Why Are Most Liberals Wholly Unable to Even Articulate Conservative Viewpoints?
I've long held that I could, if I wished to, convince almost any liberal that I was liberal myself. So versed am I in their arguments, thinking and style that I believe I could infiltrate an Occupy Wall Street or Code Pink rally without any other attendee suspecting my sincerity. Even in those rare thoughtful and civil exchanges with someone on the other side of the aisle, I think I understand well their position and can articulate that to their satisfaction. I don't share their beliefs, of course, but I can state them in a way that they agree with.
What I find interesting is that the opposite is almost never true. Ask even a thoughtful liberal to characterize a conservative position on a topic and you'll usually get some silly strawman. This is not about truth or falsehood. Rather, it's an observation I've made about the Left's inability to state conservative positions in a reasonable way. Even when they try not to, they almost invariably represent the Right's arguments as cartoonish, ridiculous or simply stupid.
Why is this? If I choose to do so, I could step into their shoes and make their arguments for them. But they -- even the serious ones -- seem almost universally unable to do the same for me. Even if they don't conform to it, why can't liberals simply grasp an opposing worldview?
- Comment (84)
- · Quote
- · UnfollowFollow (10)
Comments:
Jun '10
Re: Why Are Most Liberals Wholly Unable to Even Articulate Conservative Viewpoints?
Ed G.
Larry Koler: (from #49)
This is easy to prove to yourself. Try investigating some crucial data point that they are wrong about, show them the correct data -- and then watch them change the subject, the crucial point having absolutely no effect on them even though before this one would have assumed that this was the sticking point. · 7 hours ago
That's because the underlying disagreements between liberals and conservatives (or even libertarians) aren't foremost about data - they're disagreements about morality and preference, e.g. the relationship between individual and community, between community and state, etc.
Yes, but don't forget that they still formulate their positions using a pretense at rational argument. They lose interest with reason based answers because their own arguments are ultimately not reason based but rationalizations. (Just like Jonathan Haidt says we all do -- but because of competing aspects of the his six moral bases Republicans do a better job of being persuadable.)
May '10
Re: Why Are Most Liberals Wholly Unable to Even Articulate Conservative Viewpoints?
William F. Buckley said it best:
But most of the time they don't really give other points of view the time of day. They even resort to complete denial.
When a key Democratic Party constituency takes a viewpoint contrary to the prevailing liberal dogma, they never acknowledge it (e.g. blacks on gay marriage, blue collar workers on environmentalism, &c.). With their fingers that deep in their ear holes, it's amazing that they can perceive anything at all.
I believe that many liberals believe in a self-contained narrative of the world (well, I think we all do but we respond differently). When they encounter facts that contradict the narrative (e.g. spending trillions you don't have during a credit crisis is stupid), they find them unbelievable and they are quickly ignored and forgotten. When conservatives encounter facts that contradict our narrative (e.g. US elects a tax-n-spend liberal president during a credit crisis!), we shrug our shoulders and accept that the world has lots of variety.
Nov '11
Re: Why Are Most Liberals Wholly Unable to Even Articulate Conservative Viewpoints?
Larry Koler
Ed G.
Larry Koler: (from #49)
This is easy to prove to yourself. Try investigating some crucial data point that they are wrong about, show them the correct data -- and then watch them change the subject, the crucial point having absolutely no effect on them even though before this one would have assumed that this was the sticking point. · 7 hours ago
Yes, but don't forget that they still formulate their positions using a pretense at rational argument. They lose interest with reason based answers because their own arguments are ultimately not reason based but rationalizations. (Just like Jonathan Haidt says we all do -- but because of competing aspects of the his six moral bases Republicans do a better job of being persuadable.) · 2 hours ago
This sounds right to me, based on experience. No one likes to admit that they are wrong, but Leftists (not liberals), REFUSE to acknowledge when they are wrong on a point of fact (and attempt to change the subject, even if the point of fact in question was central to some strawman argument they were vomiting onto Facebook, e.g. "All Republicans blah blah blah fill in the blank")
Oct '11
Re: Why Are Most Liberals Wholly Unable to Even Articulate Conservative Viewpoints?
nick: ... Since beliefs cannot be justified, they say, it is pointless to try ... In place of reasons is mere commitment. What matters to the left is that they really believe what leftists believe. ... Little surprise, then, that typical lefties would have difficulty explaining beliefs---even their own.
