Pope Francis Drops a Bomb on the Church

 

Friday, Pope Francis issued an Apostolic Letter “Motu Proprio” entitled, Traditionis Custodes.(TC)

This letter severely restricts the use of the traditional Latin Mass (TLM), effectively throwing Benedict XVI and his issuance of Summorum Pontificum (SP), under the bus. Pope Benedict XVI issued SP in order to help those faithful who “continued to be attached with such love and affection to the earlier liturgical forms which had deeply shaped their culture and spirit.” Apparently, Pope Francis doesn’t think that’s necessary anymore.

It will no longer be possible for any priest to pray the TLM at any time, but will now be dependent on having a benevolent bishop who will allow the TLM. Article 3 of TC is where we get gutted:

Art. 3. The bishop of the diocese in which until now there exist one or more groups that celebrate according to the Missal antecedent to the reform of 1970:

§ 1. is to determine that these groups do not deny the validity and the legitimacy of the liturgical reform, dictated by Vatican Council II and the Magisterium of the Supreme Pontiffs;

§ 2. is to designate one or more locations where the faithful adherents of these groups may gather for the eucharistic celebration (not however in the parochial churches and without the erection of new personal parishes);

§ 3. to establish at the designated locations the days on which eucharistic celebrations are permitted using the Roman Missal promulgated by Saint John XXIII in 1962. [7] In these celebrations the readings are proclaimed in the vernacular language, using translations of the Sacred Scripture approved for liturgical use by the respective Episcopal Conferences;

§ 4. to appoint a priest who, as delegate of the bishop, is entrusted with these celebrations and with the pastoral care of these groups of the faithful. This priest should be suited for this responsibility, skilled in the use of the Missale Romanum antecedent to the reform of 1970, possess a knowledge of the Latin language sufficient for a thorough comprehension of the rubrics and liturgical texts, and be animated by a lively pastoral charity and by a sense of ecclesial communion. This priest should have at heart not only the correct celebration of the liturgy, but also the pastoral and spiritual care of the faithful;

§ 5. to proceed suitably to verify that the parishes canonically erected for the benefit of these faithful are effective for their spiritual growth, and to determine whether or not to retain them;

§ 6. to take care not to authorize the establishment of new groups.

Pope Francis loves hanging out with Muslims and Lutherans and Pachamama but seems to hate those of us who love the traditional Latin Mass. One of the great injustices of this action is that there has been great growth in the TLM in diocesan parishes. The alleged ‘Pope of accompaniment and those on the margins’ has dumped us and sent us to the margins.

This is a big deal. There is a quote attributed to Pope Francis that he was not to be excluded that he will enter history as the one who split the Catholic Church. This makes it look like he is trying to do exactly this.

I am trying to find out if the TLM that I attend will still be offered this Sunday, and if so, where will it be held. Because apparently, according to TC 3.2, it can’t be held in the parish church.

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  1. Sisyphus Member
    Sisyphus
    @Sisyphus

    There is a saying in warfare, never reinforce a failure, always reinforce a success. The application here is left as an exercise for the faithful.

    • #31
  2. RushBabe49 Thatcher
    RushBabe49
    @RushBabe49

    Does the Laity need to “take back the Church”?

    • #32
  3. Joseph Stanko Coolidge
    Joseph Stanko
    @JosephStanko

    Sisyphus (View Comment):
    The Latin Mass is performed almost entirely in Latin, with the alter against the eastern wall and all pews facing the alter. In my experience, for 80-90% of the service, a priest and two altar boys pray facing the altar with the assembled faithful in support in response at preset junctures and otherwise praying silently. If there is a sermon the reading and the sermon are delivered in English from a pulpit. Latin-English Missals allow the experienced to follow along to some extent, but most of the clergy’s prayers are for God alone and hushed or inaudible to assembled faithful. 

    I have a theory: the liturgical reforms of the 20th century were largely driven by the invention of the microphone and the public address system.

    It struck me when visiting older churches (especially large cathedrals) that they always feature a raised pulpit, often placed near the middle of the congregation.  By ascending the pulpit and speaking in a loud, clear voice a priest could hope to make his sermon heard by most of the assembled parishioners, but when he was praying facing the altar, raising his voice would have been unseemly — and even then he wouldn’t have been audible to most of the faithful.  So he didn’t even try.

