You Want To Win The Debate, But You Also Want To Win The Post-Debate
No one won this debate. And I suppose you could interpret that as me saying that Rep. Paul Ryan lost. But you'd be wrong. I think Vice President Joe Biden lost by being horribly belligerent and unserious. Ryan lost by not aggressively responding to Biden. And Martha Raddatz lost by interrupting at inappropriate times.
But allow me to revisit something I said during the debate:
Tonight, Joe Biden is embodying everything that women hate about talking with men.
I generally don't get into "gender" discussions. They usually don't interest me. But at some point in the live chat, I just pulled gender rank and let the men know that Biden's demeanor was not going over well with the ladies.
The truth is that we've all been there -- and that goes for women and men -- where you're having a conversation with someone awful. Maybe he's drunk. Maybe he's just a jerk or suffering from low self-esteem. But whatever the back story, the result is that he's condescending, thinks he knows far more than he does and interrupts you when you're making a point. It's not enjoyable.
I'm even willing to give this debate to Biden, in the very short term. But in the long term, I bet he lost it. Think about what will stay with people after the debate. They'll remember a rude, interrupting man.
I have no doubt that these things will fire up the Democratic base. They were looking to get fired up and Biden showed some passion.
But think about how it comes off to women. Heck, think about how it comes off to average Midwesterners. Does that persona age well?
The talk shows, I imagine, will have plenty to poke fun of Biden about. Or as someone on Twitter put it:
"Knock-knock"
"Who's th--"
"Joe Biden!"
You want to win the debate. Biden might have eked something out there. (I don't know. I'm the weird voter who wanted Paul Ryan to say that Americans shouldn't invade other countries for "humanitarian" reasons. ) But you need to win the post-debate, too.
While the media might enjoy the narrative shift for a few hours, I think it's going to be hard to overcome Biden's many misstatements, his blustering persona, and his shocking lack of seriousness about the office he holds and the problems we face.
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Comments:
Aug '11
Re: You Want To Win The Debate, But You Also Want To Win The Post-Debate
Mollie, I think you're right about how this will play with Midwesterners. Looking at my Facebook feed, my east-coast associates thought Biden was obnoxious, rude, and bullying, but found it charming somehow. The midwestern folks agreed on the obnoxious, rude, and bullying, but found nothing charming about it.
How you feel about Joe Biden may have a lot to do with where you live, and I think it's safe to say that his performance will not play well in flyover country, and the Beltway Dwellers will never figure out why.
Feb '12
Re: You Want To Win The Debate, But You Also Want To Win The Post-Debate
Biden was rude to Martha and he lost points raising his voice to her and pointing his finger at her. That irritated me as a woman. But Joe displayed most of his rude, condescending, smirking behavior toward Ryan and it was completely over the top. He lost big points with me. And that will linger among undecided and Independent voters.
Nov '11
Re: You Want To Win The Debate, But You Also Want To Win The Post-Debate
At the beginning, I thought Biden was winning. At the end, I thought Ryan was winning. In the middle, I thought the whole thing was just weird and frustrating. I suspect many people tuned out.
I don't think it was just my political perspective; I couldn't believe she didn't step in and tell Biden to let Ryan finish his sentences. I really think I would have felt the same way if my political preferences were reversed. Ryan might not have seemed in charge, but he seemed competent, knowledgeable, and likeable.
Oh, and the RNC video on Biden's laughs is great and timely.
Edited on October 12, 2012 at 6:09amAug '10
Re: You Want To Win The Debate, But You Also Want To Win The Post-Debate
Martha Radditch has battered wife syndrome - Biden was rude to her more than once and she just took it. She also ganged up with Biden against Ryan on a couple of occasions.
Moderator grade: D
Oct '10
Re: You Want To Win The Debate, But You Also Want To Win The Post-Debate
VP debates are utterly without impact on the election outcome. They influence nothing except what the talking dogs on TV blather on about for the next several days. Ryan's job was to not attract too much attention. It sounds like he succeeded. Unless I were getting paid, I could not possibly spend more than 30 seconds listening to Joe Biden for fear the will to live would drain out of me. I guess I admire the overabundance of civic duty displayed by those of you who did listen to him tonight. Did you realize beforehand that you'll never get those precious minutes back? [:-)
Aug '10
Re: You Want To Win The Debate, But You Also Want To Win The Post-Debate
Better go on over to Wapo.
Biden won bigtime, according to the usual suspects . Keyser Cilizza, i mean Soze , you know the type.
Sep '10
Re: You Want To Win The Debate, But You Also Want To Win The Post-Debate
There have been some posts about losing friends over politics on the main and member feed. Most of us feel that our liberal friends are unable to sanely discuss issues leading to the parting of ways.