For the irrationalist, what makes a belief believable is that one prefers it. For the leftist, leftist beliefs are, by definition, preferable. ...
Hi, Nick. Nice to meet someone who gets it. There're a few others around here as well, but they don't comment much.
The mind is a model, not a reasoning machine. Even reason and logic, on the few occasions any of us practice them, are simulations of the set theory a good mind abstracts from its perceptions.
Sep '11
Re: Why Are Most Liberals Wholly Unable to Even Articulate Conservative Viewpoints?
I think Sowell had it on the money - with liberals favoring intentions and conservatives favoring outcomes.The liberal has many factors influencing them to choose intentions. They are more simple to articulate, they appeal to obvious sentiments, and they are 'acceptable' positions for 'civilized' and 'intelligent' and 'compassionate' people to take.It takes a little more logic and critical thinking to appreciate and articulate the conservative viewpoint. Then mix in that liberals conflate Republicanism with conservatism. And the non-conservative Republican perspective or behavior can be used as a reason to simply nullify further discussion.
Apr '11
Re: Why Are Most Liberals Wholly Unable to Even Articulate Conservative Viewpoints?
Larry Koler
James Of England
They don't win all the fights.
Notice who's setting the agenda in your examples.
No, they don't win all the fights. But, they start almost all of them and through attrition they win the ones they really push for.
We, on the other hand, can't roll anything back nor can we assert our own positive agenda because we lack the power (and the will). · Jun 13 at 10:01pm
I'm not sure gun rights were a fight that was started entirely by the left. Concealed carry was moving through the states before the Firearm Owners Protections Act was passed, after decades of relatively stable gun laws. Other examples of fights picked by the right include Gov. Thompson's welfare reform, school choice, the current fights over labor law, and the Reagan rather than FDR level income taxes. Our SCOTUS is dominated by conservative appointments and its decisions regularly give us either the strongest conservative decisions in their field in history, or the strongest in living memory (assuming nonagenarians weren't pre-teen con law scholars).
Don't underestimate conservative successes; they often turn out to be important.
Feb '11
Re: Why Are Most Liberals Wholly Unable to Even Articulate Conservative Viewpoints?
Larry Koler
.....
Yes, but don't forget that they still formulate their positions using a pretense at rational argument. They lose interest with reason based answers because their own arguments are ultimately not reason based but rationalizations. (Just like Jonathan Haidt says we all do -- but because of competing aspects of the his six moral bases Republicans do a better job of being persuadable.)
Pretense at rational argument? Not merely wrong or different, but actively deceitful? That's some dour view of humanity. Leftists are human too; they can get befuddled by the complexity of issues and they can be passionately wrong. Despite the fact that we all like to think of ourselves as unfailing rationalists in the heat of battle, we are all subject to the same flaws. Haven't you ever realized, in the middle of debate, that even if you turn out to be wrong about the fact in question that your underlying position wouldn't change anyway because it's based on something other than "fact"? I have.
Feb '11
Re: Why Are Most Liberals Wholly Unable to Even Articulate Conservative Viewpoints?
Foxfier
.....
It doesn't matter if they say the same thing, it matters if it's true.
Skepticism should not be a goal in and of itself; it is a tool. (Ditto evenhandedness-- just because both sides claim the other is wrong, you can't stop at the conclusion that they'rebothwrong. At the end of reasoning, you might conclude it, but it can't be assumed.)
.....
Have the other studies been proven to be wrong? Has it been proven that Haidt has discovered truth? I’m not skeptical because both sides claim truth; I’m skeptical because they both come from the realm of social science which suffers from the fatal conceit that with just the right methodology we can capture the depth and breadth of humanity on a six factor matrix. I’m skeptical because the inference from studies like this is that human thought and behavior isn’t so much consciously chosen as it is imposed by chemistry, environment, and evolution - the materialist view baked right into the cake. And, if true, it is an entirely rational argument against the type of freedom that conservatives try to champion.
Edited on June 15, 2012 at 4:36pmJun '10
Re: Why Are Most Liberals Wholly Unable to Even Articulate Conservative Viewpoints?
oldbaritone: It never ceases to amaze me that most liberal arguments against the conservative viewpoint consist of name-calling, frequently blatant and childish: the 'liar liar pants on fire" response.