    Once PA systems became the norm in churches and other public venues, people’s expectations changed.  Of course they could hear everything he said, so why not keep it on at all times — and why not speak English?

    Naturally it will take a lot more research to write a book conclusively proving this theory.  If anyone wishes to write a large grant to support this research, please PM me.

    • #33
  4. Sisyphus Member
    Sisyphus
    @Sisyphus

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    Sisyphus (View Comment):
    The Latin Mass is performed almost entirely in Latin, with the alter against the eastern wall and all pews facing the alter. In my experience, for 80-90% of the service, a priest and two altar boys pray facing the altar with the assembled faithful in support in response at preset junctures and otherwise praying silently. If there is a sermon the reading and the sermon are delivered in English from a pulpit. Latin-English Missals allow the experienced to follow along to some extent, but most of the clergy’s prayers are for God alone and hushed or inaudible to assembled faithful.

    I have a theory: the liturgical reforms of the 20th century were largely driven by the invention of the microphone and the public address system.

    It struck me when visiting older churches (especially large cathedrals) that they always feature a raised pulpit, often placed near the middle of the congregation. By ascending the pulpit and speaking in a loud, clear voice a priest could hope to make his sermon heard by most of the assembled parishioners, but when he was praying facing the altar, raising his voice would have been unseemly — and even then he wouldn’t have been audible to most of the faithful. So he didn’t even try.

    Once PA systems became the norm in churches and other public venues, people’s expectations changed. Of course they could hear everything he said, so why not keep it on at all times — and why not speak English?

    Naturally it will take a lot more research to write a book conclusively proving this theory. If anyone wishes to write a large grant to support this research, please PM me.

    The worship in the round or in the amphitheater style so popular today would always have worked better acoustically than the two rows of pews classically serving as the stem of the cross layout. Just ask Pericles.

    • #34
  5. Scott Wilmot Member
    Scott Wilmot
    @ScottWilmot

    Fr. Z has a few words on the use of microphones at mass:

    https://wdtprs.com/2020/10/ask-father-use-of-a-microphone-during-traditional-latin-low-mass-wherein-fr-z-rants/

    • #35
  6. Scott Wilmot Member
    Scott Wilmot
    @ScottWilmot

    RushBabe49 (View Comment):
    One question.  Would someone like Mozart or Bach have written Masses for the Vatican II-style?  Have any modern composers written masses since 1972?  The answer might say something.

    Good question. The Novus Ordo is in desperate need of beauty – good, sacred music would help.

    I am not expert in sacred music but I think there is a Scottish (or maybe English) composer who has written mass.

    • #36
  7. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Accepting the authority/validity of Vatican II isn’t really optional for faithful Catholics, despite what some may wish to assert. Just as we don’t abandon Jesus because of Judas, we don’t deny the inspiration of the Spirit in Church councils because we don’t like their near-term effect. If we trust that Jesus established one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church with Peter (and his successors) as the deciding voice in disputed matters, and against which the gates of hell will not prevail, we are bound in obedience to the universal magisterial teachings of Vatican II, and to “good-faith” consideration of the ordinary magisterial teachings of same.

    However. There’s definitely freedom to question the implementation of V-II reforms accomplished in the mold of “the spirit of Vatican II” — which really means the “spirit” of progressivism in undermining the Deposit of Faith and the authority of the First Church of Christ. Progressives ruin everything. But, the serpent has been in the sanctuary from the get-go.

    Why Francis bans the TLM rather than correcting the mistaken implementation of V-II and further correcting those who would deny its validity is still a mystery to me. It’s a complete miss, which seem an unfortunate reoccurrence with Francis. He has the authority to do this. I just wish he wouldn’t,

    • #37
  8. Some Call Me ...Tim Coolidge
    Some Call Me ...Tim
    @SomeCallMeTim

    E. Kent Golding (View Comment):

    “Is the Pope Catholic?” used to be a joke.

    Unfortunately, it still is. Pope Francis will destroy the Church.  What will traditional Catholics do when we are forced out?  

    • #38
  9. Doug Watt Member
    Doug Watt
    @DougWatt

    Some Call Me …Tim (View Comment):

    E. Kent Golding (View Comment):

    “Is the Pope Catholic?” used to be a joke.

