Why are my most soundly right wing friends gay?
On this week's Radio Free Delingpole I discuss with fellow Brit - and biographer of Pat Buchanan - Tim Stanley one of the issues that has always puzzled me about US conservatism: why is it so antipathetical towards homosexuals?
Stanley has been at CPAC and noted an example of this in a recent blog post at Telegraph blogs.
Strolling down a hotel corridor, I found Fred Karger sitting alone on top of a desk. Mr Karger is a candidate for President but you probably won’t have heard of him. His problem isn’t a lack of money or talent – he’s been ignored by the national GOP because he’s gay. He's currently filing a complaint that claims CPAC denied him a booth from which to distribute literature because of his sexuality. He was upbeat and bright – very charming, too – but he looked a little hurt.
This strikes me as odd. Worse, it plays into the enemy's hands. Not only does it enable liberals to go on promulgating the meme that conservatives hate minorities but it alienates what ought to be a natural constituency. Of the five most hardcore, ideologically pure, articulate, uber-conservative friends I have in Britain, every one of them is homosexual. Don't ask me why: I leave it to you guys to come up with some ingenious overarching theory. All I know is that for the conservative movement not to reach out to its natural friends in the world of gay (sorry: I just could bring myself to use the phrase "gay community". It's the sort of phrase which makes my right-wing gay friends vomit) seems as short sighted, as, say, not welcoming blacks or Hispanics.
(Oh, btw, I apologize in advance for the sound quality of this week's Radio Free Delingpole. We had some glitches with the mic. If we can't tweak the sound quality to the right level I may have to do a re-record with Tim. It was such a good show it would be a darned shame not to have our words of wisdom preserved for posterity)
Update: the podcast is live here.
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May '10
Re: Why are my most soundly right wing friends gay?
Ever since the sin that dare not speak its name became the sin that won't shut up there are those of us who wistfully look back to those bygone days when gays pretended to be straight and straights pretended to believe them.
@Claire: prefers discussing gays, or prefers discussing sex? I can't recall that either have crowded out the discourse. In the terra incognita of the College Feed maybe?
Nov '10
Re: Why are my most soundly right wing friends gay?
Percival:
The love that once upon a blessed time dared not speak its name is now the love that won't shut the hell up about itself. · 16 minutes ago
An astute observation. I think the reason for the transformation is two-fold.
First, as an historically persecuted minority, gays have an axe to grind. I think this explains the "in your face" nature of much "gay pride" activity. Gay activists know that their style of self-promotion makes those who object to them uncomfortable; but they revel in the fact that it does. It's a form of revenge, driven by resentment. This strikes me as perfectly understandable.
That said, not all gays are gay activitists, nor feel this way. I suspect only a minority do.
Second, homosexuality is a cause for others to champion. Those others are, of course, left-liberals. They account, I submit, for most of the clamour surrounding gay rights. 2.5% of the population couldn't do it alone.
Homosexuals do have legitimate grievances. The bigotry evident towards them outside of Western society is evil. Unfortunately, their cause has been most vocally co-opted by left-liberals seeking to implement a misguided broader agenda.
Mar '11
Re: Why are my most soundly right wing friends gay?
Samuel -- no harm, no foul. You might have even picked it up from Andrew's retweeting of the various attacks made on him. He takes a perverse joy in sharing just how much flak he takes.
Nov '11
Re: Why are my most soundly right wing friends gay?
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
Well, you know, everyone says that, but evidence shows that pretty much everyone on Ricochet prefers discussing this issue to all others. · 5 minutes ago
It's brought up then we say, why do we even need to know? It's a 'rights' agenda. Unless the person truly is a friend it's just too much information on many different levels. Take blacks: they have concerns as a 'group' but the solutions are the same for them as anyone else. With more liberty most of the political problems go away. On the social level, people are glad that gays aren't tormented and can be more honest and open, but don't have to agree with the rest of it. That is a leftist tactic and James should recognize this from his own experience.
Re: Why are my most soundly right wing friends gay?
I totally agree with those of you for whom the deal-breaker is "People who define themselves by their sexuality." This is classic leftist identity politics. And it's no coincidence that of all the gay friends I mentioned, not one of them plays this game. Political, in-your-face homosexuality is, you might say, one massive pain in the bum. I have similar problems with black people who define themselves by their skin color. One of THE main reasons I'm a conservative is precisely because we don't judge people by their color, race, creed, sexuality, etc. We judge them by their actions: and we really DO believe in equality of opportunity. (But not of outcome...)
