Where Do I Go to Say “I’m Sorry” to Afghans?

 

The blame game is easy right now, and everybody’s playing it, especially the suits in charge. But put yourself in Afghan shoes, on the feet of scared people, saying goodbyes hunkered down in homes with crazed fanatics running around with AK-47s, bloodied knives, and severed heads. Unimaginable.

It is impossible for any of us in the United States to know what it feels like to be a normal Afghan right now; especially a young woman, or the parents of one. Hostile forces you thought you’d been liberated from twenty years ago are back and with a vengeance. If you’re a woman between the ages of 15-45, you’re about to be placed into an arranged marriage to a Taliban fighter. You’re at least on a list. And it will be a one-sided affair. He can decapitate you anytime, without penalty, if you don’t capitulate. In every way. Just as they’ve done to hundreds of others deemed remotely disloyal to radical Islam or the new overlords.

It’s nothing remotely like we experienced, even from the worst public officials among us – think Governors Andrew Cuomo (NY), Tom Wolf (PA), Phil Murphy, (NJ), Gretchen Whitmer (MI), and others – who gleefully shut down our lives and businesses and sent us scurrying stores to stock up on toilet paper and cleaning supplies 16 months or so ago. We were told to lockdown, stay home, shut down schools, not wear masks, wear masks, and watch helplessly as Governors Cuomo, Wolf, and Murphy, especially shoved COVID-positive elderly back into nursing homes. Tens of thousands died. Millions more, especially children, continue to suffer emotionally and physically with never-ending mask mandates.

But even now, under these circumstances, we should bend a knee, count our blessings, and thank the Almighty.

No, Afghanistan today is much worse, much more deadly, more depressing, and with repercussions bigger than a once-in-a-century pandemic that kills way less than 5% of the people it infects. They have nowhere to turn, and no hope for the immediate future. None. No vaccines, no Dr. Fauci’s, and no American troops.

The Afghan people have been betrayed, and not just by the Biden Administration and their “suits.” They have been betrayed especially by their own government, their own corrupt society, and now by the rest of the world. They are now prisoners to a malevolent, misogynist, tyrannical, emboldened, and a murderous regime that promises a return to the worst of the dark ages. In every respect. Perhaps you’ve read the stories. It’s worse than that.

This post from Bari Weiss’s superb Substack account (you should support her work) will give you a feel for what it is like to be in Afghanistan right now. You don’t want to read it, but you must. We need to fully understand what is happening, right now. Afghanistan, their region, and frankly the world is a bit less stable than we were just a few months ago. You know it is true.

How long before we see ISIS, Al Qaeda, and other terrorist groups emboldened with money and resources from Chinese Communists who are poised to quickly officially recognize the “new government,” no doubt with plans to add them to their “belt and road” initiatives, extract rare earth minerals and pad Taliban coffers and their allied terrorist groups? Oh, by the way, how’s our US southern border doing?

At least Dr. Anthony Fauci will be pleased that they wore masks.

US policy, especially under Joe Biden, is to blame for much but not all of this. If only the US had lived up to its part of the deal that Trump negotiated and didn’t cut tail and abandon Afghanistan’s poorly led military. After all, just 2,500 US troops helped keep peace in Afghanistan for many years, after a couple of surges. Joe Biden sent 5,000 troops in hurriedly to extract an estimated 10,000 Americans and blamed Donald Trump for it. If only Afghanistan has lived up to its potential and understood what it was really fighting for. It has tried in past years to enjoy western-style freedoms, and Kabul was a charming and modern international city in the 1970s. You can look it up. That’s over.

This had less to do with “nation-building” – something we really never did – and everything to do with having smart leaders with a game plan they were willing to live up to. Just read what former Sec’y of State Mike Pompeo and the Trump Administration negotiated and were prepared to do if they had been in charge the past 7 months. It’s not what happened; Biden would not enforce the deal and the Taliban smelled weakness (noticed by other countries, no doubt). That is indisputable, no matter the gaslighting we can all see-through in the media.

