Ricochet is the best place on the internet to discuss the issues of the day, either through commenting on posts or writing your own for our active and dynamic community in a fully moderated environment. In addition, the Ricochet Audio Network offers over 50 original podcasts with new episodes released every day.
Where Do I Go to Say “I’m Sorry” to Afghans?
The blame game is easy right now, and everybody’s playing it, especially the suits in charge. But put yourself in Afghan shoes, on the feet of scared people, saying goodbyes hunkered down in homes with crazed fanatics running around with AK-47s, bloodied knives, and severed heads. Unimaginable.
Hell will be the only place to offer apologies this time around. Pack a light lunch and bring something to drink, though, as the line to get in will be awfully long.
I was going to suggest Heaven, at least for the ones you would want to apologize to, but your way works, too.
Do any of these Afghan lives mean one iota to the present-day “insiders” of Washington, D.C..? (both Democrats and Republicans) I would say no.
They’re much more interested in their dinner reservations at Marcel’s or Mastro’s. Their narcissism doesn’t permit them to consider anything outside their own narrow sphere.
I can’t get the picture out of my head today of Obama dancing at his 60th birthday party last weekend with Steven Spielberg and Tom Hanks at the party.
We just have to keep praying.
Somehow, the phrase “Let Them Eat Cake” keeps coming back…
Liz Cheney was absolutely lacerating today on This Week from the 19 minute point to the 25 minute point.
But there wasn’t anything about that in the accords. There’s no clause that says “if the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan which is not recognized by the United States as a state and is known as the Taliban takes military action against the government of Afghanistan, the Accord is declared void, and the United States shall respond by whatever means it chooses.” Instead, it says this:
The whole accord is basically “Mom and Dad are going to Europe for two weeks and you have to promise not to have a party while we’re gone.”
They could have, at least, locked the liquor cabinet…
If that’s a truck full of taliban, shouldn’t that guy looking out the window, and the guy in the middle at the back, be dead? Last I heard, by their “laws” not having a beard is a capital offense.
Child soldiers.
Hipsters are safe.
We spent 20 years, untold treasure and large amounts of blood in Afghanistan. They had 20 years to learn how to run their society and how to fight. and they folded faster than cheap Ikea furniture. It’s long past time we left. We should have left in a more organized, rational fashion but exactly what I expected with the current clowns in power.
The Afghans are getting the country the chose. Much like we have the corrupt leadership we have chosen: sellouts to China, mandatory face coverings, corruption, destroying culture, abusing children, … I feel bad for Americans.
I agree. I dont have much sympathy for people who allowed this to be the way they treated their national army.
All the people who are fleeing had 20 years to learn to feed their army. To get better accountability from their leaders. Instead they allowed incredible corruption to exist.
The fact is that in much of the country the Taliban is seen as liberating the countryside from bandits, sent to occupy their homes by an out of touch Kabul backed by foreign occupiers.
https://antiguanotary.com/why-the-afghan-military-collapsed-so-quickly/
I wasn’t talking solely about the Trump-Taliban accords, which effectively ended when Trump left office (it was obviously never confirmed by the US Senate) and Biden chose not to follow up other than to withdraw. They were in part dependent on other accords that were either never negotiated or abrogated. It was focused on promises of the Taliban not working with terrorist groups while we pledged to withdraw troops with a few timelines on drawdowns. I’m referring to several agreements that were needed and plans that were being made during the Trump Administration and completely ignored by the Biden Administration. Jason Killmeyer did a nice job on the topic here.
And this is the crux. If, after 20 years, they don’t know what they were really fighting for when will they ever?
You can lead a horse to water … And we did. More than once. And at horrible cost. Only to have the gift of freedom that was made available ignored. Where was the army we had built and equipped? Where was a citizenry manning the barricades to prevent the return of 7 th century tribalism? There is a lesson here for the American silent majority To quote Archibald Cox … “Not to decide IS to decide.” There will be an outcome to whatever the current crisis is. You can help shape that outcome by your actions or by your inaction you can tacitly agree with whatever happens.
