You Like Ron Paul, Except on Foreign Policy
Brandon Zaffini ·
Dec 30, 2011 at 10:19am
The Ron Paul campaign recently released a video dealing with foreign policy, focusing particularly on the opinions of returning Veterans.
As a Vet myself, I was thrilled to see this video. I'm beginning to feel as though my voice, and the voice of other like-minded Veterans, is being considered. Finally.
I know the prevailing viewpoint here on Ricochet is very much opposed, so make of it what you will.
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Sep '11
Re: You Like Ron Paul, Except on Foreign Policy
The background music sounds like Godspeed You! Black Emperor. That's funny because that would make them HOPPIN'-ASS mad!
Jul '10
Re: You Like Ron Paul, Except on Foreign Policy
That link only covers the 4th quarter of the 2008 election cycle. I've been trying to find more current and complete info at the FEC, but I am having trouble with the database function. Someone more technically inclined may have more luck.
I note that the Paul campaign consistently touts the amount and proportion of their donations vs other candidates' donations, not the number of donors.
Dec '10
Re: You Like Ron Paul, Except on Foreign Policy
Since Larry said I could have the last word-- thanks!-- I should note that in the last week we've had two Porcupine Tree sightings here on Ricochet, along with a Godspeed You Black Emperor sighting, which proves that we have darned good musical taste as well.
Sep '10
Re: You Like Ron Paul, Except on Foreign Policy
Brandon Zaffini
Larry Koler
You have decided that any Veteran who agrees with Ron Paul on foreign policy is thoughtless and a wimp. Does that better represent your position? · Dec 30 at 12:57pm
Edited on Dec 30 at 12:58 pm
Obviously I can't speak for Larry, Brandon, but I for one certainly do not make that assumption about veterans who agree with Paul on foreign policy—or nonveterans for that matter. As noted above, I have ideological problems with Paul, but I also don't think he's ever going to direct U.S. foreign or domestic policy, even if he becomes president, so I just can't get excited about his candidacy. That's where I'm coming from, anyway. ... Your point of view greatly interests me, though, and I'd like very much to read a post on your experiences as a veteran and how you came to feel the way you do. I bet other Ricoteers would be interested as well.
May '10
Re: You Like Ron Paul, Except on Foreign Policy
I'd like to know if Brandon and his like-minded Veteran friends either held the foreign policy views of Paul and/or were familiar with "blowback"/CIA's role in the context of American foreign policy and the events associated with it prior to enlisting. I do think service members probably are more familiar with global events, especially involving military intervention, than the average American citizen. However, I'd imagine many, especially those who joined after 9/11, probably feel disillusioned when they realized things aren't black and white, good v. bad. Part of defending our country is protecting our economic interests abroad. That's a messy business. In recent years, our Armed Forces often appear on the international stage more as imperial grunts than liberators.
Let's also remember that those that served in uniform like Brandon may be the only contact some will have with the US. In that way, they are a sort of diplomat, representing us to the world, so I think we should listen to them. They, as should all of us, care about the legacy of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and how that impacts our foreign policy going forward.
Edited on Dec 30, 2011 at 6:15pmJun '10
Re: You Like Ron Paul, Except on Foreign Policy
Karen:
...
That's a messy business. In recent years, our Armed Forces often appear on the international stage more as imperial grunts than liberators.
...
Someone's been reading Robert Kaplan, eh? Isn't he the greatest? Great writer with great insight and tremendous experience.
Jun '10
Re: You Like Ron Paul, Except on Foreign Policy
Brandon Zaffini
Larry Koler
...
There are troops who are "like thoughtless, whining sheep that are unaware of being used" but I didn't say they all are.
I have a
very low regard for propagandists
who select atypical individuals and try to promote the idea that these individuals' political views are representative of the views of the rest of the active duty military. If Paul could prove that, then we have something to talk about.
He can't prove this.
Fair enough. You have decided that any Veteran who agrees with Ron Paul on foreign policy is thoughtless and a wimp. Does that better represent your position?
Either way, that sentiment shows complete disrespect toward those who have proven to be anything but a wimp.
My low regard is for the propagandists first. One can always find atypical soldiers and veterans. Some atypical soldiers are wimps (your word, BTW), most are not. It's the atypical aspect that I object to here not the wimps. But "whiner" (which was my term) -- surely your experience can confirm that type.
The last comment shows complete disrespect for people who disagree with you or with Ron Paul on this style of video propaganda.
