Why Not Ban Muslim Immigration?
In 2009, 115,000 persons from Muslim countries were granted permanent residency status in the United States. Hundreds of thousands more were issued visitor's or student visas - and no one knows how many of those have overstayed and gone underground.
The Bush and Obama administrations have made much of the numerous domestic terror conspiracies they've uncovered over the past ten years. But those conspiracies wouldn't have been hatched within our borders if we hadn't let Islamists come here in the first place.
What possible benefit accrues to the people of the United States from Muslim immigration that could outweigh the risk that some portion of those immigrants will be covert Islamist terrorists or persons who, having taken advantage of our hospitality, will be radicalized in American mosques? How long until we have Islamist radicals staging protests in our own streets?
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Comments :
Jan '11
Re: Why Not Ban Muslim Immigration?
I agree with those that advocate that what is good for this country should determine entrance.Restricting immigration and work/study visas from Muslum countries but treat minorities within those countries (persecuted Christions, Jews, true moderates - sources that have helped our military & intelligence agencies) for special consideration. Anyones wife/sister/daughter that shows up for a hearing in a sheet - sorry. Any guy shows up for hearing with the beard & pajamas - sorry.
Oct '10
Re: Why Not Ban Muslim Immigration?
Kenneth, but not all Islamic radicals are going to be Arab. Some could be Swede. You should certainly fear Swedish supermodels; if everyone trusts Swedes implicitly, isn't that a perfect oppurtunity for terrorists?
Edited on May 10, 2011 at 4:37pmJul '10
Re: Why Not Ban Muslim Immigration?
Joseph Stanko
That horse has already bolted, see: DS-156: Nonimmigrant Visa Application
Though the question about enforcement is a good one. I'd love to know if anyone has ever actually answered yes... · May 10 at 4:31pm
Members of any foreign Communist party were also excluded.
Jul '10
Re: Why Not Ban Muslim Immigration?
Joseph Eagar: Kenneth, but not all Islamic radicals are going to be Arab. Some could be Swede. You should certainly fear Swedish supermodels; if everyone trusts Swedes implicitly, isn't that a perfect oppurtunity for terrorists? · May 10 at 4:35pm
Now you're just being silly.
Jun '10
Re: Why Not Ban Muslim Immigration?
Diane Ellis, Ed.
I don't view fellow American born citizens in terms of their utility to society (which sounds like a part Peter Singer, part Joseph Stalin exercise to me). And it's hard for me to view immigrants in utilitarian terms when, if it were up to them, they'd have been born American too. · May 10 at 2:28pm
It's not a matter of utility, but rather a question of compatibility. My own terms would be far more stringent than even Kenneth suggests:
A. Genetic screening.
B. IQ test.
C. Evaluation based on skills and education.
D. A psychological profile to weed out grifters, criminal types, the morally suspect and those with divided loyalties.
We need to be highly selective in our approach to immigration. We have enough domestic parasites (and that includes criminals ranging from crime bosses to welfare cheats); we don't need to import more of them from elsewhere. The world is populated by a vast horde of people who are poor, ignorant and fatalistic. We no longer need unskilled laborers. We need technicians and engineers. All others need not apply.
Jul '10
Re: Why Not Ban Muslim Immigration?
Diane Ellis, Ed.
Kenneth, throughout this thread you've been talking about people as groups, not individuals. For instance, you said you wouldn't make exceptions in your immigration policy for Egypt's Copts, or Lebanese Christians, or Christian Kurds simply because they come from Muslim countries.
But here, you present the example of your wife, who is an individual, not a group. Were I to say that Russians hardly share in our Judeo-Christian values (after all, they were state mandated atheists for 70 some-odd years) and therefore have no business coming to America, I'm sure you'd object. · May 10 at 4:33pm
And guess what? Most Russians, throughout the Soviet era, still quietly celebrated Christmas and Easter.
Mar '11
Re: Why Not Ban Muslim Immigration?
This country has, by Mark Steyn's count, no less than *47* different immigration pathways. This is why "fast track" for Saudi citizens continued for years *after* 911.
It all needs to be swept away, and replaced with a simple immigration policy. I propose the following as the main planks:
1: All citizens of the world are eligible to become American citizens if they:
a: Have fluent command of the English language (Excellent score on TOEFL)
b: Have at least a 4 year college degree
c: Demonstrate that they have never taken welfare or equivalents
d: Have a spotless criminal record
e: Pass a *real* citizenship test (equivalent to a grade 3 on the AP US History)
g: Practise a religion that accepts equal treatment for all peoples, regardless of religious affiliation
That ought to do the trick. All of Europe's hard working elite would flood our shores, bringing vast human capital.
