Tunnels and Tactics

 

In an article in the Times of Israel, Avi Issacharoff describes the Israeli military’s upreparedness — and quick adaptation — in dealing with Gazan tunnels:

Many commentators and officials speak of the attack tunnels leading into Israel.

But one of the most important stories of the fighting here has been Hamas’s defensive tunnels, into which the Islamists invested tens of millions of dollars, spreading across much of Gaza, from north to south.

Almost every soldier I talked to spoke about the unbelievable, even impossible reality that Israeli forces are dealing with in battle zones — an extensive network of tunnels, bunkers and caches, which allow Hamas to fight the Israel Defense Forces and inflict heavy losses with minimal exposure. The Hamas operatives move from one tunnel to another, emerging each time from a different hole, they fire, and then they disappear again.

One of the officers told me about a network of defensive tunnels the IDF faced in Hiz’aa, one of the southern towns in the Strip. He said that Hamas dug three tunnels along three streets, with numerous entrances and exits.

“Every time they fired at us from a different place. Small squads of two of three people. We decided to put smoke into one of the shafts, and suddenly saw smoke rising from dozens of places along these three streets.”

Hamas’s fighting style in Gaza, those unconventional Vietcong-style guerrilla tactics, raises many difficult questions about the ability of a conventional army to deal with this new battlefield. Some infantry soldiers undergo training in underground fighting, but not on this scale.

A question for Ricochetti with military experience (and especially combat experience): What tactics would you use to neutralize this threat?

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  1. Frank Soto Member
    Frank Soto
    @FrankSoto

    Further request, is anyone familiar with technologies that might detect one of these tunnels while it is being dug?  I have to suspect that once Israel is past this current crisis, there are ways for them to cut off this type of attack entirely.

    • #1
  2. Valiuth Member
    Valiuth
    @Valiuth

    I believe that the classical answer to dealing with things like this is to either use fire or gas to kill or flush out the enemy. I don’t think either of those is considered legal under modern war conventions especially considering that these tunnels are in an area with so many civilians. I wonder if the tunnels could be flooded with water though? I don’t know what kind of water resources are available to the IDF in the Gaza region, but flooding the tunnels be very effective if it can be done. I don’t know what if any collateral damage flooding the tunnels might cause though.

    Sending people in seems damn near suicidal. But if you can’t gas, burn, or drown them that is your only opinion. Again I wonder if it going into Gaza was that great of a strategy. It seems like the IDF is giving up a lot of its advantage by doing so. Just defending against incursions via tunnel and rockets via Iron Dome might be less satisfying but in the end might be the best move. I don’t know though how that would play with the Israeli public.

    • #2
  3. Tuck Inactive
    Tuck
    @Tuck

    @Son of Spengler:  I’d fill them with water.

    @Frank Soto: Cavefinder.  I’m sure the Israelis will have much-improved versions of this on the market in no time… 

    Seismic detection systems would (one would think) also detect the digging of tunnels.  In fact I’m surprised the Isrealis hadn’t been using them, given Hamas’ predeliction for tunnel-building.

    I’m not an expert in this though, just in Google-searching. :)  There may well be reasons why these methods don’t work in the soils in the area…

    • #3
  4. Tuck Inactive
    Tuck
    @Tuck

    Valiuth: I don’t know what kind of water resources are available to the IDF in the Gaza region…

     There’s the Mediterranean, for starters… ;)

    • #4
  5. Frank Soto Member
    Frank Soto
    @FrankSoto

    Tuck:

    Valiuth: I don’t know what kind of water resources are available to the IDF in the Gaza region…

    There’s the Mediterranean, for starters… ;)

     I’m not an engineer, but there could be long term consequences to flooding vast tunnel networks that wind under city streets.  If only Ricochet contained intelligent people of all highly skilled professions to answer this type of question. 