For Americans, we’ll never be trusted anytime soon, especially in the Middle East, and we don’t deserve to be, at least not now. Biden cut tail and scampered, but no worse than Afghan’s own leaders and military. For Afghans, their lives turn to misery, religious totalitarianism, and tribalism.

If we had a real President, he would apologize, admit it was his fault, learn from it all, point out the errors (going back to the Bush and Obama Administrations) and find new paths forward with resolve and leadership. He would especially apologize to the 2,500 or so Gold Star moms and dads who lost sons and daughters, and the 20,000 or so wounded from service in Afghanistan. We are not so blessed with such a President, sadly, not remotely close. I would respect him or her very much if we did.

Our diminished President won’t do it, but where can I tell the Afghan people how sorry I am?

Here’s the post from Bari Weiss. Stick with it, read it all. To the end. Have tissues nearby. And it’s OK to get really angry. I am.

We Once Waltzed in Kabul

The U.S. abandoned my friends. Now they are trapped in Afghanistan and hiding from the Taliban.

Kathy Gilsinan

5 hr ago10581

Displaced Afghans reach out for aid from a local Muslim organization at a makeshift camp on August 10, 2021, in Kabul. (Paula Bronstein /Getty Images)

Catastrophe. Calamity. Chaos. Humiliation. Tragedy.

All words that can be used to describe what we are witnessing right now in Afghanistan, 20 years since the attacks of September 11, 2001.

You can believe, as many people I respect do, that this war should have ended long ago. You can believe that it was always unwinnable and should have never started in the first place. You can believe that it was utterly naive that America ever thought that something resembling human rights could take root in this foreign land.

But the disgraceful, haunting scenes we are now witnessing— were those also a fait accompli? Of course not.

And I cannot look away from them. From the helicopters evacuating Americans from the U.S. embassy. From the Taliban flag flying over the presidential palace; and from the terrorists who hoisted it hosting a press conference inside. From the supposed leaders of the free world beseeching medieval barbarians to recognize “the international community,” warning them that “the world is watching.”

Twitter avatar for @saadmohseniSaad Mohseni @saadmohseni
Another Saigon moment: chaotic scenes at Kabul International Airport. No security. None.

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  1. Cal Lawton Inactive
    Cal Lawton
    @CalLawton

    Hell will be the only place to offer apologies this time around. Pack a light lunch and bring something to drink, though, as the line to get in will be awfully long.

    • #1
  2. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    Cal Lawton (View Comment):

    Hell will be the only place to offer apologies this time around. Pack a light lunch and bring something to drink, though, as the line to get in will be awfully long.

    I was going to suggest Heaven, at least for the ones you would want to apologize to, but your way works, too.

    • #2
  3. CACrabtree Coolidge
    CACrabtree
    @CACrabtree

    Do any of these Afghan lives mean one iota to the present-day “insiders” of Washington, D.C..?  (both Democrats and Republicans) I would say no.

    They’re much more interested in their dinner reservations at Marcel’s or Mastro’s.  Their narcissism doesn’t permit them to consider anything outside their own narrow sphere.

    • #3
  4. MarciN Member
    MarciN
    @MarciN

    CACrabtree (View Comment):

    Do any of these Afghan lives mean one iota to the present-day “insiders” of Washington, D.C..? (both Democrats and Republicans) I would say no.

    They’re much more interested in their dinner reservations at Marcel’s or Mastro’s. Their narcissism doesn’t permit them to consider anything outside their own narrow sphere.

    I can’t get the picture out of my head today of Obama dancing at his 60th birthday party last weekend with Steven Spielberg and Tom Hanks at the party. 

    We just have to keep praying. 

     

    • #4
  5. CACrabtree Coolidge
    CACrabtree
    @CACrabtree

    MarciN (View Comment):

    CACrabtree (View Comment):

    Do any of these Afghan lives mean one iota to the present-day “insiders” of Washington, D.C..? (both Democrats and Republicans) I would say no.

    They’re much more interested in their dinner reservations at Marcel’s or Mastro’s. Their narcissism doesn’t permit them to consider anything outside their own narrow sphere.