Joe Biden is the embodiment of our insane ex-friends. They/he mug, argue, dismiss, lie, laugh, blame, insult, interrupt, name-call, etc. Ryan was perfect. He was polite and informative. He drew the perfect contrast between what we need and what we have.
Well done, Paul Ryan.
Aug '12
Re: You Want To Win The Debate, But You Also Want To Win The Post-Debate
Biden may have been everything women hate in a man, but Ryan was in a lot of ways everything men hate in men. He was tentative, passive, overly cautious and let himself get bullied and pushed around. He didn't counterpunch effectively and missed many opportunities to go on the attack. He seemed weak and was playing defense all night.
Biden was an obnoxious boor, but he made the points he wanted to make and landed some punches. Ryan was a pencil necked geek who couldn't stand up for himself effectively.
I think both candidates lost tonight. Ryan is just lucky he had less that he needed to accomplish tonight.
Edited on October 12, 2012 at 6:23amApr '11
Re: You Want To Win The Debate, But You Also Want To Win The Post-Debate
Haven't got to dive into all the spin, but my initial reaction of the hour I was able to see was that on TV Biden came off as a jerk and Ryan came across as steady, polite but not very assertive. Both came across as knowledgable, which helps Ryan. Ryan, as they say, "did what he had to do," which was clear the Quayle/Palin hurdle and show that he had enough sanity and intelligence to step into the presidency if needed.
Most people already have an opinion of Joe Biden, and deep down even those who like the guy would shudder at the thought of crazy Uncle Joe involved in any "3am Phone Call" that isn't to his sponsor.
I don't see how this debate changes that.
I call it a draw.
I will say, though, that I was briefly listening in the car for he Afghanistan portion, during which Ryan sounded out of his element. Hopefully the Kennedy/Nixon radio effect didn't apply to the rest of the debate. Even so, how many people listen on the radio?
Oh, and am I possibly the first to call an SNL "Marcia! Marcia! Marcia!" joke?
May '10
Re: You Want To Win The Debate, But You Also Want To Win The Post-Debate
Mollie Hemingway, Ed.: My friend Meghan once wrote an essay about a horrible experience she had on the subway once. Basically a crazy person picked a fight with her and this fight lasted through a few stops. At some point she realized that the people around her thought they both were crazy.
You can't fight with a crazy person without looking like you're crazy. It just can't be done. It only makes you look crazy. · 17 minutes ago
This is another of my recurring nightmares. I'm arguing furiously with someone, appalled at what they don't see. And then it dawns on me that, even though I'm right, I sound totally out of control.
Re: You Want To Win The Debate, But You Also Want To Win The Post-Debate
flownover: Better go on over to Wapo.
Biden won bigtime, according to the usual suspects . Keyser Cilizza, i mean Soze , you know the type. · 6 minutes ago
Well, early polls show that voters preferred Ryan. Media will have to recalibrate.
Jul '11
Re: You Want To Win The Debate, But You Also Want To Win The Post-Debate
Mitch Noyes: Biden may have been everything women hate in a man, but Ryan was in a lot of ways everything men hate in men. He was tentative, passive, overly cautious and let himself get bullied and pushed around. He didn't counterpunch effectively and missed many opportunities to go on the attack. He seemed weak and was playing defense all night.
Biden was an obnoxious boor, but he made the points he wanted to make and landed some punches. Ryan was a pencil necked geek who couldn't stand up for himself effectively.
I think both candidates lost tonight. Ryan is just lucky he had less that he needed to accomplish tonight. · 2 minutes ago
Edited 1 minute ago
Wrong. Ryan was cool while being baited to act poorly. As far as respect from men, he got mine. I'd have lost my temper quickly and looked like an idiot.
Jul '11
Re: You Want To Win The Debate, But You Also Want To Win The Post-Debate
katievs
Mollie Hemingway, Ed.: My friend Meghan once wrote an essay about a horrible experience she had on the subway once. Basically a crazy person picked a fight with her and this fight lasted through a few stops. At some point she realized that the people around her thought they both were crazy.
You can't fight with a crazy person without looking like you're crazy. It just can't be done. It only makes you look crazy. · 17 minutes ago
This is another of my recurring nightmares. I'm arguing furiously with someone, appalled at what they don't see. And then it dawns on me that, even though I'm right, I sound totally out of control. · 2 minutes ago
In my nightmare I drop my hockey gloves and leave the ice covered in their blood but the sirens are coming for me.