I would expect better from people who supposedly are well-educated, but alas such is rarely the case. · Jun 14 at 6:21am
You are confusing brain-washing with education.
Jun '10
Re: Why Are Most Liberals Wholly Unable to Even Articulate Conservative Viewpoints?
James Of England
Larry Koler
...
Notice who's setting the agenda in your examples.
...
We, on the other hand, can't roll anything back nor can we assert our own positive agenda because we lack the power (and the will).
I'm not sure gun rights were a fight that was started entirely by the left. Concealed carry was moving through the states before the Firearm Owners Protections Act was passed, after decades of relatively stable gun laws. Other examples of fights picked by the right include Gov. Thompson's welfare reform, school choice, the current fights over labor law, and the Reagan rather than FDR level income taxes. Our SCOTUS is dominated by conservative appointments and its decisions regularly give us either the strongest conservative decisions in their field in history, or the strongest in living memory (assuming nonagenarians weren't pre-teen con law scholars).
Don't underestimate conservative successes; they often turn out to be important.
My gosh, try as you will, you can't come up with one thing that is not a defensive reaction to the Dems' previous laws and policies!
The Supreme Court still hasn't reversed Roe (but point taken).
Jun '10
Re: Why Are Most Liberals Wholly Unable to Even Articulate Conservative Viewpoints?
Ed G.
...
Pretense at rational argument? Not merely wrong or different, but actively deceitful? That's some dour view of humanity. Leftists are human too; they can get befuddled by the complexity of issues and they can be passionately wrong. Despite the fact that we all like to think of ourselves as unfailing rationalists in the heat of battle, we are all subject to the same flaws. Haven't you ever realized, in the middle of debate, that even if you turn out to be wrong about the fact in question that your underlying position wouldn't change anyway because it's based on something other than "fact"? I have.
I gave an example in comment #50 why I consider "pretense" accurate. I said that it was easy to prove for yourself.
I am speaking in general here -- of course, there are always exceptions but broadly speaking I think that liberals' tendency to be driven by the emotional appeal doesn't work well with the rational part of their minds. Also, they haven't developed skills working with reason -- in general -- and it shows in the sloppy way they defend themselves.
Apr '11
Re: Why Are Most Liberals Wholly Unable to Even Articulate Conservative Viewpoints?
Larry Koler
My gosh, try as you will, you can't come up withone thing that is not a defensive reactionto the Dems' previous laws and policies!
The Supreme Court still hasn't reversedRoe (but point taken). · 1 minute ago
It's true that if your ambition is to shrink government, you're intrinsically responding to either the existence of government or the possible future existence of government. The furthest that you could get from that is to attack a status quo that has been untouched for decades, as in my examples. In those cases, the liberals do not control the agenda, which was your claim. Your previous claim was that conservatives were not important for liberals to deal with.
There are, of course, areas where the conservative aim has not been to decrease government. Reagan's creation of the war on drugs is an example of a conservative reform that liberals have not been successful in defeating, and each post-Vietnam Republican has achieved a crucial success in dispelling the image of American military impotence (Reagan, admittedly, through non-military means).
Jun '10
Re: Why Are Most Liberals Wholly Unable to Even Articulate Conservative Viewpoints?
James,
Here's your list:
Now come on, James, are you paying attention to the actual points here? Every one of these is a positively asserted move on the left's part -- they are in control of the national agenda. Face it. They obviously have the whip hand.
Jun '10
Re: Why Are Most Liberals Wholly Unable to Even Articulate Conservative Viewpoints?
James Of England
...
There are, of course, areas where the conservative aim has not been to decrease government. Reagan's creation of the war on drugs is an example of a conservative reform that liberals have not been successful in defeating, ...
Do you think the liberals want to defeat the silly war on drugs? I'm confused on this one. After all, nanny state work like this is something that they have to be a little conflicted on.
Apr '12
Re: Why Are Most Liberals Wholly Unable to Even Articulate Conservative Viewpoints?
Ed G.
Have the other studies been proven to be wrong? Has it been proven that Haidt has discovered truth?
Every single one that I have found the background data on-- and it's usually well burried, if it's available at all-- should be laughed out on sample size, selection bias or misrepresentation of findings alone.
What do you mean by "proven"? The theory either works or it doesn't-- if contradicting information comes out, then it needs to be revised. It's a theory about how people work, and a very small section of people at that.