Dec '10
Re: You Like Ron Paul, Except on Foreign Policy
Except, Larry, we have evidence that:
1) They aren't wimps or cowards or malcontents whatever, by virtue of their willingness to serve in the armed forces. Some may be, but absent any data, I think they should get the benefit of the doubt. And,
2) They appear to like Ron Paul.
As soon as you get actual data countering either of those, we are going to be continuing to run in circles.
I now accept your invitation for the last word ;-)
Dec '11
Re: You Like Ron Paul, Except on Foreign Policy
This is my first comment on ricochet. I will be honest and express that I am alarmed by the content of Ron Paul's message and his ideas. To understand the motivation of AQ I would suggest you read "The Al Qaeda Reader" by Raymond Ibrahim which translates AQ messages to the muslim people, western presence in muslim lands is the excuse for jihad, the end goal is the elimination of the west. To truly understand the "blowback" of US non intervention I recommend "Mao -the untold story" by Jung Chang.. 75 million dead Chinese and the sequelae of Maoism worldwide don't matter? Or how about "To destroy you is no loss" by Joan Kriddle..1/4 of the cambodian population dead. One of my best friends in med school is the child of vietnamese boat people 500,000 of whom died on the journey.
To withdraw from the world has it's own blowback Paulites. The evil regimes that fear you because of your HUGE military budgets will murder, kill and enslave. The liberal free nations like us that rely on you for our protection, will struggle and then lose against evil, for we are brave but few.
Aug '10
Re: You Like Ron Paul, Except on Foreign Policy
I am with @TheKingPrawn and his comment (#48). I have had enough dealings with mil budgets in the last 3 years to last a lifetime, but seeing the hoops that the USAF is jumping through now is enough to seriously alarm me. I only mention this because I am of the opinion that our mil budgets have been reduced too far.
Ron Paul's position is that all of our overseas bases need to close and all of our soldiers/sailors/airmen need to come home. Even from Japan, who adopted their pacifistic constitution and accepted their place under the US Nuclear umbrella as a condition of that 'Unconditional Surrender' thingy.
If there is a fact that my explorations of the far east has told me it is that Asians fear nothing so much as a re-armed Japan - an expansionist China is a distant third).
The US adopted significant burdens following World War 2, yet that did not prevent the murder of over 100 million humans or the enslavement of 1/3rd of humanity. We helped the other 2/3rds prosper. Ron Paul would willingly undo all of that.
Edited on Dec 30, 2011 at 4:14pmMay '10
Re: You Like Ron Paul, Except on Foreign Policy
Leslie Watkins
Obviously I can't speak for Larry, Brandon, but I for one certainly do not make that assumption about veterans who agree with Paul on foreign policy—or nonveterans for that matter. As noted above, I have ideological problems with Paul, but I also don't think he's ever going to direct U.S. foreign or domestic policy, even if he becomes president, so I just can't get excited about his candidacy. That's where I'm coming from, anyway. ... Your point of view greatly interests me, though, and I'd like very much to read a post on your experiences as a veteran and how you came to feel the way you do. I bet other Ricoteers would be interested as well. · Dec 30 at 1:34pm
Thanks. I appreciate your sincerity, despite the fact we differ. Your offer is tempting, but I am going to have to decline--not on such a public forum. It would be uncomfortable for me. I appreciate it though.
The answer to Karen's question is No, I did not. Serving overseas drastically changed my whole mindset on our foreign policy.
May '10
Re: You Like Ron Paul, Except on Foreign Policy
Larry Koler
It's the atypical aspect that I object to here not the wimps. But "whiner" (which was my term) -- surely your experience can confirm that type.
Yes, there are bad apples in every bunch, and certainly there are a few whiners in the military. In my experience, these rare whiners are really the freeloaders of society, and they are completely incapable of taking care of themselves, never mind donating money to a political campaign.
At some point, you will have to except that many American Veterans are feeling less and less proud about their military service--the purpose and role--and that sentiment deserves some serious, thoughtful attention, not the belittlement you have offered so far.
May '10
Re: You Like Ron Paul, Except on Foreign Policy
I don't think it's our job to clean up the entire world. I would die willingly for America. Dying for another land, to supposedly make them free (though probably not) when they detest my presence is not a satisfying sacrifice. I'm a patriot, not a nationalist (Orwell's distinction was a good one, I think)
Jun '10
Re: You Like Ron Paul, Except on Foreign Policy
Brandon Zaffini
...
Yes, there are bad apples in every bunch, and certainly there are a few whiners in the military. In my experience, these rare whiners are really the freeloaders of society, and they are completely incapable of taking care of themselves, never mind donating money to a political campaign.
...