Oct '10
Re: Why Not Ban Muslim Immigration?
Kenneth
Joseph Eagar: Kenneth, but not all Islamic radicals are going to be Arab. Some could be Swede. You should certainly fear Swedish supermodels; if everyone trusts Swedes implicitly, isn't that a perfect oppurtunity for terrorists? · May 10 at 4:35pm
Now you're just being silly. · May 10 at 4:38pm
Am I? Would these restrictions have prevented 9/11? If I remember right, the 9/11 terrorists flew in from Europe. Tell me, if terrorists can circumvent these restrictions so easily, what purpose do they have?
Re: Why Not Ban Muslim Immigration?
Kenneth
Nyadnar17: I don't want the federal government screening people based on their philosophical beliefs. That seems rife for abuse.
Its a violation of the separation of church and state. Our government is constitutionally mandated to be religiously neutral. Banning people from entry into the country based on religious belief, as oppose to being an actual member of a political organization, seems unconstitutional.
No, we have every legal right to ban immigration from specific countries. We've done it before. · May 10 at 9:25am
We have nearly always been picky, and we always will be.
Mar '11
Re: Why Not Ban Muslim Immigration?
And to audit these applications, the government could contract it out to all the accountants and IRS auditors who will be jobless once we pass the long-awaited flat tax.
A man can dream. :-)
Edited on May 10, 2011 at 4:51pmJul '10
Re: Why Not Ban Muslim Immigration?
When my wife was accepted into dental studies at the University of Pennsylvania, there was a picnic for the incoming class. Among them were two Jordanians and a Saudi.
I engaged the three of them in conversation. Uniformly, they expressed their hatred for America and their admiration for Osama Bin Laden.
But also to a man, they said their aim was to marry an American woman and gain citizenship.
Now, they probably would never have become actual terrorists. But why would we want them here?
Apr '11
Re: Why Not Ban Muslim Immigration?
Kenneth
Dan IV
Kenneth
Joseph Eagar: Kenneth, Islamists do not need to emigrate; they can infect a Muslim community from afar. Remember, all they need is to radicalize a minority--the rest will fall into line due to social pressure an fear; Islamists are very good at that.
Immigration restrictions will accomplish nothing, not in the era of the Internet. We need to devise effect strategies to fight back against the Islamists, and protect our domestic Muslim communities from religious exploitation (preferably in a non-governmental way). · May 10 at 4:11pm
They can't bomb a shopping mall over the Internet. · May 10 at 4:17pm
Yes they can. Don't assume all terrorists are from Muslim countries...
Yeah, I lie awake nights quaking for fear of those terrorist cells of Swedish supermodels. · May 10 at 4:28pm
I never said they weren't Muslims. There are thousands or radical Muslims in places like Europe. Remember the burning suburbs in Paris?
Jul '10
Re: Why Not Ban Muslim Immigration?
Joseph Eagar
Kenneth
Joseph Eagar: Kenneth, but not all Islamic radicals are going to be Arab. Some could be Swede. You should certainly fear Swedish supermodels; if everyone trusts Swedes implicitly, isn't that a perfect oppurtunity for terrorists? · May 10 at 4:35pm
Now you're just being silly. · May 10 at 4:38pm
Am I? Would these restrictions have prevented 9/11? If I remember right, the 9/11 terrorists flew in from Europe. Tell me, if terrorists can circumvent these restrictions so easily, what purpose do they have? · May 10 at 4:48pm
They weren't European citizens. They traveled on Middle Eastern passports.
Jun '10
Re: Why Not Ban Muslim Immigration?
Kenneth
Michael Horn
Again I'll ask, "what benefits do we get as a country, by allowing Muslims to immigrate here?" · May 10 at 9:28am
That should be the question we ask about all immigrants. · May 10 at 9:32am
So, not a fan of the libertarian approach to immigration?
"Crossing an international border to support your family and pursue dreams of a better life is not an inherently criminal act like rape or robbery. If it were, then most of us descend from criminals."
"When large numbers of otherwise decent people routinely violate a law, the law itself is probably the problem."
"Immigration is not the only area of American life where a misguided law has collided with reality. In the 1920s and '30s, Prohibition turned millions of otherwise law-abiding Americans into lawbreakers and spawned an underworld of moon-shining, boot-legging and related criminal activity. (Sound familiar?) We eventually made the right choice to tax and regulate alcohol rather than prohibit it."
Jul '10
Re: Why Not Ban Muslim Immigration?
Dan IV
Kenneth
Dan IV
Kenneth
Joseph Eagar: Kenneth, Islamists do not need to emigrate; they can infect a Muslim community from afar. Remember, all they need is to radicalize a minority--the rest will fall into line due to social pressure an fear; Islamists are very good at that.