    I can’t get the picture out of my head today of Obama dancing at his 60th birthday party last weekend with Steven Spielberg and Tom Hanks at the party.

    We just have to keep praying.

     

    Somehow, the phrase “Let Them Eat Cake” keeps coming back…

    • #5
  6. Gary Robbins Member
    Gary Robbins
    @GaryRobbins

    Liz Cheney was absolutely lacerating today on This Week from the 19 minute point to the 25 minute point.  

    • #6
  7. James Lileks Contributor
    James Lileks
    @jameslileks

    If only the US had lived up to its part of the deal that Trump negotiated and didn’t cut tail and abandon Afghanistan’s poorly led military

    But there wasn’t anything about that in the accords. There’s no clause that says “if the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan which is not recognized by the United States as a state and is known as the Taliban takes military action against the government of Afghanistan, the Accord is declared void, and the United States shall respond by whatever means it chooses.” Instead, it says this: 

    The United States and its allies will refrain from the threat or the use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Afghanistan or intervening in its domestic affairs.

    The whole accord is basically “Mom and Dad are going to Europe for two weeks and you have to promise not to have a party while we’re gone.”

     

     

    • #7
  8. CACrabtree Coolidge
    CACrabtree
    @CACrabtree

    James Lileks (View Comment):

    If only the US had lived up to its part of the deal that Trump negotiated and didn’t cut tail and abandon Afghanistan’s poorly led military

    But there wasn’t anything about that in the accords. There’s no clause that says “if the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan which is not recognized by the United States as a state and is known as the Taliban takes military action against the government of Afghanistan, the Accord is declared void, and the United States shall respond by whatever means it chooses.” Instead, it says this:

    The United States and its allies will refrain from the threat or the use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Afghanistan or intervening in its domestic affairs.

    The whole accord is basically “Mom and Dad are going to Europe for two weeks and you have to promise not to have a party while we’re gone.”

     

     

    They could have, at least, locked the liquor cabinet…

    • #8
  9. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Kelly D Johnston:

     

     

    If that’s a truck full of taliban, shouldn’t that guy looking out the window, and the guy in the middle at the back, be dead?  Last I heard, by their “laws” not having a beard is a capital offense.

    • #9
  10. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    kedavis (View Comment):
    If that’s a truck full of taliban, shouldn’t that guy looking out the window, and the guy in the middle at the back, be dead?  Last I heard, by their “laws” not having a beard is a capital offense.

     Child soldiers. 

    • #10
  11. Hang On Member
    Hang On
    @HangOn

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Kelly D Johnston:

     

     

    If that’s a truck full of taliban, shouldn’t that guy looking out the window, and the guy in the middle at the back, be dead? Last I heard, by their “laws” not having a beard is a capital offense.

    Hipsters are safe.

    • #11
  12. Kozak Member
    Kozak
    @Kozak

    We spent 20 years, untold treasure and large amounts of blood in Afghanistan. They had 20 years to learn how to run their society and how to fight. and they folded faster than cheap Ikea furniture.  It’s long past time we left.  We should have left in a more organized, rational fashion but exactly what I expected with the current clowns in power.

    • #12
  13. DonG (2+2=5. Say it!) Coolidge
    DonG (2+2=5. Say it!)
    @DonG

    Kelly D Johnston: If only the US

    The Afghans are getting the country the chose.   Much like we have the corrupt leadership we have chosen:  sellouts to China, mandatory face coverings, corruption, destroying culture, abusing children, …    I feel bad for Americans.

    • #13
  14. ToryWarWriter Coolidge
    ToryWarWriter
    @ToryWarWriter

    Kozak (View Comment):

    We spent 20 years, untold treasure and large amounts of blood in Afghanistan. They had 20 years to learn how to run their society and how to fight. and they folded faster than cheap Ikea furniture. It’s long past time we left. We should have left in a more organized, rational fashion but exactly what I expected with the current clowns in power.

    I agree.  I dont have much sympathy for people who allowed this to be the way they treated their national army.

