iLike the iDea of iCollege
Rob Long ·
Jun 17, 2010 at 10:33am
Minnesota governor Tim Pawlenty is an interesting guy. Another one of those Republican governors -- Haley Barbour, Mitch Daniels, Bobby Jindal, and more to come, I suspect -- that seem more than ready for the Oval Office.
On the Daily Show last week, he made a pretty compelling case for rethinking higher education. Why not, he asks, offer some college kids the choice between paying exorbitant tuition (and sleeping through 9AM Econ 101) or paying $199 or so and downloading 'iCollege' to their iPads?
As you might expect, over at the Chronicle of Higher Education, they totally freak out.
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May '10
Re: iLike the iDea of iCollege
A conversation is just beginning in this country about how much and what type of education we, as taxpayers, want to fund.
As our economy completes a transition from one based on physical labor to one based on mental labor, the need for higher education becomes more important. But our old ways of paying for it are unsustainable. Subsidies can't keep pace with demand or cost inflation.
At the good, old practical state level this prompts the conversation of what we (as taxpayers) are getting for our money and that is a question that the Academy is truly terrified of having. Because when you add back state and municipal subsidies, you find that the costs are higher than what the private sector charges. The outcomes are generally worse, and the value in the marketplace completely unmeasured.
The defensive position of the Academy is to sniff about quality and insist on their own protected status as sole arbiters of taste. But if you're a governor faced with tough economic choices the ROI of tacky but effective (BA in video game design or network engineering) looks pretty compelling when compared to classy but vague (BA in American Studies)..
Jun '10
Re: iLike the iDea of iCollege
My idea to reform public schools nationwide: Agora Schools. If Socrates could sit himself down on the steps of the agora and just teach, then so can any teacher. The basic idea is to completely dismantle the nation's public school system and make each and every teacher a private contractor. The teacher establishes the day and time for his classes, rents a classroom (or uses a private home), creates his curriculum and recruits students. The following institutions are eliminated: the US Department of Education, school boards (state & local), teacher's unions, administrators, bureaucracies, infrastructure, cafeterias, custodians, etc.
My school district currently spends 10K a year per student. Agora schools can do the same job for about 3K. What it needs is a voucher system that allows parents to choose what and how their kids are educated. Seems to me that given the plethora of budget crises at the state level, this is part of the solution. I'll let you know when I get my first classroom off the ground.
May '10
Re: iLike the iDea of iCollege
Pawlenty was on Dennis Miller's radio show, and afterward, Dennis nominated him for president. He is funny, self-deprecating, a dedicated policy wonk, and approachable. His father was a lifelong union truck driver, and all of his siblings were Democrats until he started to run for office. His interest goes back to the fact that he is the only member of his family to go to college- they grew up by the stockyards in the lower middle class. He is the perfect counterbalance to the Romney-blueblood types.
You do need upper division research universities to handle graduate studies in many disciplines (full disclosure: I have two conflicts of interest biasing my comments on this subject, plus a third one relating to Pawlenty). But there is not reason whatever that a minimum of all of the associate of arts curriculum woks just fine on-line, plus about a third of medicine, half of nursing, almost all of law, large chunks of engineering, most of business, etc.
May '10
Re: iLike the iDea of iCollege
I attended a public community college, a public university and a private university. There were no noticeable differences in the quality of education (which mainly boils down to the quality of individual teachers). There were tremendous differences in cost.
My brother attended a tech school (ITT) and an online university. I'd say both prepared him at least as well as a traditional university.
May '10
Re: iLike the iDea of iCollege
Differences in cost to you, but not to taxpayers.
May '10
Re: iLike the iDea of iCollege
Trace Urdan
Differences in cost to you, but not to taxpayers. · Jun 17 at 11:35am
Trace, doesn't that imply that the private university had a cost to taxpayers? I think you are actually referring to the state subsidies for public colleges...?
May '10
Re: iLike the iDea of iCollege
Given the widespread use of Stafford loans and Pell grants, there are effectively no colleges and universities, public or private that do not cost taxpayers something. I only meant to suggest that the price differential was likely less a function of governance structure and more a function of relative size of subsidy (guessing the community college was cheapest). And while community college was (probably) the best deal to Aaron assuming equivalent quality, it was not necessarily (though it could have been) the best deal for taxpayers concerned with overall subsidy/graduate.
May '10
Re: iLike the iDea of iCollege
I agree, Trace. The community college, which charged hundreds as opposed to thousands, could do so largely because it is heavily subsidized. But my point was that the main factor in education quality is the quality of individual teachers, so the exorbitant tuition prices universities charge these days has little to do with the value of their services.
I expect that's the case because government has so much control over the education industry. The natural balance of supply and demand is disrupted by an unlimited flow of taxpayer money and regulations which favor public institutions. As long as private institutions must compete with government institutions, then they must charge prices that do not correspond with costs and value.
Re: iLike the iDea of iCollege
My guess: no matter who says what about it, our current system of higher education is going to change -- from the bottom up as well as the top down. Opportunities will be taken; often, they look better -- and can be seen better -- on the ground than from 20,000 feet up. So when I hear an idea like this:
...what I wonder is, why can't it start happening without anything being dismantled first? Isn't that in the nature of organic change?