I agree that it's frequently abused, but that doesn't mean it can never be used properly. Trying to understand how people think is probably about five minutes younger than the existence of more than two people. ;^p Understanding the influences on how one thinks can help one change oneself, if one wants. Sure, a lot of really cruddy theories come out, and a lot of it's self-serving-- but not all.
Apr '11
Re: Why Are Most Liberals Wholly Unable to Even Articulate Conservative Viewpoints?
Larry Koler: James,
Here's your list:
Now come on, James, are you paying attention to the actual points here? Every one of these is a positively asserted move on the left's part -- they are in control of the national agenda. Face it. They obviously have the whip hand. ·
Well, like I said, if you include historical "first moves", all government reducing actions everywhere are, by definition, reactive. Criticizing conservatives for failing to achieve a logical and definitional impossibility seems unhelpful.
As a practical matter, though, taking a decades old stable status quo and reshaping it to conservative ends is to have one's own agenda.
I raise Reagan's War on Drugs and hawkish foreign policy as the two chief exceptions to conservatives wanting small government. If you want to "true Scotsman" those examples, fair enough, but they're aims pursued by through most of the leading conservative politicians over our lifetimes.
Trade reform is a nonreactive conservative success.
Jun '10
Re: Why Are Most Liberals Wholly Unable to Even Articulate Conservative Viewpoints?
James Of Englan
Well, like I said, if you include historical "first moves", all government reducing actions everywhere are, by definition, reactive.
...
Which, of course, we are not including and which, of course, you added as a straw man because you can't seem to follow a logical train of thought.
Jun '10
Re: Why Are Most Liberals Wholly Unable to Even Articulate Conservative Viewpoints?
James,
I completely agree that the War on Drugs fits a Republican positive item but it was like pushing an open door because libs love the big government things. It is (and was) a dumb idea.
We are talking about power here. Power in areas that are highly fought over. The most Republicans have been able to do is stop (a few) and slow (a few more) items that are asserted by the left.
Regarding the hawkish stuff, this was an area of bipartisan concern for decades. It still is somewhat bipartisan, though to a lesser extent and only when its a Democrat in the office or right after 9/11.
A further explanatory point is that the Dems have the power by elite control (not majority control) and so when something comes up that the conservatives and the vast majority of the country want -- and only in that case -- can this country function the way it was intended.
Don't forget my point about the Cold War and the scars that we conservative (read: traditional Americans) bear as a result. This is why we are in this fix with a Marxist, anti-American as president.
Apr '11
Re: Why Are Most Liberals Wholly Unable to Even Articulate Conservative Viewpoints?
Larry Koler
James Of Englan
Well, like I said, if you include historical "first moves", all government reducing actions everywhere are, by definition, reactive.
...
Which, of course, we are not including and which, of course, you added as a straw man because you can't seem to follow a logical train of thought. · 3 hours ago
I made the point that some of the moves were taken against a status quo from decades before, such as the concealed carry movement of the 80s. You said that those were reactive, because they were reacting to a positively asserted move on the liberal's part. Since they made no relevant move for decades before that, I thought that this straw man was genuinely your argument. Likewise with the examples, like welfare reform.
Welfare reform was a conservative reform born of conservative energy, not out of a backlash to a recent liberal reform. Conservatives held the whip hand and whipped the queens into workfare. Tommy Thompson was a great man, and not an annoyance the liberals could afford to ignore.
Apr '11
Re: Why Are Most Liberals Wholly Unable to Even Articulate Conservative Viewpoints?
Larry Koler: James,
I completely agree that the War on Drugs fits a Republican positive item but it was like pushing an open door because libs love the big government things. It is (and was) a dumb idea.
We are talking about power here. Power in areas that are highly fought over. The most Republicans have been able to do is stop (a few) and slow (a few more) items that are asserted by the left.
Even if you think they're dumb ideas, it still got passed by Reagan. Even if they can only pass ideas when they have the bulk of the people behind them, they can still pass ideas then. Republicans don't just stop or slow liberal reforms, they pass their own; I listed a bunch.
If you want to say that those don't count because 50 years before liberals created that problem, then I can understand the argument, but if you want to say that that's a straw man, I don't understand your argument. In what sense was Tommy Thompson's reform not an item asserted, successfully, by the right?