    • #5
  6. Valiuth Member
    Valiuth
    @Valiuth

    Frank Soto:

    Further request, is anyone familiar with technologies that might detect one of these tunnels while it is being dug? I have to suspect that once Israel is past this current crisis, there are ways for them to cut off this type of attack entirely.

     Well detecting tunnels is a tricky thing. A while back my dad worked on a project for a company with a DARPA contract to build a sensor that could detect things like tunnels under ground by measuring the change in the gravitational pull of the earth. I kid you not. It sounded like they were doing it from what he told me, but they lost funding with the Sequester. So he moved on to a different company. This though was experimental and I have no idea what if anything happened to it. 

    I think the problem with current technologies is that you have to be on the ground right above the tunnel to have any hope of detecting it. Also in a city there could be numerous legitimate underground tunnels to confuse the matter (sewers, electrical, subway etc). 

    • #6
  7. Valiuth Member
    Valiuth
    @Valiuth

    Frank Soto:

    Tuck:

    Valiuth: I don’t know what kind of water resources are available to the IDF in the Gaza region…

    There’s the Mediterranean, for starters… ;)

    I’m not an engineer, but there could be long term consequences to flooding vast tunnel networks that wind under city streets. If only Ricochet contained intelligent people of all highly skilled professions to answer this type of question.

     Yah, the sea is a good source the question is do they have the ability to pump the water where they need to. It’s not like you can just form a bucket line. That is more what I was thinking. How much water can they actually move and where can they move it too. 

    Also Frank bring up a good point. Water can cause serious damage too to the foundations of buildings, sea water can do even worse because of the salt. Flooding the tunnels might destroy the tunnels but it could cause massive damage to the surface structures of Gaza. I don’t think the IDF wants the photos of massive sink holes destroying Gaza and killing civilians. 

    • #7
  8. user_352043 Coolidge
    user_352043
    @AmySchley

    I have no military training and practically no engineering training for this, but it seems that the most defensible strategy might be a simple trench.  Dig down 20, 30, 50 yards along the entire border and use all the tunnel detecting equipment down there, where there is no chance of legitimate utility tunnels.  (and cut off all those utilities, just to make sure no one can sneak through in the utility tunnels.  Or just use the Med to fill the trench and create a moat, so that any tunnel that tries to go under the trench gets flooded.

    And as you crack open each tunnel on the way down, you can track down the sympathizers on the Israeli side and send them “home.”

    • #8
  9. Valiuth Member
    Valiuth
    @Valiuth

    Amy: It’s funny I once had a similar thought too. Lets hope its a case of great minds thinking alike. The one issue I see with it is roads and integrated sewage/water systems. That and it will be a massive project. Like building the Suze Canal massive. Also I don’t know how everyone else in the world will react to trying to turn Gaza into an island.

    • #9
  10. ctlaw Coolidge
    ctlaw
    @ctlaw

    Egypt flooded smuggling tunnels with sewage.

    • #10
  11. PHCheese Inactive
    PHCheese
    @PHCheese

    A large nuclear bomb?

    • #11
  12. Roberto Inactive
    Roberto
    @Roberto

    Amy Schley:

    I have no military training and practically no engineering training for this, but it seems that the most defensible strategy might be a simple trench… Or just use the Med to fill the trench and create a moat, so that any tunnel that tries to go under the trench gets flooded.

    Its been thought of.

    This was such an intriguing idea that Israel tried it several years ago, soliciting bids for a moat four kilometers long, 100 meters wide, and 80 feet deep. Estimated cost: $250 million. Israel scrapped the plan because the water would come from the sea and might contaminate Gaza’s groundwater.


    If a moat is too dangerous to Gaza’s groundwater, how about digging the same trench but leaving it empty? That would expose anyone who tried to get from one side to the other. Israel tried this idea, too, soliciting bids for a trench five kilometers long and 50 to 80 feet deep. The IDF even bought a 100-ton trench digger from Texas. The trench was supposed to be only 25 meters wide. But Israel dropped the plan because, at a minimum, it would have required demolition of 200 Palestinian homes.