Immigration restrictions will accomplish nothing, not in the era of the Internet. We need to devise effect strategies to fight back against the Islamists, and protect our domestic Muslim communities from religious exploitation (preferably in a non-governmental way). · May 10 at 4:11pm
They can't bomb a shopping mall over the Internet. · May 10 at 4:17pm
Yes they can. Don't assume all terrorists are from Muslim countries...
Yeah, I lie awake nights quaking for fear of those terrorist cells of Swedish supermodels. · May 10 at 4:28pm
I never said they weren't Muslims. There are thousands or radical Muslims in places like Europe. Remember the burning suburbs in Paris? · May 10 at 4:52pm
Yeah, right. Just because there might be exceptions, let's just leave the door wide open. There were 115,000 immigrants from Muslim countries - 'nuff said.
Jul '10
Re: Why Not Ban Muslim Immigration?
Joseph Stanko
Kenneth
Michael Horn
Again I'll ask, "what benefits do we get as a country, by allowing Muslims to immigrate here?" · May 10 at 9:28am
That should be the question we ask about all immigrants. · May 10 at 9:32am
So, not a fan of the libertarian approach to immigration?
"Crossing an international border to support your family and pursue dreams of a better life is not an inherently criminal act like rape or robbery. If it were, then most of us descend from criminals."
"When large numbers of otherwise decent people routinely violate a law, the law itself is probably the problem."
"Immigration is not the only area of American life where a misguided law has collided with reality. In the 1920s and '30s, Prohibition turned millions of otherwise law-abiding Americans into lawbreakers and spawned an underworld of moon-shining, boot-legging and related criminal activity. (Sound familiar?) We eventually made the right choice to tax and regulate alcohol rather than prohibit it." · May 10 at 4:54pm
Unless you're a doctrinaire fanatic, libertarianism ends at the water's edge.
Oct '10
Re: Why Not Ban Muslim Immigration?
Kenneth
Yeah, right. Just because there might be exceptions, let's just leave the door wide open. There were 115,000 immigrants from Muslim countries - 'nuff said. · May 10 at 4:55pm
And I suppose each and every one was an Islamist?
Aug '10
Re: Why Not Ban Muslim Immigration?
Kenneth
Now you're just being silly. · May 10 at 4:38pm
As I have observed before ,the boxes within boxes tends to caricature the argument.
But as I reread the entire post and arguments, which is wonderfully provocative, I realized the photo that Kenneth used was in error because it doesn't exemplify a Steynian disaster in America as aptly as it does in England. England has, in a guilt-ridden fit, accepted all of her former colonies riff raff without any notion of suitability.
No one got the message when the Moluccans revolted against the Dutch in country (1977) and reminded them of something that everyone, except the Moluccans ,had forgot.
Imagine a million Congolese inside of Belgium on the occasion of the anniversary of King Leopold's birth going out and cutting the feet off of their hosts .
That is the dichotomy Europe faces and the one that Mark Steyn extrapolates for our benefit.
All Kenneth had to do was get the picture of Omeed Aziz Popal instead.
Re: Why Not Ban Muslim Immigration?
In 2001, I taught at the University of Tulsa. On 9/11, the Arabs at that institution, largely from the U. A. E., ran through the halls cheering when the Twin Towers fell.
Kenneth has raised an important question. I am not in favor of closing our borders to Muslims, much less to Christians from the Middle East. But we need to be careful whom we let in, and we need to be quick to deport anyone who causes trouble. Let me add that I would be happy to have that last policy applied to all of those who come here from abroad. Joining us is a privilege, not a right.
What do we gain from Muslims and Christians from the Middle East? Linguistic expertise and local knowledge pertinent to places of interest to us -- that is one thing. Is there anything else? Well, they work hard. They really do. I have had a great deal of contact over the years with such communities in this country. For six years, I was married to a nominally Muslim Turk.
We need to be picky, and we have every right to be so. It is a matter of self-defense.
Apr '11
Re: Why Not Ban Muslim Immigration?
Kenneth
Dan IV
I never said they weren't Muslims. There are thousands or radical Muslims in places like Europe. Remember the burning suburbs in Paris? · May 10 at 4:52p
m
Yeah, right. Just because there might be exceptions, let's just leave the door wide open. There were 115,000 immigrants from Muslim countries - 'nuff said. · May 10 at 4:55pm
I'm just saying that this wouldn't be a particularly effective reform because there are so many Muslims that can get around it via Europe. There are huge numbers of Muslims in Europe and a lot of them are already pretty radical. And any immigration restrictions against determined opponents are basically meaningless given the great big hole in our southern border.