     

    And when the Taliban started building momentum after the United States’ announcement of withdrawal, it only increased the belief that fighting in the security forces — fighting for President Ashraf Ghani’s government — wasn’t worth dying for. In interview after interview, soldiers and police officers described moments of despair and feelings of abandonment.

    On one frontline in the southern Afghan city of Kandahar last week, the Afghan security forces’ seeming inability to fend off the Taliban’s devastating offensive came down to potatoes.

    After weeks of fighting, one cardboard box full of slimy potatoes was supposed to pass as a police unit’s daily rations. They hadn’t received anything other than spuds in various forms in several days, and their hunger and fatigue were wearing them down.

    “These French fries are not going to hold these front lines!” a police officer yelled, disgusted by the lack of support they were receiving in the country’s second-largest city.

    By Thursday, this front line collapsed, and Kandahar was in Taliban control by Friday morning.

    All the people who are fleeing had 20 years to learn to feed their army.  To get better accountability from their leaders.  Instead they allowed incredible corruption to exist.

    The fact is that in much of the country the Taliban is seen as liberating the countryside from bandits, sent to occupy their homes by an out of touch Kabul backed by foreign occupiers.  

    https://antiguanotary.com/why-the-afghan-military-collapsed-so-quickly/

    • #14
  15. Kelly D Johnston Inactive
    Kelly D Johnston
    @SoupGuy

    James Lileks (View Comment):

    If only the US had lived up to its part of the deal that Trump negotiated and didn’t cut tail and abandon Afghanistan’s poorly led military

    But there wasn’t anything about that in the accords. There’s no clause that says “if the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan which is not recognized by the United States as a state and is known as the Taliban takes military action against the government of Afghanistan, the Accord is declared void, and the United States shall respond by whatever means it chooses.” Instead, it says this:

    The United States and its allies will refrain from the threat or the use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Afghanistan or intervening in its domestic affairs.

    The whole accord is basically “Mom and Dad are going to Europe for two weeks and you have to promise not to have a party while we’re gone.”

     

     

    I wasn’t talking solely about the Trump-Taliban accords, which effectively ended when Trump left office (it was obviously never confirmed by the US Senate) and Biden chose not to follow up other than to withdraw. They were in part dependent on other accords that were either never negotiated or abrogated. It was focused on promises of the Taliban not working with terrorist groups while we pledged to withdraw troops with a few timelines on drawdowns. I’m referring to several agreements that were needed and plans that were being made during the Trump Administration and completely ignored by the Biden Administration. Jason Killmeyer did a nice job on the topic here

    • #15
  16. Ekosj Member
    Ekosj
    @Ekosj

    Kelly D Johnston: If only Afghanistan has lived up to its potential and understood what it was really fighting for.

    And this is the crux.    If, after 20 years, they don’t know what they were really fighting for when will they ever?

    You can lead a horse to water …    And we did.   More than once.   And at horrible cost.   Only to have the gift of freedom that was made available ignored.    Where was the army we had built and equipped?    Where was a citizenry manning the barricades to prevent the return of 7 th century tribalism?   There is a lesson here for the American silent majority    To quote Archibald Cox … “Not to decide IS to decide.”    There will be an outcome to whatever the current crisis is.   You can help shape that outcome by your actions or by your inaction you can tacitly agree with whatever happens.

    Indeed it is shameful that we abandoned those who tried to help us.    It is a dark day, especially since the same administration insisting that the i’s are dotted and t’s are crossed on all the proper forms in Afghanistan have thrown open the doors of our Mexican border.    What hypocrisy!    Welcome strangers but let our friends to whom we are indebted die by neglect and bureaucratic sclerosis.    There is also a lesson to be learned here.   Those who follow the rules always … always … get screwed,

    • #16
  17. Aaron Miller Inactive
    Aaron Miller
    @AaronMiller

    Which of you called for Afghanistan to be declared a US protectorate or otherwise commit to permanent occupation? There were a few.

    The US has been advertising a withdrawal for at least 5 years. US troops have been training Afghan soldiers for decades. Yet it all collapsed in less than a week.