    Unfortunately, it still is. Pope Francis will destroy the Church. What will traditional Catholics do when we are forced out?

    Matthew 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

    We will be tested, pray for the Church, and pray for Pope Francis.

    • #39
  10. Sisyphus Member
    Sisyphus
    @Sisyphus

    Some Call Me …Tim (View Comment):

    E. Kent Golding (View Comment):

    “Is the Pope Catholic?” used to be a joke.

    Unfortunately, it still is. Pope Francis will destroy the Church. What will traditional Catholics do when we are forced out?

    And leave the Church to the serpents? Not the trads I know. More likely to toss idols into the Tiber, actually.

    What will happen if the serpents manage to seriously taint the magisterium is a more interesting question, since there is a tautological taboo against changing established magisterial doctrine.

    • #40
  11. Sisyphus Member
    Sisyphus
    @Sisyphus

    Doug Watt (View Comment):

    Some Call Me …Tim (View Comment):

    E. Kent Golding (View Comment):

    “Is the Pope Catholic?” used to be a joke.

    Unfortunately, it still is. Pope Francis will destroy the Church. What will traditional Catholics do when we are forced out?

    Matthew 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

    We will be tested, pray for the Church, and pray for Pope Francis.

    Be still, and remember He is God.

    • #41
  12. Joseph Stanko Coolidge
    Joseph Stanko
    @JosephStanko

    RushBabe49 (View Comment):
    One question.  Would someone like Mozart or Bach have written Masses for the Vatican II-style?  Have any modern composers written masses since 1972?  The answer might say something.

    In Mozart’s day, writing a Mass meant setting the ordinary parts of the Mass to music: the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei.  All of those are still in the modern Mass, so there’s really no reason why old settings can’t still be used, and the only real difference in composing for the current Mass is the option to sing those parts in the vernacular.

    • #42
  13. Django Member
    Django
    @Django

    Sisyphus (View Comment):

    Some Call Me …Tim (View Comment):

    E. Kent Golding (View Comment):

    “Is the Pope Catholic?” used to be a joke.

    Unfortunately, it still is. Pope Francis will destroy the Church. What will traditional Catholics do when we are forced out?

    And leave the Church to the serpents? Not the trads I know. More likely to toss idols into the Tiber, actually.

    What will happen if the serpents manage to seriously taint the magisterium is a more interesting question, since there is a tautological taboo against changing established magisterial doctrine.

    Bill Buckley once said that his faith had never failed him but when asked what he would do if it were proved absolutely that Jesus never rose from the grave, he answered, “You are asking me to contemplate the impossible, but I will answer. I would renounce Christianity, convert to Judaism, and await the coming of the true Messiah.” 

    • #43
  14. Joseph Stanko Coolidge
    Joseph Stanko
    @JosephStanko

    Scott Wilmot (View Comment):

    Fr. Z has a few words on the use of microphones at mass:

    https://wdtprs.com/2020/10/ask-father-use-of-a-microphone-during-traditional-latin-low-mass-wherein-fr-z-rants/

    Dang it, how come none of my theories ever turn out to be original?

    However, the use of the microphone itself creates its own set of difficult dynamics.  I refer you, for example to the observations of Marshall McLuhan about the long-term effect the microphone had on sacred worship.   For example, when people could hear everything, much was “de-mystified”.  Rather… de-mystery-ized.

    I shoulda’ known McLuhan would beat me to the punch!

    • #44
  15. Sisyphus Member
    Sisyphus
    @Sisyphus

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    RushBabe49 (View Comment):
    One question. Would someone like Mozart or Bach have written Masses for the Vatican II-style? Have any modern composers written masses since 1972? The answer might say something.

    In Mozart’s day, writing a Mass meant setting the ordinary parts of the Mass to music: the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei. All of those are still in the modern Mass, so there’s really no reason why old settings can’t still be used, and the only real difference in composing for the current Mass is the option to sing those parts in the vernacular.

    With arrangements for accordion and banjo.

    • #45
  16. Aaron Miller Inactive
    Aaron Miller
    @AaronMiller

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):
    If you’re trying to understand his motivation, he spells out his concern quite clearly in the accompanying letter to bishops:

    I recommend to anyone reading the whole letter.