    • #12
  13. user_352043 Coolidge
    user_352043
    @AmySchley

    Roberto: If a moat is too dangerous to Gaza’s groundwater, how about digging the same trench but leaving it empty? That would expose anyone who tried to get from one side to the other. Israel tried this idea, too, soliciting bids for a trench five kilometers long and 50 to 80 feet deep. The IDF even bought a 100-ton trench digger from Texas. The trench was supposed to be only 25 meters wide. But Israel dropped the plan because, at a minimum, it would have required demolition of 200 Palestinian homes.

     I hope someone considered a path that would demolish Israeli homes instead of Palestinian.  No, it’s not fair, but it’s not fair that they have to build the bloody thing in the first place. 

    • #13
  14. hawk@haakondahl.com Member
    hawk@haakondahl.com
    @BallDiamondBall

    Amy Schley:

    Roberto: If a moat is too dangerous to Gaza’s groundwater, how about digging the same trench but leaving it empty? That would expose anyone who tried to get from one side to the other. Israel tried this idea, too, soliciting bids for a trench five kilometers long and 50 to 80 feet deep. The IDF even bought a 100-ton trench digger from Texas. The trench was supposed to be only 25 meters wide. But Israel dropped the plan because, at a minimum, it would have required demolition of 200 Palestinian homes.

    I hope someone considered a path that would demolish Israeli homes instead of Palestinian. No, it’s not fair, but it’s not fair that they have to build the bloody thing in the first place.

     That makes no sense to me.  I’m sure that HAMAS has a plan to demolish Israeli homes.   No need to get creative.

    • #14
  15. Miffed White Male Member
    Miffed White Male
    @MiffedWhiteMale

    On Japanese-held islands in the Pacific with extensive tunnel networks, we used fire.

    If it was good enough for the Japanese, it’s good enough for the Palestinians.  In fact, it would be racist not to.  What, somehow Palestinian lives are worth more than Japanese lives?

    • #15
  16. Son of Spengler Member
    Son of Spengler
    @SonofSpengler

    Valiuth: I believe that the classical answer to dealing with things like this is to either use fire or gas to kill or flush out the enemy. I don’t think either of those is considered legal under modern war conventions especially considering that these tunnels are in an area with so many civilians.

    I was wondering about something like carbon monoxide, which is heavier than air so it would minimize leakage into civilian areas.

    • #16
  17. user_82762 Inactive
    user_82762
    @JamesGawron

    Son,

    “Every time they fired at us from a different place. Small squads of two of three people. We decided to put smoke into one of the shafts, and suddenly saw smoke rising from dozens of places along these three streets.”

    I really don’t think tactically this is as difficult to deal with as it is being made out.  The problem is political.  Technically, it will be a slow process in which Israel will sustain casualties.  It will be compounded by suicide bombers in the tunnels.

    If Israel is resolved to do this job they will.  Of course, having political parasites like Kerry and Ban Ki-moon whining and disrupting you constantly is the real problem.   Hundreds of thousands of lives in Iraq, Syria, and South Sudan and they don’t say a word.  But if it’s Israel they want to micro-manage every step in an Israeli soldier takes.

    The Old Fashioned Way  
    (If History and Reality offend you do NOT watch the video below)

    Regards,

    Jim

    • #17
  18. Son of Spengler Member
    Son of Spengler
    @SonofSpengler

    Frank Soto:

    Further request, is anyone familiar with technologies that might detect one of these tunnels while it is being dug? I have to suspect that once Israel is past this current crisis, there are ways for them to cut off this type of attack entirely.

    This article describes an approach I’d read about earlier, a high-tech system that uses fiber optic cables to create a virtual tripwire when tunnels are dug above or below them. The cost is still high, though–$150k per km. So it’s still only in the gee-whiz stage.