    Afghans would not defend themselves. * Americans would not claim their land and culture for our own. Only a fool expects a democratic government of a sharply divided people to maintain course decade after decade.

    The consequences are tragic. The precedents of our occupation were tragic. Our leaders never committed to any but a holding action. Hand-wringing now is as much a farce as our supposed military strategy.

    As always, we can fast and pray for our fellow human beings. But we don’t direct government.

    *Correction (possibly): See Tyrion’s post about how the US trained Afghans to rely on air support which we then withdrew.

    • #17
  18. EJHill Podcaster
    EJHill
    @EJHill

    Gary Robbins: Liz Cheney was absolutely lacerating today on This Week from the 19 minute point to the 25 minute point.

    Sorry. The Cheney family is not who I want to hear from at this moment. She wanted Joe Biden in the White House and so did you. Well, you got your wish. Congratulations.

    • #18
  19. Gary Robbins Member
    Gary Robbins
    @GaryRobbins

    EJHill (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins: Liz Cheney was absolutely lacerating today on This Week from the 19 minute point to the 25 minute point.

    Sorry. The Cheney family is not who I want to hear from at this moment. She wanted Joe Biden in the White House and so did you. Well, you got your wish. Congratulations.

    Liz Cheney supported Trump’s re-election.   She absolutely did not want Joe Biden in the White House.  It was only after Trump refused to respect the vote of the American People, and then incited the Capitol Riot that Liz Cheney broke with Trump.  EJ, you have a high and strong record for accuracy.  I hope that you will correct this.

    • #19
  20. Vance Richards Inactive
    Vance Richards
    @VanceRichards

    CACrabtree (View Comment):

    Do any of these Afghan lives mean one iota to the present-day “insiders” of Washington, D.C..?  (both Democrats and Republicans) I would say no.

    My kids have friends that are Afghan refugees. These people love America (at least so far). The fact that they were able to come here makes me wonder if someone in the family was helping out our troops. Anyway, my son’s friend has this as his Instagram avatar 

    • #20
  21. DrewInWisconsin, Oaf Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Oaf
    @DrewInWisconsin

    Boom goes the dynamite.

    • #21
  22. DrewInWisconsin, Oaf Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Oaf
    @DrewInWisconsin

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    EJHill (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins: Liz Cheney was absolutely lacerating today on This Week from the 19 minute point to the 25 minute point.

    Sorry. The Cheney family is not who I want to hear from at this moment. She wanted Joe Biden in the White House and so did you. Well, you got your wish. Congratulations.

    Liz Cheney supported Trump’s re-election. She absolutely did not want Joe Biden in the White House. It was only after Trump refused to respect the vote of the American People, and then incited the Capitol Riot that Liz Cheney broke with Trump. EJ, you have a high and strong record for accuracy. I hope that you will correct this.

    You need to just take the L.

    • #22
  23. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Aaron Miller (View Comment):

    Which of you called for Afghanistan to be declared a US protectorate or otherwise commit to permanent occupation? There were a few.

    The US has been advertising a withdrawal for at least 5 years. US troops have been training Afghan soldiers for decades. Yet it all collapsed in less than a week.

    Afghans would not defend themselves. * Americans would not claim their land and culture for our own. Only a fool expects a democratic government of a sharply divided people to maintain course decade after decade.

    The consequences are tragic. The precedents of our occupation were tragic. Our leaders never committed to any but a holding action. Hand-wringing now is as much a farce as our supposed military strategy.

    As always, we can fast and pray for our fellow human beings. But we don’t direct government.

    *Correction (possibly): See Tyrion’s post about how the US trained Afghans to rely on air support which we then withdrew.

    I’ve expressed this elsewhere too.  And “decade after decade” are nice words but it’s only been TWO decades.