    Pope Francis raises legitimate concerns and claims to be responding to surveys of bishops about cultures presently surrounding the old Latin Mass. But, as Monsignor Charles Pope (a celebrant of the Latin) told EWTN today, the Pope was shockingly “heavy-handed” in how he proposed correction. The forbidding of parochial churches from celebrating the old form seems to restrict its practice to monastic altars, which are probably ill prepared to match the experience or accessibility.

    He is certainly right that all Catholics can be expected to acknowledge Vatican II as a legitimate and good council of the bishops, as Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI agreed. Though it would be wrong to ascribe rejection of Vatican II — as written, and not as subsequently abused — to all celebrants of the TLM, there might indeed be a lack of charity in the other direction among many Catholics who refuse the Novus Ordo in regular practice. I have not mingled with such communities, but such attitudes are sometimes critically mentioned by Catholic evangelists, like Matt Fradd, who prefer the old rite.

    In any case, my understanding is that Pope Benedict XVI preserved and encouraged limited practice of the Latin rite not only as an olive branch to Catholics disturbed by misinterpretations of Vatican II but in perpetual revival of a beautiful and ancient tradition that continues to well serve Christians in due worship of God. In other words, I doubt Pope John Paul II or Benedict XVI would agree that communities separate in expression but unified in orthodoxy show division more consequential than, say, the division of English speakers and Spanish speakers within one parish by separate Mass celebrations.

    Today’s news disturbed me. It merits open criticisms, but should not lead to schism. The Eucharist and the Word is present even in the clumsiest Mass.

    • #46
  17. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):
    But, I may be getting a job in engineering for the first time in 25 years(!) next week, which will definitely put a damper on my ability to participate.

    Lousy excuse. I’ve got a job in engineering and I’m still here!

    I have a few other things (people, dogs, garden, church, not necessarily in that order) that have kept me occupied the past 25 years, besides Ricochet. A job on top of that with all the up-front training (I may have to relearn circuits! Ouch!) and initial on-site work puts R> pretty far down the priority list. Sadly. 

    God’s leading, but I’m trying to follow having lost my glasses and with my hat slipped down over one eye. Someone find me a spiritual director! Stat!!

    • #47
  18. Doug Watt Member
    Doug Watt
    @DougWatt

    Django (View Comment):

    Sisyphus (View Comment):

    Some Call Me …Tim (View Comment):

    E. Kent Golding (View Comment):

    “Is the Pope Catholic?” used to be a joke.

    Unfortunately, it still is. Pope Francis will destroy the Church. What will traditional Catholics do when we are forced out?

    And leave the Church to the serpents? Not the trads I know. More likely to toss idols into the Tiber, actually.

    What will happen if the serpents manage to seriously taint the magisterium is a more interesting question, since there is a tautological taboo against changing established magisterial doctrine.

    Bill Buckley once said that his faith had never failed him but when asked what he would do if it were proved absolutely that Jesus never rose from the grave, he answered, “You are asking me to contemplate the impossible, but I will answer. I would renounce Christianity, convert to Judaism, and await the coming of the true Messiah.”

    My mother, a convert to Catholicism, said if none it was true then she would seek orthodox Judaism. It’s a longing for unity with God.

    • #48
  19. Django Member
    Django
    @Django

    Doug Watt (View Comment):

    Django (View Comment):

    Sisyphus (View Comment):

    Some Call Me …Tim (View Comment):

    E. Kent Golding (View Comment):

    “Is the Pope Catholic?” used to be a joke.

    Unfortunately, it still is. Pope Francis will destroy the Church. What will traditional Catholics do when we are forced out?

    And leave the Church to the serpents? Not the trads I know. More likely to toss idols into the Tiber, actually.

    What will happen if the serpents manage to seriously taint the magisterium is a more interesting question, since there is a tautological taboo against changing established magisterial doctrine.

    Bill Buckley once said that his faith had never failed him but when asked what he would do if it were proved absolutely that Jesus never rose from the grave, he answered, “You are asking me to contemplate the impossible, but I will answer. I would renounce Christianity, convert to Judaism, and await the coming of the true Messiah.”

    My mother, a convert to Catholicism, said if none it was true then she would seek orthodox Judaism. It’s a longing for unity God.

