Why Good People Do Bad Things
On the Cato Institute's brand new libertarianism.org, they have a video of an interesting talk by Stanford psychiatrist Philip Zimbardo about The Lucifer Effect, which is his term for the phenomenon of good people doing bad things. His scholarship started with the Stanford Prison Study, in which the psychological effects of prison were simulated on prisoners and prison guards, and was reinvigorated in the wake of the Abu Ghraib abuses, where otherwise good people committed some pretty horrible acts. His conclusion is that people should always be held accountable for their actions, but that their environment is a large factor in whether they commit bad acts in the first place. The whole video is worth watching, and I'd love to discuss anything about the subject, but two things really stuck out to me: the dangers of uniform and the misallocation of heroes.
One of Zimbardo's interesting studies is one that looked at the relationship between torture/mutilation and war decoration in tribes. He found that tribes that decorated themselves were much more likely to torture and mutilate victims than were tribes that didn't practice that formality. He drew the conclusion that one of the factors that leads people to commit atrocities is the ability to transform into something else through physical appearance, like Dr. Jekyll.
One of my good friends was a Naval officer, and I once asked him what he thought of wearing uniforms. He said that uniforms were a great way for him to leave work at work; there were things he did for the Navy that he would never do for anyone else, and when he took off his uniform it was like he was leaving a different person behind.
Now, this isn't to say he or any other soldier was a monster at work - I don't think he's capable of being anything less than a gentleman - but I do think he acted in a certain role, and that the environment he was in shaped the way he viewed situations. Similarly, while the way a soldier acts on the battlefield is fine on the battlefield, it becomes problematic if practiced by another entity, like the police force. This is one reason that SWAT team practice for drug raids bothers me. The Atlantic had an article a few days ago on the increasing militarization of police, and anyone that follows Radley Balko or has read his excellent book on the topic knows that the line between soldier and police officer can look pretty blurry. To Zimbardo's point, one worry is that when you put police officers in a situation that resembles that of soldiers, they'll naturally act that way. When you dress someone as a soldier in the "war on drugs" and escalate the situation with the assumption of force, you shouldn't be surprised if he acts like one (again, this isn't to say soldiers are monsters on the battlefield, just that there are different rules).
The second topic, heroes, relates to Zimbardo's prescription. He recommends that we emphasize everyday people who do extraordinary things, rather than extraordinary figures who live lives that are impossible to emulate, like Ghandi. I think he's spot on in that prescription, but I think we also go too much in the other direction: that we make heroes out of people that don't do extraordinary things. In the wake of 9/11 many people referred to the victims as heroes. While there certainly were heroes, such as firefighters and others who helped in the atrocity, you aren't a hero simply by virtue of being a victim. Likewise, in the environmental movement, recycling is "saving the planet", and giving blood is "saving a life." They're good things to do, but they're not heroic.
Luther's evening prayer ends with a plea that the "evil foe may have no power over me," and while usually I'm weary of language that shifts responsibility, I think the characterization of "the Devil made me do it" is fitting in so many of these cases. What do you think? Why do otherwise good people, like Joe Pa, do bad things?
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Re: Why Good People Do Bad Things
You know, I don't know the answers to these questions?
I think about them a great deal, however.
Feb '11
Re: Why Good People Do Bad Things
Who said we were 'good'? Shouldn't the question be 'why don't people do worse things', or 'what takes us so long [to do evil]'?
I assumed Christianity and classical liberalism had disabused us of the notion of 'good' people.
Edited on Nov 11, 2011 at 6:13amSep '10
Re: Why Good People Do Bad Things
Yes, Antiphon, they did, but humanism has brought the idea into vogue. I think the Anne Frank notion that people are basically good at heart is a grave folly that makes humans very very unhappy and not because of the major obviously bad things some people do but because of the small insensitivities that all people show toward others despite being basically loving persons.
Antiphon: ... I assumed Christianity and classical liberalism had disabused us of the notion of 'good' people. · Nov 11 at 6:11am
Edited on Nov 11 at 06:13 am
Dec '10
Re: Why Good People Do Bad Things
Whenever I walk in a room I look around, take a breath, and remind myself that 80% of the people in the room would torture a puppy to death just because a person in a lab coat asked them to. Whether you are an evolutionist or a creationist it's a known fact that deep down humans are scum bags.
That said I do greatly believe in the power of masks, uniforms, and social roles. Humans are social animals. A large part of our behavior and thought pattern is based on how people react to us and what they expect from us.
True words
Edited on Nov 11, 2011 at 6:43amMay '10
Re: Why Good People Do Bad Things
Our police and soldiers are both trained to use lethal force only when necessary. For soldiers, it's necessary a lot more often.