    It may have been possible to get some Afghans thinking more about their country than their particular tribe etc, but it would have taken a lot longer than 20 years.  The fact is, we’ve been in Japan and Germany and elsewhere for a lot longer than 20 years, and it wouldn’t have cost THAT MUCH to stay longer in Afghanistan either:  the buildings were already there, etc, “sunk costs” as some like to put it…  And our military troops and equipment etc need to be training and stuff anyway, including for long-supply-chain operations in case we need to do that when it REALLY COUNTS…  Taiwan, anyone?  Just for one example.  The troops have to be fed and paid and etc, no matter where they are.  The folly may have come from some idea that Afghanistan had to become A Functioning Democracy on some particular timeline, preferably within some 2-term presidency.  THAT was NEVER going to happen.  And we should be big enough still to acknowledge that we weren’t going to leave Germany after X years whether or not the Nazis were going to come back to power, so apply the same thing to Afghanistan.

    But if you’re not willing to stay for the long haul, then yes, it’s stupid to do it the way Biden has.  Nobody should be surprised, though, since Biden is a deeply stupid person.

    • #23
  24. Instugator Thatcher
    Instugator
    @Instugator

    Aaron Miller (View Comment):
    *Correction (possibly): See Tyrion’s post about how the US trained Afghans to rely on air support which we then withdrew.

    We gave them light attack craft, well within their limits to fly and maintain. They chose not to learn to do so.

    OR

    The leaders stole the money needed to maintain, fly and train. Either way, it makes no difference.

    • #24
  25. Eugene Kriegsmann Member
    Eugene Kriegsmann
    @EugeneKriegsmann

    In 1971 I went on a climbing expedition into Nuristan to climb Mir Samir. What I saw at the time was a place, not a nation. There was a king, but he essentially ruled in Kabul. The people had no sense of being Afghans. Each village had its own separate identity. We hired porter in a village at the end of the road in the Pech valley.  When we reached the next village heading up the canyon those villagers wanted our porters to go home and allow their people to assume the job. We had spent hours negotiating in the village of Nangalam for our porters. We weren’t ready to go through the same process ten mile up the trail, particularly because we realized that when we reached the next village, Wama, we would have to go through the whole process again. After crossing a 15000 foot pass we dropped into an adjacent valley, the Kamal Kwar. Not only did they speak a totally different dialect, but their houses were completely different.

    That is Afghanistan. It is a place, not a nation. The only unifying thing is Islam, and that is  a moveable feast. There are Sunni and Shia Muslims throughout the country. There are also a remarkable number of different races, some from the neighboring countries to the north and east, west, and south, some the descendents of Ghenghis Khan who repopulated the decimated country after the hordes moved on. You want diversity, Afghanistan is diverse to the extreme. Once you are outside or one of the major cities, it is simply tribal. 

    Very simply, that is why the Taliban is so effective at gaining control. They represent on some level the only really unifying factor, Islam. It may be a primitive, insane form of the religion, but there is sufficient proximity to what every Muslim believes that it gives the people a sense of unity that “democracy” simply doesn’t. If you want to get a feel for how it works, look at the Black Muslim movement. It provides something to its adherents that nothing else has. It provides structure which gives meaning to otherwise unstructured, meaningless lives. That, for many, represents safety and security. In a nation which has been torn by wars for the last 30 years that is a pretty attractive prospect. It might not appeal to the more cosmopolitan, city dwellers, but for the vast majority it is something that they  can live with. I can assure you that in the villages of Wama or Weigel, or Kamdesh, the three major towns in Nuristan, that the people have no interest in the reforms, like educating women that were all the rave in Kabul. For them, the Taliban aren’t all that repugnant. 

    What Biden did is appalling. There are certainly many whose lives have been destroyed or will be, but for the vast majority of Afghans, it is likely that nothing will really change.

    • #25
  26. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    First off, if nothing really changes, why would they care about reform happening “elsewhere?”  Maybe there’s no big reason for them to oppose the Taliban, but there doesn’t sound like any reason to support them either, if it doesn’t change their lives either way.

    But what struck me first about your description of Afghanistan was how similar it sounded to early America, especially before the “founding” in the late 18th century but even continuing on for at least a century after that.  There’s a lot of architectural diversity in the US, and people often do think it’s best if local people do local work…

    20 years was just too short a time to expect any kind of larger cohesion to develop, especially if there wasn’t “outreach” to more remote areas.