Re: Why are my most soundly right wing friends gay?
Btw - I too share you massive disappointment with the way Andrew Sullivan has gone. My suspicion is that he was never a real conservative in the first place. He was at best a RINO.
Re: Why are my most soundly right wing friends gay?
Nick Stuart:
@Claire: prefers discussing gays, or prefers discussing sex? I can't recall that either have crowded out the discourse. In the terra incognita of the College Feed maybe? · 20 minutes ago
Any thread concerning homosexuality is pretty much guaranteed to generate a disproportionate amount of interest here. (Check the "Most Active" view for data on this; I'm not just making this up.) For people who don't want to talk about it, Ricochet really, really wants to talk about it.
Not that I have a problem with that.
Nov '11
Re: Why are my most soundly right wing friends gay?
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
Well, you know, everyone says that, but evidence shows that pretty much everyone on Ricochet prefers discussing this issue to all others. · 53 minutes ago
I confess to avoiding the gay marriage conversations like the plague. Are the extremely long dialogues regarding this generally participated in by large numbers of Ricochet members, or is it just a few people who make tons of posts?
May '10
Re: Why are my most soundly right wing friends gay?
James, I think your question simply comes down to coalition politics. There's some chunk of the conservative coalition in the US that isn't all that bent out of shape about homosexuality and would probably embrace Mr. Karger so long as he was openly small government, pro-military, etc. However, there's also a huge chunk of the conservative coalition that have clear problems with homosexuality as a moral issue and want little association with those who are openly gay. The former don't care enough about the issue to risk damaging the coalition over it, so they simply acquiesce on the issue to the latter.
Edited on Feb 12 at 7:11amMar '11
Re: Why are my most soundly right wing friends gay?
Mothership_Greg
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
Well, you know, everyone says that, but evidence shows that pretty much everyone on Ricochet prefers discussing this issue to all others. · 53 minutes ago
I confess to avoiding the gay marriage conversations like the plague. Are the extremely long dialogues regarding this generally participated in by large numbers of Ricochet members, or is it just a few people who make tons of posts? · 10 minutes ago
When I saw Claire's response, I wondered if I comment on these kind of threads a lot. Maybe I do -- I don't remember being all that noisy on the topic.
Guess I'll just sit in the corner and sulk.
[There was going to be a picture of a sulking chimp here, but the embed function is still hosed. EJ Hill hardest hit.]
Apr '11
Re: Why are my most soundly right wing friends gay?
Now that we've settled that (barring the "massive"), let's stop talking about us and talk about the subject of this post: you, viz., "Why are my most soundly right wing friends gay?".
...you load 16 tons,and what do you get?
May '10
Re: Why are my most soundly right wing friends gay?
Grendel
When the Right didn't fall for the ploy, he found his natural company on the Left as a "gay man"; he didn't mind dumping the "Catholic" and "Conservative", which the Left would not tolerate.
Actually, I don't think he dropped the "conservative" label. He held on to it and used it to become the "token conservative" at every far left media outlet he could, during which he would harp on about how 'even as a conservative' he was opposed to every conservative position under the sun.
Oct '10
Re: Why are my most soundly right wing friends gay?
To go further, prior to the '60s, sex was accepted by Christians and conservatives as a heterosexual practice within marriage. Otherwise, sex outside of marriage was undesirable, based upon Biblical admonitions towards faithfulness.
Fornication was defined as having sexual relations of any kind outside of marriage. First the idea of heterosexual fornication was normalized, to our great shame, and is now considered desirable among many. In fact, what I am saying now will be met with great approbation.
Later, homosexual fornication followed. The left, of course, embraces it. The troglodyte Christian and conservative community haven't yet caught up.
The issue is the same for both homosexual and heterosexual, sex outside of the bonds of matrimony.
Until God amends the Scriptures, we will continue to have problems with the normalization of fornication.
That being said, the only view I can take is that not knowing anything about your sex life is good.
continued...
Oct '10
Re: Why are my most soundly right wing friends gay?
...continuing
For most of my friends, I know nothing about their sexual life and practice, and therefor have no opinions. Those who want to stick their sex life in the public arena, either by promoting open marriages, cohabitation or sex on street corners, whether straight or gay, they are telling me a great deal about who they are. It is that knowledge against which I stand.
Heterosexuals have throughout time fallen into fornication. Homosexuals are no different on that score.
It is keeping a public scoreboard in lights that is the indicator of a dieing culture.