    As Buckley said, if God never spoke to the ancient prophets, Christianity means nothing. 

    BTW, I wish I had the faith some of you seem to have. 

    • #49
  20. Aaron Miller Inactive
    Aaron Miller
    @AaronMiller

    Sisyphus (View Comment):

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    RushBabe49 (View Comment):
    One question. Would someone like Mozart or Bach have written Masses for the Vatican II-style? Have any modern composers written masses since 1972? The answer might say something.

    In Mozart’s day, writing a Mass meant setting the ordinary parts of the Mass to music: the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei. All of those are still in the modern Mass, so there’s really no reason why old settings can’t still be used, and the only real difference in composing for the current Mass is the option to sing those parts in the vernacular.

    With arrangements for accordion and banjo.

    My Novus Ordo tent-shaped parish church sings both pre- and post-Vatican II music. Some of it is not to my liking. But the Mass does properly move between periods of solemn reflection and of joyous celebration, of nearness and of awe, which can be assisted by modern styles. Likewise, we sometimes sing in Latin. The excellent pianist/organist and trained cantor are joined by a practiced choir and occasionally by violins. 

    Properly expressed, the new rite does not abandon traditional music but includes it in the endless flowering of God’s creativity through the mystical body of Christ. If much that has emerged in recent decades has been juvenile or corrupt, Catholics should yet have confidence that in every generation the Lord reveals Himself by artistic excellence… though sometimes on the margins.

    • #50
  21. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Django (View Comment):

    As Buckley said, if God never spoke to the ancient prophets, Christianity means nothing.

    BTW, I wish I had the faith some of you seem to have.

    Start with a mustard seed-sized bit.

    • #51
  22. Brian Watt Inactive
    Brian Watt
    @BrianWatt

    Aaron Miller (View Comment):

    Sisyphus (View Comment):

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    RushBabe49 (View Comment):
    One question. Would someone like Mozart or Bach have written Masses for the Vatican II-style? Have any modern composers written masses since 1972? The answer might say something.

    In Mozart’s day, writing a Mass meant setting the ordinary parts of the Mass to music: the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei. All of those are still in the modern Mass, so there’s really no reason why old settings can’t still be used, and the only real difference in composing for the current Mass is the option to sing those parts in the vernacular.

    With arrangements for accordion and banjo.

    My Novus Ordo tent-shaped parish church sings both pre- and post-Vatican II music. Some of it is not to my liking. But the Mass does properly move between periods of solemn reflection and of joyous celebration, of nearness and of awe, which can be assisted by modern styles. Likewise, we sometimes sing in Latin. The excellent pianist/organist and trained cantor are joined by a practiced choir and occasionally by violins.

    Properly expressed, the new rite does not abandon traditional music but includes it in the endless flowering of God’s creativity through the mystical body of Christ. If much that has emerged in recent decades has been juvenile or corrupt, Catholics should yet have confidence that in every generation the Lord reveals Himself by artistic excellence… though sometimes on the margins.

    Well, it can be heaven when the amps go up to 11.

    • #52
  23. Doug Watt Member
    Doug Watt
    @DougWatt

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Django (View Comment):

    As Buckley said, if God never spoke to the ancient prophets, Christianity means nothing.

    BTW, I wish I had the faith some of you seem to have.

    Start with a mustard seed-sized bit.

    Yes, talking to God is prayer, reading the Bible is prayer, questioning God in times of trouble is prayer, continue the conversation, spend some time in silent prayer so you can hear the answer. The answer may not be the one you want, but remember you will have been heard.

    • #53
  24. Django Member
    Django
    @Django

    Brian Watt (View Comment):

    Aaron Miller (View Comment):

    Sisyphus (View Comment):

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    RushBabe49 (View Comment):
    One question. Would someone like Mozart or Bach have written Masses for the Vatican II-style? Have any modern composers written masses since 1972? The answer might say something.

    In Mozart’s day, writing a Mass meant setting the ordinary parts of the Mass to music: the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei. All of those are still in the modern Mass, so there’s really no reason why old settings can’t still be used, and the only real difference in composing for the current Mass is the option to sing those parts in the vernacular.

    With arrangements for accordion and banjo.