Of course, it's ultimately not as simple as good people versus bad people, but it's a failure of our modern culture that human nature is so commonly portrayed in shades of grey. There are indeed individuals who have devoted their lives to good and individuals who have succumbed to evil.
Only God knows how anyone became who he or she is. We don't even know ourselves that well. But knowing a person's general nature, however it developed, is obviously a pragmatic necessity.
Some suggest that everyone believes himself to be good. Nonsense. A person can be deluded, but we all know what it's like to do wrong willfully, in full awareness that the action is wrong. And delusions are often the result of habitual willfulness. Denial of the individual will is among the most devastating corruptions of our time.
Anyway, I agree completely with your paragraph about heroism; and about the influence of symbols.
Jul '10
Re: Why Good People Do Bad Things
"Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone." Luke 18:19
Sep '10
Re: Why Good People Do Bad Things
I could not agree more or have said it better, Aaron. This is a formulation I've come up with: People are not nearly so bad as they fear they are but not half as good as they claim to be.
May '10
Re: Why Good People Do Bad Things
All persons have moral blind spots. We each have more insight into some aspects of reality and some social considerations than into others. In fact, each personality includes signature weaknesses, as well as strengths. So we should not be surprised when someone is noble in one situation and ignoble in another, if the situations are unrelated.
Some people struggle with anger. Some struggle with lust. But it goes deeper than that. It also depends on who we are around and expectations. For example, I know someone who is generous beyond measure with money and his time, but is utterly selfish when at home with his family. He is very patient with the disabled and elderly, but dangerously impatient and callous while driving. Another person I know would never lecture someone about "moral" choices (as generally defined), but doesn't hesitate to lecture people about health choices.
It's difficult to hold ourselves to high standards all the time. Most people, I find, unconsciously (sometimes even consciously) set aside particular parts of their lives for indulgence. "Well, I'm unselfish in this, so I deserve freedom to be selfish in that."
Corruption is cumulative. Small habits lead to great evils.
Sep '10
Re: Why Good People Do Bad Things
Great argument for the need for God: because all people, however wise and kind, have moral failings, people can be good at advising each other on temporal issues but on eternal principles, not so much.
Aaron Miller: All persons have moral blind spots. We each have more insight into some aspects of reality and some social considerations than into others. In fact, each personality includes signature weaknesses, as well as strengths. ...
Some people struggle with anger. Some struggle with lust. But it ... also depends on who we are around and expectations. ... I know someone who is generous beyond measure with money and his time, but is utterly selfish when at home with his family. He is very patient with the disabled and elderly, but dangerously impatient and callous while driving. Another person I know would never lecture someone about "moral" choices (as generally defined), but doesn't hesitate to lecture people about health choices.
It's difficult to hold ourselves to high standards all the time. Most people, I find, unconsciously (sometimes even consciously) set aside particular parts of their lives for indulgence. ...
Corruption is cumulative. Small habits lead to great evils. · Nov 11 at 7:23am
May '10
Re: Why Good People Do Bad Things
One other thought before I have to go...
It's said that power corrupts. I disagree. Power does open opportunities for evil and amplify the effects of evil, but it really just feeds corruption already present within a person.
When I was a manager at a video rental store as a teenager, I saw coworkers (most of them... at two different stores) wave late fees for their friends and illicitly provide those friends with free rentals. They were doling out favors with the company's money. Politicians are often condemned for the same basic behavior. They help friends with taxpayer money.
The difference of scale between those two situations is significant. The effects of the politician's choice is far greater, and so the weight of his moral decision is as well. But the form of corruption is basically the same.
Many of the evils exhibited by tyrants throughout history are also exhibited commonly in everyday people. For example, denial of the inherent value of every human being enables genocide; it also enables abortion, pornography (treating someone like a piece of meat), and the political demonization we have become so accustomed to.
Oct '11
Re: Why Good People Do Bad Things
I heard Seth Liebsohn use this Michael Novak quote on Bennett's show this morning; it seems appropriate, at least, to the Penn State situation:
Our culture these days mocks virtue; furthermore, it does it in a way, through mass media, that one has to work hard to escape. Perhaps it's a miracle that things aren't worse.
As for the uniform, I'm sure it, like much of military training, enables ordinary, flawed, humans to act in ways necessary to war or policing - ways that are not normal to our society. Does it then let some of them go over the line? Maybe, but certainly most of them do what is necessary and no more, remove the uniform, and return to society more-or-less successfully. I think there has to be more at work than that.
Dec '10
Re: Why Good People Do Bad Things
"Guantanamo Bay abuses" - What Guantanamo Bay abuses?
Could you perhaps have meant Abu Ghraib?
