further from the truth. He is on TV regularly, condemning political Islam. Unless you can show me anything he said remotely like that, I can tell you that you are wrong. BTW, he was a captain in the US Navy.
Maybe he’s dedicated and principled and devoted to this country and democracy?? Check out his website–https://aifdemocracy.org/
Operation Latrine Grenade
Operation 10,000 Flushes
Operation Ending Freedom / Enduring Fiasco
Bay of IGs
Operation Hasty Conversion
Gosh, I hope I don’t have to pick just one!
This is just my very amateur opinion. I don’t like theology except on a certain vector. He is just too out of bounds on what the text says.
That’s fine and I agree with that and over the years have said similar. I have no idea why you said it was “by accident” and “score an own goal.” Do you think I’m guessing here? I think I’ve read up quite a bit on Islam over the years. I’m not picking a fight but it sounds like an insult.
I’ve seen him too and he’s pretty soft on Islam overall. Either he’s too much of an apologist or not objective enough. There are Muslim converts that go beyond Jasser.
My take is that he either doesn’t realize how political Islam is in its foundations or he’s denying that aspect. Islam is more than a religion but a political movement with supremacists’ views and intentions.
I’m not questioning his patriotism. I’m questioning his representation of Islam, and I’m not necessarily claiming he’s mischaracterizing it on purpose. I think he tends to believe it. But I’m not 100% sure.
Manny, I apologize, as I think I misunderstood you. I suspect that I put too much weight on the distinction you drew here:
I thought you were supporting a more meaningful distinction between Islam and Islamism. My mistake.
Operation Enduring You Know The Thing
Manny, BDB and Rufus, I am going to be rude. You guys don’t know what you’re talking about re Zuhdi Jassar. How many times have you heard him speak? How much of his work have you read? What do you expect him to do–speak like a raving maniac??
He risks his life every day for his attacks on Islamism. When you have seen him speak as often as I have (probably 75-100 times) you might have a leg to stand on. You are letting your biases about Islam bias yourselves against the man. I’m really disappointed that you would be so critical of him with so little information. That’s all I’m going to say about it.
I think the Koran is really problematic compared to any other religion.
Have at me.
I haven’t addressed Dr. Zuhdi Jasser in this thread other than a LIKE somewhere I think. My main exposure to him was when he was all over Dennis Prager — and when *I* was all over Prager (maybe he’s on there all the time, but I fell away when his podcast went behind a paywall).
I think he’s a good man in an impossible situation. I still like him as much as I ever did, but I now see his task as hopeless. My comments in this sub-thread have concerned Islam vs Islamism, and how that’s not actually a useful distinction for any but the most academic of reasons.
What do you mean? I’m taking this that you like Prager.
I don’t see how you can say otherwise. If you have a cultural affinity for your religion and you can make it work out, then so be it, but sometimes you can’t.
I mean in terms of Western values and governance. I really loathe how they make women cover up their faces, but I’m not sure that’s my business unless it’s over here.
Even Osama bin Laden didn’t really hate us, he just wanted us to get the hell out of his side of the planet. That is literally all he cared about.
I’m not talking about the Koran, which I know quite a bit about. I’m talking about Zuhdi Jasser.
The text makes what he’s trying to do futile. If you don’t think that’s the case, I will defer to you.
He can still fight. That’s his choice.