    My Novus Ordo tent-shaped parish church sings both pre- and post-Vatican II music. Some of it is not to my liking. But the Mass does properly move between periods of solemn reflection and of joyous celebration, of nearness and of awe, which can be assisted by modern styles. Likewise, we sometimes sing in Latin. The excellent pianist/organist and trained cantor are joined by a practiced choir and occasionally by violins.

    Properly expressed, the new rite does not abandon traditional music but includes it in the endless flowering of God’s creativity through the mystical body of Christ. If much that has emerged in recent decades has been juvenile or corrupt, Catholics should yet have confidence that in every generation the Lord reveals Himself by artistic excellence… though sometimes on the margins.

    Well, it can be heaven when the amps go up to 11.

    If there is a Hell, I’m headed there for laughing out loud at that. 

    • #54
  25. Some Call Me ...Tim Coolidge
    Some Call Me ...Tim
    @SomeCallMeTim

    Doug Watt (View Comment):

    Some Call Me …Tim (View Comment):

    E. Kent Golding (View Comment):

    “Is the Pope Catholic?” used to be a joke.

    Unfortunately, it still is. Pope Francis will destroy the Church. What will traditional Catholics do when we are forced out?

    Matthew 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

    We will be tested, pray for the Church, and pray for Pope Francis.

    What is going on in America today is deeply unsettling to me.  What is going on in the Catholic Church today scares me, really scares me.  I am not a learned theologian; I am not a deep thinker;  I’m just a regular guy, Joe-lunch box Catholic.  All my life, there have been institutions on which I could always rely.  One by one, they are falling by the wayside; but I could always count on my Catholic faith.  Now, even that is being corrupted, by the very man who, more than any other, is supposed to uphold that faith.

    As a rule, I try to avoid hyperbole.  However, I truly believe that Pope Francis will destroy the Catholic Church.  One can point out that this is a relatively minor point.  So, we can’t have the Mass in Latin.  What’s the big deal?  After all, I haven’t gone to a Latin Mass in decades (it was in Latin when I was a kid). 

    It’s a big deal because Francis, because he sees the Latin Mass as a rejection of Vatican II, has forbidden the faithful from worshipping  in a way that Catholics have done for centuries (as has been pointed out in a previous comment).   If I am correct, one of Vatican II’s purposes was to make the Mass more accessible to the average Joe (in English, etc.).  Now that many Catholics, especially younger ones, are seeking a closer communion with our Lord by going to traditional, Latin masses, Francis forbids it because he sees it not as the faithful seeking a more meaningful worship service, but as a challenge to his authority.  He is concerned not with the salvation of souls, but with making the Church more progressive.  And in doing so, he will, bit by bit, chip away at the fundamental catechism of the Church, leading inevitably to its destruction.

    I am not a theologian.  I am not a deep thinker.  I’m just a regular guy Catholic.  And despair casts its shadow over my soul.

    The Lord moves in mysterious ways.  I do not understand His ways.  I can only trust in Him

    • #55
  26. Doug Watt Member
    Doug Watt
    @DougWatt

    Some Call Me …Tim (View Comment):

    Doug Watt (View Comment):

    Some Call Me …Tim (View Comment):

    E. Kent Golding (View Comment):

    “Is the Pope Catholic?” used to be a joke.

    Unfortunately, it still is. Pope Francis will destroy the Church. What will traditional Catholics do when we are forced out?

    Matthew 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

    We will be tested, pray for the Church, and pray for Pope Francis.

    What is going on in America today is deeply unsettling to me. What is going on in the Catholic Church today scares me, really scares me. I am not a learned theologian; I am not a deep thinker; I’m just a regular guy, Joe-lunch box Catholic. All my life, there have been institutions on which I could always rely. One by one, they are falling by the wayside; but I could always count on my Catholic faith. Now, even that is being corrupted, by the very man who, more than any other, is supposed to uphold that faith.

    As a rule, I try to avoid hyperbole. However, I truly believe that Pope Francis will destroy the Catholic Church. One can point out that this is a relatively minor point. So, we can’t have the Mass in Latin. What’s the big deal? After all, I haven’t gone to a Latin Mass in decades (it was in Latin when I was a kid).