You seem to be confused by my criticism of Paul. You keep trying to take this personally and you want to defend the soldiers in the video. My simple point is that these few soldiers are probably not representative of anything close to a majority of soldiers or even a large minority.
All I am saying is that I am skeptical of them being very representative.
But, please admit that if someone wanted to misrepresent soldiers that he could always find some soldiers to support whatever position he wants to lie about and claim implicitly (as Paul is doing here) that they are representative.
Now, they might be representative -- it's possible. But, I'm skeptical. And Paul does nothing to allay this skepticism. This is done exactly like Michael Moore does things. Why doesn't Paul do the hard work of polling the military?
He doesn't want to.
Jun '10
Re: You Like Ron Paul, Except on Foreign Policy
Antipodius: This is my first comment on ricochet.
...
Welcome to Ricochet. Thanks for joining this discussion.
Antipodius: This is my first comment on ricochet.
I will be honest and express that I am alarmed by the content of Ron Paul's message and his ideas. To understand the motivation of AQ I would suggest you read "The Al Qaeda Reader" by Raymond Ibrahim which translates AQ messages to the muslim people, western presence in muslim lands is the excuse for jihad, the end goal is the elimination of the west. To truly understand the "blowback" of US non intervention I recommend "Mao -the untold story" by Jung Chang.. 75 million dead Chinese and the sequelae of Maoism worldwide don't matter?
...
I really agree with your recommendation for Yung Chang's book about Mao. Her (and her co-author's) portrayal is absolutely chilling. He was a monster. Communists seem to specialize in promoting the most evil guy in the room, don't they?
It's very interesting how instrumental Stalin was in keeping Mao in positions of power during the crucial early years of his evil reign. As Chang says, Communism in China was an externally instituted takeover.
Dec '11
Re: You Like Ron Paul, Except on Foreign Policy
I don't think it's our job to clean up the entire world. I would die willingly for America. Dying for another land, to supposedly make them free (though probably not) when they detest my presence is not a satisfying sacrifice. I'm a patriot, not a nationalist (Orwell's distinction was a good one, I think) · Dec 30 at 5:15pm
I agree that you shouldn't be cleaning up the entire world. I would suggest that the US intervene in areas where it has a national interest or has allies who need assistance. The question should always be whether the sacrifice of American blood is in her national interest or those of her allies. In the recent American military expeditions (Iraq/Afghanistan) there has been enough local and international vocal resistance to make you think that you are unwanted. Would your opinion have been changed if you had encountered more people vocally supporting the US endeavors? What justifies US foreign intervention... local popular opinion,domestic popular opinion, national security and economic interests, judeo-christian morality, interests of allies? Ron Paul has not been clear about this at all.
Dec '11
Re: You Like Ron Paul, Except on Foreign Policy
As an Australian I will simply say this. We have been with you in Korea, Vietnam, Rwanda, Afghanistan, and Iraq- this is how we have attempted to show our thanks for the sacrifice of your men and materiel in protecting us against Imperial Japan. Our nation has a proud military history, and we honour our military as a country with heartfelt gratitude across the board.We understand all too clearly, that there are nations in this region that would eat us up militarily (at great cost to themselves mind you.. we are a stroppy lot), without your assistance. Withdrawal from the world by the US would cost us possibly everything. This is the blowback that I have not seen addressed.
Dennis Prager has often mentioned (and I paraphrase) that a strong friend who will not intervene on your behalf when you are confronted by a bully stronger than yourself is not a friend. This is especially true where we have contributed to the friend's endeavours across the globe.
Jul '11
Re: You Like Ron Paul, Except on Foreign Policy
Antipodius, the same yanks who told you that port Moresby would not fall and met you at the end of the Kokada trail at Buna and Gona in the Papua/New Guinea campaign will always stand by your country. The US will always be your strong friend as long as we have strength.
Aug '10
Re: You Like Ron Paul, Except on Foreign Policy
Actually, Ron Paul has been quite clear, especially in the current campaign - nothing justifies US military intervention. He shares the same opinion regarding 9/11 as Jeremiah Wright - the US brought it upon ourselves.
He would work to abrogate all of the US commitments to allies across the world and reduce the US military to pre-WW1 levels (both in numbers and capabilities).
While I would vote for a syphilitic camel over Barack Obama in 2012, Ron Paul doesn't even meet that test.
Dec '10
Re: You Like Ron Paul, Except on Foreign Policy
Instugator:
... I am of the opinion that our mil budgets have been reduced too far...
We surely need a lot more of those F-22 thingies, some more of those boats with an airport on the top, and can you ever really have too many Marines?