    • #18
  19. user_989419 Inactive
    user_989419
    @ProbableCause

    Do rats like tunnels?

    • #19
  20. Valiuth Member
    Valiuth
    @Valiuth

    Son of Spengler:

    Valiuth: I believe that the classical answer to dealing with things like this is to either use fire or gas to kill or flush out the enemy. I don’t think either of those is considered legal under modern war conventions especially considering that these tunnels are in an area with so many civilians.

    I was wondering about something like carbon monoxide, which is heavier than air so it would minimize leakage into civilian areas.

     an interesting idea but you need to raise CO levels very high for it to be deadly. The tunnels aren’t air tight, and so you might need really large quantities. Also if using gas you have to expect some major international push back. I don’t think CO will be efficient enough to be worth the trouble. Can you imagine the headlines? 

    “IDF gases Gaza in scenes reminiscent of Auschwitz.” 

    You know that is how it would play out. I think you can get away is something like smoke and pepper spray but more than that and it will be accusations of gas chambers and concentration camps. 

    • #20
  21. Valiuth Member
    Valiuth
    @Valiuth

    Probable Cause:

    Do rats like tunnels?

     They do and I bet the tunnels already have plenty of them. 

    • #21
  22. ctlaw Coolidge
    ctlaw
    @ctlaw

    Once the tunnel entrance is found, the solution is suicide bomb pigs. They can search for trufles, so train them to sniff out Iranian 7.62×39 ammunition.

    • #22
  23. skipsul Inactive
    skipsul
    @skipsul

    Son of Spengler:

    Valiuth: I believe that the classical answer to dealing with things like this is to either use fire or gas to kill or flush out the enemy. I don’t think either of those is considered legal under modern war conventions especially considering that these tunnels are in an area with so many civilians.

    I was wondering about something like carbon monoxide, which is heavier than air so it would minimize leakage into civilian areas.

     A nitrogen purge would work too.

    • #23
  24. skipsul Inactive
    skipsul
    @skipsul

    Valiuth:

    Probable Cause:

    Do rats like tunnels?

    They do and I bet the tunnels already have plenty of them.

     Two legged, or four legged?

    • #24
  25. Michael Collins Member
    Michael Collins
    @MichaelCollins

    One of the problems that grain elevators are designed to cope with is the danger of explosions due to grain dust.  Is it possible to introduce finely powdered grain dust into the tunnels?  Probably impractical, but it is a thought.

    • #25
  26. user_352043 Coolidge
    user_352043
    @AmySchley

    ctlaw:

    Once the tunnel entrance is found, the solution is suicide bomb pigs. They can search for trufles, so train them to sniff out Iranian 7.62×39 ammunition.

     I think the Israelis might need some Christian contractors for this.

    • #26
  27. user_385039 Inactive
    user_385039
    @donaldtodd

    Tunnel rats (Nam)

    Burn them out (Pacific WWII) and drop explosives into the holes

    At some point one needs to walk those tunnels to find out where they go, and if they are interconnected in expected or unexpected ways.  If terrorists can be identified, that needs to be done.

    Any material identified in the tunnels can be examined for point of  manufacture, the site that it shipped out of, point of arrival, which is investigative in nature but which might allow Israel to identify places which must be dealt with.

    • #27
  28. user_124695 Inactive
    user_124695
    @DavidWilliamson

    If the Israelis can shoot a missile outa the sky with a missile, they can figure this out.

    • #28
  29. TG Thatcher
    TG
    @TG

    Son of Spengler:

    I was wondering about something like carbon monoxide, which is heavier than air so it would minimize leakage into civilian areas.

    Carbon *dioxide* is heavier than air.  Carbon *monoxide* is nearly the same “weight” as air, mixes readily if there’s any sort of circulation going.  Same with nitrogen gas.

    • #29
  30. flownover Inactive
    flownover
    @flownover

    Turn them into catacombs for “martyred” terrorists.

    • #30
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