    It’s a big deal because Francis, because he sees the Latin Mass as a rejection of Vatican II, has forbidden the faithful from worshipping in a way that Catholics have done for centuries (as has been pointed out in a previous comment). If I am correct, one of Vatican II’s purposes was to make the Mass more accessible to the average Joe (in English, etc.). Now that many Catholics, especially younger ones, are seeking a closer communion with our Lord by going to traditional, Latin masses, Francis forbids it because he sees it not as the faithful seeking a more meaningful worship service, but as a challenge to his authority. He is concerned not with the salvation of souls, but with making the Church more progressive. And in doing so, he will, bit by bit, chip away at the fundamental catechism of the Church, leading inevitably to its destruction.

    I am not a theologian. I am not a deep thinker. I’m just a regular guy Catholic. And despair casts its shadow over my soul.

    The Lord moves in mysterious ways. I do not understand His ways. I can only trust in Him

    Tim, all change is not necessarily progress. There have been times in the past when the Church has been under attack. Prayer may seem like a weak defense, but in some cases that’s all that you can offer. Despair is a calculated strategy to numb the faithful.

    St. Michael the Archangel,
    defend us in battle.
    Be our defense against the wickedness and snares of the Devil.
    May God rebuke him, we humbly pray,
    and do thou,
    O Prince of the heavenly hosts,
    by the power of God,
    thrust into hell Satan,
    and all the evil spirits,
    who prowl about the world
    seeking the ruin of souls. Amen. .

    O glorious prince St. Michael,
    chief and commander of the heavenly hosts,
    guardian of souls, vanquisher of rebel spirits,
    servant in the house of the Divine King
    and our admirable conductor,
    you who shine with excellence
    and superhuman virtue deliver us from all evil,
    who turn to you with confidence
    and enable us by your gracious protection
    to serve God more and more faithfully every day.

    • #56
  27. Sisyphus Member
    Sisyphus
    @Sisyphus

    Some Call Me …Tim (View Comment):
    He is concerned not with the salvation of souls, but with making the Church more progressive.  And in doing so, he will, bit by bit, chip away at the fundamental catechism of the Church, leading inevitably to its destruction.

    He hasn’t got that kind of time.

    • #57
  28. Aaron Miller Inactive
    Aaron Miller
    @AaronMiller

    Pope Benedict XVI predicted that the Church was entering a period of pruning. Various prophets and apparitions have suggested we are within or drawing close to some very difficult chastisements. It’s going to hurt. But we will also witness extraordinary graces and miracles. If you are afraid, be also excited! 

    We were chosen for this time. The Lord will provide grace sufficient for our trials. And we will play roles made specifically for each of us. 

    • #58
  29. Some Call Me ...Tim Coolidge
    Some Call Me ...Tim
    @SomeCallMeTim

    Doug Watt (View Comment):

    Some Call Me …Tim (View Comment):

    The Lord moves in mysterious ways. I do not understand His ways. I can only trust in Him

    Tim, all change is not necessarily progress. There have been times in the past when the Church has been under attack. Prayer may seem like a weak defense, but in some cases that’s all that you can offer. Despair is a calculated strategy to numb the faithful.

    St. Michael the Archangel,
    defend us in battle.
    Be our defense against the wickedness and snares of the Devil.
    May God rebuke him, we humbly pray,
    and do thou,
    O Prince of the heavenly hosts,
    by the power of God,
    thrust into hell Satan,
    and all the evil spirits,
    who prowl about the world
    seeking the ruin of souls. Amen. .

    O glorious prince St. Michael,
    chief and commander of the heavenly hosts,
    guardian of souls, vanquisher of rebel spirits,
    servant in the house of the Divine King
    and our admirable conductor,
    you who shine with excellence
    and superhuman virtue deliver us from all evil,
    who turn to you with confidence
    and enable us by your gracious protection
    to serve God more and more faithfully every day.

    Thank you.  One good thing is that for all the discord and confusion coming from the top, our parish priests have been pretty good about keeping the faith.  Our new pastor has instituted saying the St. Michael prayer after every Mass, which is a VERY good thing.

    I have a tough time praying for Pope Francis, for the reasons stated in my comment.  Not very Christian, but honest at least.   In fact, I am having a tough time praying, truly engaging in prayer, at all.  A long, long stay in Purgatory is the best I can hope for. 

    • #59
  30. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Isn’t the Latin Mass an integral part of formation of Western Civilization?

    • #60
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