Sep '10
Re: Why are my most soundly right wing friends gay?
I do not think in terms of people as groups, and this, I suspect, is why I I don't quite belong anywhere. And you know what? I'm cool with that. Makes me stronger. Clearer-headed. Open. I despise the gay left agenda—especially as practiced by women because it's a march toward conformity, submissiveness, and group think. (Parallel track: American feminism is, to my mind, fixated on materialism and not the material quality of the lives of women and children in the rest of the world; they are my concern.) On the other hand, neither do I appreciate hearing that genuine love in my lifetime has literally hurt others—one wonders how they are able to get out of bed, what what the ubiquity of murder, theft, lying, and moral cowardice in addition to the love life of total strangers. Also, heterosexuals can be extremely blind to how much they assert their own sexuality while being put off by the same conversation in a homosexual context. The media fixates on the celebrity and sex part; your average gay person usually doesn't (confusing gayness with gay pride parades is like confusing the church with Mardi Gras parades).
Apr '11
Re: Why are my most soundly right wing friends gay?
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
Any thread concerning homosexuality is pretty much guaranteed to generate a disproportionate amount of interest here. (Check the "Most Active" view for data on this; I'm not just making this up.) For people who don't want to talk about it, Ricochet really,reallywants to talk about it.
Not that I have a problem with that. · 41 minutes ago
Except to the degree that Gaby's "I'm gay: Discuss" post personalized the issue, I don't think that any of those discussions have been about individuals. SSM? Huge issue here. The sexuality of anyone in specific? Much, much less so. Even Callista Gingrich's desire to be part of an open marriage didn't raise much discussion. Having an interest in policy, jurisprudence, and theology while lacking interest in gutter gossip strikes me as all to the good.
One happy moment on the 2008 Romney campaign involved a prominent adviser being "outed", to the response that he and his boyfriend were friends of the campaign, in addition to the professional relationship. The campaign was not interested in anyone's sexuality, but was very interested in, for example, the defense of marriage. Right and proper.
Aug '11
Re: Why are my most soundly right wing friends gay?
I am not willing to grant minority status to someone based on who they like to have sex with.
I'm also surprised why people who describe themselves as gay would support a political party -- Democrats -- who wouldn't blink an eye if they were eradicated. Consider that the discovery of a "gay gene" would create a ready-made pro-life constituency among homosexuals. If even Planned Parenthood worries about gender-based abortions, imagine the uproar if women started aborting babies upon learning that their unborn children carried the "gay gene."
Apr '11
Re: Why are my most soundly right wing friends gay?
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
Well, you know, everyone says that, but evidence shows that pretty much everyone on Ricochet prefers discussing this issue to all others. · 2 hours ago
Claire, I don't mean to pick on you, but I favorably see you as a salon grande dame of sorts . . .
Gay marrigae's animating force is not most gays, but radical leftists - in this case the LGBT community. It's on a larger trophy hunt of which gay marriage is just tactically opportunistic game.
Their big prize is simply overturn of all traditional values, mores, and institutions.
The 9th circuit just overturned a democratically approved referendum in California concerning gay marriage. Gay marriage is being forced on America, in this case by the Judiciary over the actual voice and vote of a majority of Californians.
Not a preferred topic for Ricochet?
For those familiar with Dennis Prager, I love his line: "Prefer clarity to agreement." I read your comment as alluding to insincerity. Would you agree that unfairly muddies the water in a topic worthy of discussion?
Edited on Feb 12 at 8:19amNov '11
Re: Why are my most soundly right wing friends gay?
Well said.
Nov '11
Re: Why are my most soundly right wing friends gay?
Mothership_Greg
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
Well, you know, everyone says that, but evidence shows that pretty much everyone on Ricochet prefers discussing this issue to all others. · 53 minutes ago
I confess to avoiding the gay marriage conversations like the plague. Are the extremely long dialogues regarding this generally participated in by large numbers of Ricochet members, or is it just a few people who make tons of posts? · 2 hours ago
I rarely post on this topic either (second one, here though!). I consider homosexuality a non-issue politically (rights) but it is open to discussion on the social/philosophical/religious side. I don't comment on the social side because it's not one of my main interests to put it lightly (but neither is legalizing marijuana) and the arguments for mainstream homosexuality are so weak (I mean, what do you even call it-pro homosexuality?).I think James' topic was really, 'I am not a bigot, racist, red neck, homophobe as a conservative/republican/Christian'. I do fight this battle sometimes and refuse to say it before stating a position.