Aug '10
Re: You Want To Win The Debate, But You Also Want To Win The Post-Debate
I mentioned this during the debate chat, but I was watching the debate on CNN, where they have an audience-response ticker running during the debate. They broke the instant responses down between men and women, and in general, the women rated Paul Ryan quite highly, and Joe Biden got bad ratings, even when he was saying things that women generally agree with.
I think Biden helped animate the base, who are convinced that he mopped the floor with Ryan. I think Ryan held his own and came out of the debate without damaging the ticket. Other than that, the interesting question is how the two of them came across to independents and subgroups like women and the elderly, and I think Biden hurt himself with women and Ryan helped himself with the elderly.
However, given that there was no blowout one way or another, the VP debate probably won't move the dial much in either direction. The worst you could say is that it helped Obama/Biden change the narrative away from "Romney is on the upswing." But all that will change again anyway on Tuesday.
Apr '11
Re: You Want To Win The Debate, But You Also Want To Win The Post-Debate
We have the ability to control, to a limited extent, the post game. By calling, you make yourself a participant rather than merely a spectator. The day after the debate is a particularly helpful time to make calls, although we're now in the final stretch where people are actually voting and every day is an important day.
Mitch Noyes: Biden may have been everything women hate in a man, but Ryan was in a lot of ways everything men hate in men. He was tentative, passive, overly cautious and let himself get bullied and pushed around.....
Biden was an obnoxious boor, but he made the points he wanted to make and landed some punches. Ryan was a pencil necked geek who couldn't stand up for himself effectively.
I think both candidates lost tonight. Ryan is just lucky he had less that he needed to accomplish tonight.
I agree. At several points, it seemed kind of a shame we didn't get Portman. It isn't easy to look presidential when co-starring with an Orangutan, and I'm not sure Ryan managed it.
Still, if Ryan gets the base volunteering and donating, the missed debate opportunity was worthwhile.
Re: You Want To Win The Debate, But You Also Want To Win The Post-Debate
Seemed to me that Biden's tie was a little loose and needed tightening. Ryan's restraint has something to commend it I suppose,...but I would have felt the urge to tighten that knot just a little, ...which is why I can't go into politics...
May '10
Re: You Want To Win The Debate, But You Also Want To Win The Post-Debate
Mollie, here's more evidence that the turn around may be quicker even than you thought.
A half hour ago I clicked on Daily Mail. It had a headline blaring a stunning Biden debate victory. I clicked again just now. Same pictures, new headline. Now it's "Finger-jabbing" Biden fails to re-ignite Obama campaign and CNN poll gives Ryan the victory.
Apr '11
Re: You Want To Win The Debate, But You Also Want To Win The Post-Debate
Andrew: There have been some posts about losing friends over politics on the main and member feed. Most of us feel that our liberal friends are unable to sanely discuss issues leading to the parting of ways.
Joe Biden is the embodiment of our insane ex-friends. They/he mug, argue, dismiss, lie, laugh, blame, insult, interrupt, name-call, etc. Ryan was perfect. He was polite and informative. He drew the perfect contrast between what we need and what we have.
Well done, Paul Ryan. · 9 minutes ago
I don't think that Ryan was perfect, although a lot of his non-rebuttals came down to intrusive moderating. I do agree that Biden was terrible, though. What he sort of reminded me of was the frat boy that liberals believed Bush to be, a Silvio Berlusconi/ Gaddaffi/ Chavez -like figure.
Aug '12
Re: You Want To Win The Debate, But You Also Want To Win The Post-Debate
DocJay
Wrong. Ryan was cool while being baited to act poorly.
No, he was weak. He could have called Biden on his BS about not voting for the Iraq and Afghan wars. He could have hammered home the fact that Biden and Obama have never offered a serious plan on the budget and entitlements more persistently and effectively than he did. Ryan was all over the map in his answers on Afghanistan. He whiffed on his answer about protecting defense. His answer about cutting loopholes was weak too. He also bungled the gimme offered up on the Libya question, being far too measured on that point.
Look, I know people think Joe is a buffoon and Paul Ryan is brilliant. But he just didn't perform well tonight. It doesn't make him a bad choice or mean he won't be a good VP, but he sucked tonight. Let's not get carried away with our counter spin, here.
Civil is code for wimp. You can stand up for yourself in a repspectul manner. Romney did it last week. Ryan let himself get rolled. He's just lucky Biden was such an ass in the way he did it.
Edited on October 12, 2012 at 6:41amApr '11
Re: You Want To Win The Debate, But You Also Want To Win The Post-Debate
Of course he is the champion....listen to him for five minutes and you begin to think his mom should have been pro-choice.