Indeed it is shameful that we abandoned those who tried to help us. It is a dark day, especially since the same administration insisting that the i’s are dotted and t’s are crossed on all the proper forms in Afghanistan have thrown open the doors of our Mexican border. What hypocrisy! Welcome strangers but let our friends to whom we are indebted die by neglect and bureaucratic sclerosis. There is also a lesson to be learned here. Those who follow the rules always … always … get screwed,
Which of you called for Afghanistan to be declared a US protectorate or otherwise commit to permanent occupation? There were a few.
The US has been advertising a withdrawal for at least 5 years. US troops have been training Afghan soldiers for decades. Yet it all collapsed in less than a week.
Afghans would not defend themselves. * Americans would not claim their land and culture for our own. Only a fool expects a democratic government of a sharply divided people to maintain course decade after decade.
The consequences are tragic. The precedents of our occupation were tragic. Our leaders never committed to any but a holding action. Hand-wringing now is as much a farce as our supposed military strategy.
As always, we can fast and pray for our fellow human beings. But we don’t direct government.
*Correction (possibly): See Tyrion’s post about how the US trained Afghans to rely on air support which we then withdrew.
Sorry. The Cheney family is not who I want to hear from at this moment. She wanted Joe Biden in the White House and so did you. Well, you got your wish. Congratulations.
Liz Cheney supported Trump’s re-election. She absolutely did not want Joe Biden in the White House. It was only after Trump refused to respect the vote of the American People, and then incited the Capitol Riot that Liz Cheney broke with Trump. EJ, you have a high and strong record for accuracy. I hope that you will correct this.
My kids have friends that are Afghan refugees. These people love America (at least so far). The fact that they were able to come here makes me wonder if someone in the family was helping out our troops. Anyway, my son’s friend has this as his Instagram avatar
Boom goes the dynamite.
You need to just take the L.
I’ve expressed this elsewhere too. And “decade after decade” are nice words but it’s only been TWO decades.
It may have been possible to get some Afghans thinking more about their country than their particular tribe etc, but it would have taken a lot longer than 20 years. The fact is, we’ve been in Japan and Germany and elsewhere for a lot longer than 20 years, and it wouldn’t have cost THAT MUCH to stay longer in Afghanistan either: the buildings were already there, etc, “sunk costs” as some like to put it… And our military troops and equipment etc need to be training and stuff anyway, including for long-supply-chain operations in case we need to do that when it REALLY COUNTS… Taiwan, anyone? Just for one example. The troops have to be fed and paid and etc, no matter where they are. The folly may have come from some idea that Afghanistan had to become A Functioning Democracy on some particular timeline, preferably within some 2-term presidency. THAT was NEVER going to happen. And we should be big enough still to acknowledge that we weren’t going to leave Germany after X years whether or not the Nazis were going to come back to power, so apply the same thing to Afghanistan.
But if you’re not willing to stay for the long haul, then yes, it’s stupid to do it the way Biden has. Nobody should be surprised, though, since Biden is a deeply stupid person.
We gave them light attack craft, well within their limits to fly and maintain. They chose not to learn to do so.
OR
The leaders stole the money needed to maintain, fly and train. Either way, it makes no difference.
In 1971 I went on a climbing expedition into Nuristan to climb Mir Samir. What I saw at the time was a place, not a nation. There was a king, but he essentially ruled in Kabul. The people had no sense of being Afghans. Each village had its own separate identity. We hired porter in a village at the end of the road in the Pech valley. When we reached the next village heading up the canyon those villagers wanted our porters to go home and allow their people to assume the job. We had spent hours negotiating in the village of Nangalam for our porters. We weren’t ready to go through the same process ten mile up the trail, particularly because we realized that when we reached the next village, Wama, we would have to go through the whole process again. After crossing a 15000 foot pass we dropped into an adjacent valley, the Kamal Kwar. Not only did they speak a totally different dialect, but their houses were completely different.
That is Afghanistan. It is a place, not a nation. The only unifying thing is Islam, and that is a moveable feast. There are Sunni and Shia Muslims throughout the country. There are also a remarkable number of different races, some from the neighboring countries to the north and east, west, and south, some the descendents of Ghenghis Khan who repopulated the decimated country after the hordes moved on. You want diversity, Afghanistan is diverse to the extreme. Once you are outside or one of the major cities, it is simply tribal.