May '10
Re: iLike the iDea of iCollege
Aaron Miller: I agree, Trace. The community college, which charged hundreds as opposed to thousands, could do so largely because it is heavily subsidized. But my point was that the main factor in education quality is the quality of individual teachers, so the exorbitant tuition prices universities charge these days has little to do with the value of their services.
I expect that's the case because government has so much control over the education industry. The natural balance of supply and demand is disrupted by an unlimited flow of taxpayer money and regulations which favor public institutions. As long as private institutions must compete with government institutions, then they must charge prices that do not correspond with costs and value. · Jun 17 at 1:33pm
It was also able to do so because it is far cheaper to operate. CC subsidies are a lot lower than those for research universities as well. Different mission.
May '10
Re: iLike the iDea of iCollege
Aaron Miller: I agree, Trace. The community college, which charged hundreds as opposed to thousands, could do so largely because it is heavily subsidized. But my point was that the main factor in education quality is the quality of individual teachers, so the exorbitant tuition prices universities charge these days has little to do with the value of their services.
I expect that's the case because government has so much control over the education industry. The natural balance of supply and demand is disrupted by an unlimited flow of taxpayer money and regulations which favor public institutions. As long as private institutions must compete with government institutions, then they must charge prices that do not correspond with costs and value. · Jun 17 at 1:33pm
It was also able to do so because it is far cheaper to operate. CC subsidies are a lot lower than those for research universities as well. Different mission.
May '10
Re: iLike the iDea of iCollege
James Poulos: My guess: no matter who says what about it, our current system of higher education is going to change -- from the bottom up as well as the top down. Opportunities will be taken; often, they look better -- and can be seen better -- on the ground than from 20,000 feet up. So when I hear an idea like this:
...what I wonder is, why can't it start happening without anything being dismantled first? Isn't that in the nature of organic change? · Jun 17 at 1:58pm
The main problem I see would be with accreditation.
May '10
Re: iLike the iDea of iCollege
For more good reading on this subject, see an interesting piece in the Washington Monthly titled "College for $99 a Month."
May '10
Re: iLike the iDea of iCollege
Most of my career has been in healthcare but for a period of time I was a VP-Finance at a liberal arts college. And the thing that shocked me about higher ed was how low the customer (student) was held in the estimation of both administrators and faculty. The experience reminded me of interactions with the BMV.
While there, I had a chance to go to a two-week retreat at Harvard for higher ed executives and one of the speakers was the CEO of the Univ of Phoenix. Damn did people look down their noses at that woman. The thought that some people work full-time and get their college degrees by going to school at night was unacceptable, it wasn't a real education. Hmm, not everyone fits in their narrow definition of student.
Today, I'm surprised by the number of college graduates in jobs they could have gotten straight out of high school. Blows the ROI calculation.
Jun '10
Re: iLike the iDea of iCollege
Accreditation for agora schools would be resisted by local school authorities because such an idea would be a direct threat to a government controlled monopoly, and a bigger threat to the teacher's unions. So who needs accreditation anyway? A kid is either learning or he's not. It's a parent's responsibility to know where his kid is in terms of knowledge and skill levels. We have plenty of accredited schools who routinely graduate students who don't know their multiplication tables and are functionally illiterate. And the sad fact is that some parents are oblivious to the lack of genuine achievement. Our public school system needs to be abandoned because in most places it's simply an expensive failure. But what other results would you expect from gummint?
May '10
Re: iLike the iDea of iCollege
Employers are the key to undercutting government control in education. If more employers preferred real evidence of knowledge and experience over that little slip of paper with a college stamp, then alternatives to the accreditation system would become more viable.
I have a lot of respect for my sister's degree in biomedical engineering because it testifies to specific and applicable knowledge. My liberal arts degree, on the other hand, tells employers nothing other than that I "payed my dues".
May '10
Re: iLike the iDea of iCollege
I don't think the majority of people are capable judging the knowledge or skill level of people outside their own field of expertise. Even holding a degree in aerospace engineering, I wouldn't be comfortable trying to determine whether somebody else's education is adequate in a closely related field like mechanical engineering. There's just too much I don't know.
Jun '10
Re: iLike the iDea of iCollege
It's Not Rocket Science
I don't think the majority of people are capable judging the knowledge or skill level of people outside their own field of expertise. Even holding a degree in aerospace engineering, I wouldn't be comfortable trying to determine whether somebody else's education is adequate in a closely related field like mechanical engineering. There's just too much I don't know. · Jun 17 at 4:56pm
You can test your kid's knowledge and skill levels on-line. Simple tests administered at home over the kitchen table. It's even self-grading.
May '10
Re: iLike the iDea of iCollege
Well, there are a lot of things that don't easily lend themselves to "simple tests" taken online or administered at home over the kitchen table. Accreditation exists to differentiate between degrees that are earned by completing a thorough and relevant curriculum and degrees that are earned by sending $70 to the right company and claiming "life experience".
Jun '10
Re: iLike the iDea of iCollege
It's Not Rocket Science
Well, there are a lot of things that don't easily lend themselves to "simple tests" taken online or administered at home over the kitchen table. Accreditation exists to differentiate between degrees that are earned by completing a thorough and relevant curriculum and degrees that are earned by sending $70 to the right company and claiming "life experience". · Jun 17 at 5:16pm
Not for middle and high school they don't.