Dec '10
Re: Why Good People Do Bad Things
Aaron Miller:
It's said that power corrupts. I disagree. Power does open opportunities for evil and amplify the effects of evil, but it really just feeds corruption already present within a person.
Unfortunately that doesn't seem to be true. Humans are social animals. How our peers react to us and what they expect of us change the way we think. Being in a position of power doesn't just allow for the possibility of being a bad person, it actually makes it harder to be a good person.
The moment you put a person in a position of power it literally becomes more difficult for that person to think about others points of view, make moral judgments about their own actions, see the limitations of their own abilities, feel empathy for others, and it makes it easier for them to lie.
Being in power is like living in a toxic waste dump for your morals. Thats why our leaders need our prayers, thats why they need us constantly checking up on them. They are not just fighting against lobbyist and the lure of compromise. They are also fighting against the corrosive effects of simply being in charge.
Dec '10
Re: Why Good People Do Bad Things
Reconsider your theory of abusive conduct at Guantanamo Bay by inspecting the way of life of the people a few miles down the road outside of its protective perimeter.
Reconsider the spurious claims of innocence of its detainees by investigating the background and intentions of their advocates.
Revisit the Geneva Convention’s reasoning on the wearing of uniforms and ask the thoughtful professor how to close with and engage unlawful combatants.
Ask the flock of libertarian sheep how they plan to resist the voracious appetites of nature’s predators without sheepdogs.
Oct '10
Re: Why Good People Do Bad Things
Nyadnar17
Aaron Miller:
It's said that power corrupts. I disagree. Power does open opportunities for evil and amplify the effects of evil, but it really just feeds corruption already present within a person.
Unfortunately that doesn't seem to be true.
The moment you put a person in a position of power it literally becomes more difficult for that person to think about others points of view, make moral judgments about their own actions, see the limitations of their own abilities, feel empathy for others, and it makes it easier for them to lie.
· Nov 11 at 8:15am
Power comes in all sizes. Even small power can be corrupted. The supervisor who abuses the employee, for instance. But having the power of a supervisor does not corrupt an honest person, per se. We make choices based on the foundation of truth in our lives.
There are some people who can actually approach incorruptibility, because they have the spiritual foundation to provide the strength necessary.
The rest of us come in all shades of spiritual strength, and had better beware of power. But, do not avoid it, accept it graciously depending on God to keep you above corruption.
Sep '10
Re: Why Good People Do Bad Things
I think it is farily easy to look at an institution or institutions and hypothesize as to why bad things happen and how they can be improved. But would it really be helpful in a Police raid to have the SWAT team trained and dressed as episcopal priests?
This whole line of argument reminds me of the view that all of reality is some sort of social construct that can be remade if we only wish it so. You can nibble around the edges of how to improve behavior at Gauntamamo [Abu Graib?], but when society acts to forcefully restrain violent men for the protection of the broader society, bad things will happen. Bad things will happen if you do nothing also. Worse things in fact.
Do what you can, but the main point of a prison is to keep the jailed inside. There are other considerations, but it should be understood by all that they are sidelines to the main objective.
Dec '10
Re: Why Good People Do Bad Things
raycon
Power comes in all sizes. Even small power can be corrupted. The supervisor who abuses the employee, for instance. But having the power of a supervisor does not corrupt an honest person, per se. We make choices based on the foundation of truth in our lives.
What bothers me is that studies seem to indicate that even the feeling of power, not even being in a position of power, but simply just imaging it, changes us. It doesn't just make it tougher to chose to do the right thing, it doesn't simply make it more difficult to know what the right thing is, it also makes it harder to even realize there is a moral choice to be made!
Its one of the reasons I support term limits. I fear that we take the best and brightest of us and send them to Washington with no concept of what we are actually doing to them as people.
Aug '10
Re: Why Good People Do Bad Things
I am unaware of documented abuses at Guantanamo. Are you referring to Abu Graib?
Oct '11
Re: Why Good People Do Bad Things
David Holtkamp: "Guantanamo Bay abuses" - What Guantanamo Bay abuses?
Could you perhaps have meant Abu Ghraib? · Nov 11 at 7:56am
Sorry, that's exactly what I meant. Even after ten read throughs I missed it (note to self: don't publish at 2 am after two homebrewed IPA's). Quite a day to make that mistake, eh?
Edited on Nov 11, 2011 at 12:52pmOct '11
Re: Why Good People Do Bad Things
Charles Gordon
Reconsider your theory of abusive conduct at Guantanamo Bay by inspecting the way of life of the people a few miles down the road outside of its protective perimeter.
I was reading about Guantanamo at the time and slipped; I meant Abu Ghraib. Sorry to wreck the premise behind your poetry.
Edited on Nov 11, 2011 at 11:47am