Very simply, that is why the Taliban is so effective at gaining control. They represent on some level the only really unifying factor, Islam. It may be a primitive, insane form of the religion, but there is sufficient proximity to what every Muslim believes that it gives the people a sense of unity that “democracy” simply doesn’t. If you want to get a feel for how it works, look at the Black Muslim movement. It provides something to its adherents that nothing else has. It provides structure which gives meaning to otherwise unstructured, meaningless lives. That, for many, represents safety and security. In a nation which has been torn by wars for the last 30 years that is a pretty attractive prospect. It might not appeal to the more cosmopolitan, city dwellers, but for the vast majority it is something that they can live with. I can assure you that in the villages of Wama or Weigel, or Kamdesh, the three major towns in Nuristan, that the people have no interest in the reforms, like educating women that were all the rave in Kabul. For them, the Taliban aren’t all that repugnant.
What Biden did is appalling. There are certainly many whose lives have been destroyed or will be, but for the vast majority of Afghans, it is likely that nothing will really change.
First off, if nothing really changes, why would they care about reform happening “elsewhere?” Maybe there’s no big reason for them to oppose the Taliban, but there doesn’t sound like any reason to support them either, if it doesn’t change their lives either way.
But what struck me first about your description of Afghanistan was how similar it sounded to early America, especially before the “founding” in the late 18th century but even continuing on for at least a century after that. There’s a lot of architectural diversity in the US, and people often do think it’s best if local people do local work…
20 years was just too short a time to expect any kind of larger cohesion to develop, especially if there wasn’t “outreach” to more remote areas.
All of us? Or maybe just the ones who let it happen, even who arguably WANTED IT to happen, so they voted for Biden?
I find myself disagreeing with most of the opinions expressed here at Ricochet about the situation in Afghanistan. This is unsurprising, as I seem to be in a pretty small minority on most issues, even among conservatives.
What evidence is there that the “normal” Afghan is different from the Taliban? I know little about the country. The data that I’ve consulted indicates that: (1) the country is about 99.7% Muslim, and (2) among the Muslims, 99% want to live under Sharia. So my guess is that an Afghan who some people here characterize as our “friends” or “allies” are just about as bad as the Taliban.
If this is correct, then the fundamental problem is the Afghan people, their culture, and their religion. We have been unsuccessful in changing this, which is not surprising. They probably don’t want to change.
In my view, we’ve given the people of Afghanistan almost 20 years to form the type of society and government that we would like to see. The haven’t done so, and don’t seem to want to do so.
So it’s not clear to me why many of you seem to think that we’ve failed the Afghans, and need to apologize. If anything, maybe they need to apologize to us for their failure to reform their society. But I don’t feel strongly about this, either, as they have their culture and ways, and wish to preserve them. This is unfortunate, but almost inevitable.
I don’t feel any shame or humiliation. We weren’t driven out of Afghanistan. While we were there, it appears that a minimal US force of about 2,500 guys held the Taliban in check. But we’re tired of the effort, which has been a failure and does not hold out any reasonable prospect of success. So we’ve decided to leave. It appears that this was Trump’s plan, and that Biden is continuing it.
I do not have the emotional attachment that many seem to have to our supposed “friends” or “allies.” Afghanistan seems to be a seething cauldron of Muslim fanaticism, with different factions struggling for dominance. Some thought that they would be best served by siding with us temporarily. I don’t think that we promised to stay forever, and even if we did, this would have been a foolish policy.
I don’t want any more Afghans — or Muslims generally — in our country. So I’m not in support of the idea of bringing any such people to our country. In this respect, the unexpectedly rapid collapse of the Afghan government seems to be resulting in the policy outcome that I prefer.
Francis Martel said the exact same thing on Breitbart News Daily siriusXM this morning. The only unifying thing they have for organizing society is Islam. Even if they aren’t fundamentalist, too many just default to that because there’s no better option.