    • #26
  27. Cal Lawton Inactive
    Cal Lawton
    @CalLawton

    Arahant (View Comment):

    Cal Lawton (View Comment):

    Hell will be the only place to offer apologies this time around. Pack a light lunch and bring something to drink, though, as the line to get in will be awfully long.

    I was going to suggest Heaven, at least for the ones you would want to apologize to, but your way works, too.

    Maybe I was too nuanced. 

    We’re the ones destined to eternal damnation for what is about to befall the girls and women in that horrid land, plus the next group of American and European dead from a revitalized Al Queada. 

     

    • #27
  28. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Cal Lawton (View Comment):

    Arahant (View Comment):

    Cal Lawton (View Comment):

    Hell will be the only place to offer apologies this time around. Pack a light lunch and bring something to drink, though, as the line to get in will be awfully long.

    I was going to suggest Heaven, at least for the ones you would want to apologize to, but your way works, too.

    Maybe I was too nuanced.

    We’re the ones destined to eternal damnation for what is about to befall the girls and women in that horrid land, plus the next group of American and European dead from a revitalized Al Queada.

    All of us?  Or maybe just the ones who let it happen, even who arguably WANTED IT to happen, so they voted for Biden?

    • #28
  29. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot) Member
    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot)
    @ArizonaPatriot

    I find myself disagreeing with most of the opinions expressed here at Ricochet about the situation in Afghanistan.  This is unsurprising, as I seem to be in a pretty small minority on most issues, even among conservatives.

    What evidence is there that the “normal” Afghan is different from the Taliban?  I know little about the country.  The data that I’ve consulted indicates that: (1) the country is about 99.7% Muslim, and (2) among the Muslims, 99% want to live under Sharia.  So my guess is that an Afghan who some people here characterize as our “friends” or “allies” are just about as bad as the Taliban.

    If this is correct, then the fundamental problem is the Afghan people, their culture, and their religion.  We have been unsuccessful in changing this, which is not surprising.  They probably don’t want to change.

    In my view, we’ve given the people of Afghanistan almost 20 years to form the type of society and government that we would like to see.  The haven’t done so, and don’t seem to want to do so.

    So it’s not clear to me why many of you seem to think that we’ve failed the Afghans, and need to apologize.  If anything, maybe they need to apologize to us for their failure to reform their society.  But I don’t feel strongly about this, either, as they have their culture and ways, and wish to preserve them.  This is unfortunate, but almost inevitable. 

    I don’t feel any shame or humiliation.  We weren’t driven out of Afghanistan.  While we were there, it appears that a minimal US force of about 2,500 guys held the Taliban in check.  But we’re tired of the effort, which has been a failure and does not hold out any reasonable prospect of success.  So we’ve decided to leave.  It appears that this was Trump’s plan, and that Biden is continuing it.

    I do not have the emotional attachment that many seem to have to our supposed “friends” or “allies.”  Afghanistan seems to be a seething cauldron of Muslim fanaticism, with different factions struggling for dominance.  Some thought that they would be best served by siding with us temporarily.  I don’t think that we promised to stay forever, and even if we did, this would have been a foolish policy.

    I don’t want any more Afghans — or Muslims generally — in our country.  So I’m not in support of the idea of bringing any such people to our country.  In this respect, the unexpectedly rapid collapse of the Afghan government seems to be resulting in the policy outcome that I prefer.

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  30. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    What evidence is there that the “normal” Afghan is different from the Taliban?  I know little about the country.  The data that I’ve consulted indicates that: (1) the country is about 99.7% Muslim, and (2) among the Muslims, 99% want to live under Sharia.  So my guess is that an Afghan who some people here characterize as our “friends” or “allies” are just about as bad as the Taliban.

    If this is correct, then the fundamental problem is the Afghan people, their culture, and their religion.  We have been unsuccessful in changing this, which is not surprising.  They probably don’t want to change.

    Francis Martel said the exact same thing on Breitbart News Daily siriusXM this morning. The only unifying thing they have for organizing society is Islam. Even if they aren’t fundamentalist, too many just default to that because there’s no better option.

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