Why Am I Seeing Gary Johnson Signs?
Here is an indisputable fact: either Barack Obama or Mitt Romney will win the presidency on November 6. Here is another: Gary Johnson will not. And one more: far more of those who will vote for Gary Johnson would vote for Mitt Romney than would vote for Barack Obama if Gary Johnson did not exist. Thus, a vote for Gary Johnson indisputably aids the election of the man least desirable to Gary Johnson supporters.
In a world with few certainties, one certainty is that voting for Gary Johnson makes Barack Obama's re-election more likely.
So why on God's green earth would anyone vote for Gary Johnson? I don't ask this to be insulting or demeaning. I truly cannot fathom why, with the known real-world consequences of voting for Johnson, anyone would.
So, given the indisputable, what are the best arguments for voting for Johnson? And the best rebuttals, if what I've written above isn't one of them?
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Comments:
Jul '10
Re: Why Am I Seeing Gary Johnson Signs?
Nope. You got it.
The crazier libertarians have a straw up their kiester. But your logic is absolutely correct. Once before there was a similar result - Clinton won without winning the majority, and had not the 3rd party candidate been there, he would not have.
Nov '10
Re: Why Am I Seeing Gary Johnson Signs?
TheyThey are are no doubt more principled than you. So they might say!
Apr '12
Re: Why Am I Seeing Gary Johnson Signs?
There could be an argument for it in a state like California or New York, which are pretty solid Obama. There are many who would like to break out of the two-party system. (Good luck with that!) Voting third party in a state where electoral votes are assured to go to one or the other of the candidates could help a party achieve major-party status. Back before I saw the light, I did that when the Libertarians were very close to major-party status here in Michigan. Of course, that was 1992, and I thought nobody but a fool would vote for either Clinton or Perot and that Bush would take it in a near cakewalk. (Oops!)
Still, if someone like Fred Cole votes for Gary Johnson in New York, how much is it likely to matter? If New York turns out to be in play, I doubt the election will be close in the electoral college tally.
That said, are you in New Hampshire these days? There I would be nervous about such a course with things as close as they are.
Jul '11
Re: Why Am I Seeing Gary Johnson Signs?
At this point those voting for Johnson would most likely not vote at all if their only choices are Romney or Obama since they find both unacceptable.
Nov '10
Re: Why Am I Seeing Gary Johnson Signs?
Actually, there are lots if those Gary Johnson signs here in navy blue Durham, NC. I'm pretty confident that here he's drawing Obama voters, which is just fine with me.
Aug '12
Re: Why Am I Seeing Gary Johnson Signs?
I don't think that Gary is in danger of being a spoiler. I, for one, live in IL, and I will probably pull the lever for Gary on Nov 6. Even though I've supported Romney Ryan all this time. I just know I won't make a real difference, and Gary has some good ideas- ones I think the repubs would do well to emulate. (veto everything, end of corporate welfare, smaller gov't) All things we say we're for, but seem to be in short supply during republican reign - be it presidency, senate, or house rule. Only when they're up against a bigger spender do they seriously take up the mantle of government control, and even then, it's a matter of degrees. Rarely do you hear a mainstream republican seriously advocate for something reasonable, like abolishment of the dept of education. I like this aspect of libertarianism, and I don't think this makes me a fire breather or otherwise wild eyed heretic.
Jul '10
Re: Why Am I Seeing Gary Johnson Signs?
OK. All these arguments sound plausible. But take the Bush-Gore election, where Gore took the popular vote while Bush won the electoral college. That little tidbit has been used as a club to try to destroy the electoral college by the left. In THIS election, I would submit that every vote for RR would be helpful - even in the gangster state of Illinois (where I also live, I am sorry to say).
Jul '10
Re: Why Am I Seeing Gary Johnson Signs?
I would remind those who are concerned that the Tea Party IS being vigilant. And W didn't get to put Harriet Meyers on the SC and was forced to pick someone really qualified. And his immigration plan was canned. All because of pressure by the conservatives.
We have political power. Maybe not in states like Illinois (although even that may change over the coming years). But we can affect federal decisions with serious effort. And the right IS energized. They will not let Romney simply run about acting like a RINO.
Oct '10
Re: Why Am I Seeing Gary Johnson Signs?
To clarify (I think my post's penultimate sentence may have muddied my intent in writing the post), yes I'm in NH and I'm not looking for a valid reason to vote for Johnson. Not a chance. I'm just mystified that anyone would, given that it helps Obama's chances in purple states and it hurts Romney's national vote (which matters for non-EC reasons) in blue and red states.
As for both major party candidates being "unacceptable" to Libertarians, so what?? One of them is going to win! Not voting (or voting for Johnson) only makes the worse of the two more likely to win. How is doing that "standing on principle?"
Consider it a Sophie's Choice. On principle I couldn't possibly choose one of my children over the other one. So on principle, I choose neither, and consign both of them to death. Gee, now I can sleep at night. NOT.
Voting for Gary Johnson is Sophie declining to make a choice.
Edited on October 21, 2012 at 5:22amDec '10
Re: Why Am I Seeing Gary Johnson Signs?
If you want Republicans to act on good ideas, you have to work within the party and hold their feet to the fire. The possibility of a split between the electoral and popular votes (again) is just nightmarish. If you think you're sending a message, you're wrong. You're only imperiling the perceived legitimacy of the outcome.
Jul '10
Re: Why Am I Seeing Gary Johnson Signs?
They can say what they wish, but the principled fight should be in the primary. Once you have that hashed out, you stick with your side - and hope to convince others later. Ron Paul, after all, has been trying to do this for a very long time. I would submit that he has been relatively successful, looking at this last primary.
Apr '12
Re: Why Am I Seeing Gary Johnson Signs?
You were very clear. I tend to worry about the popular vote less, although maybe I shouldn't. If the Constitution is ever altered to eliminate the Electoral College, we're one step closer to DEMOCRACY! *Shudder* And that puts us closer to dictatorship.
Oct '10
Re: Why Am I Seeing Gary Johnson Signs?
Agreed...but you don't advance its efficacy with a second Obama administration or a delegitimized Romney administration, either of which is more likely with a Johnson vote in any state.
Mar '11
Re: Why Am I Seeing Gary Johnson Signs?
The topic of voting third party was hashed out in some detail a few months ago.
The gist is that some people have hot-button issues and opinions that make them perceive both Obama and Romney to be completely unacceptable. For instance, if your biggest issue is pacifism and think the U.S. should disengage from Afghanistan and the GWOT, who do you vote for?
There are certainly a number of spoiled children and contrarians who will be voting for Johnson, but there are a number of very principled voters doing so as well.
Mar '11
Re: Why Am I Seeing Gary Johnson Signs?
Western Chauvinist
If you want Republicans to act on good ideas, you have to work within the party and hold their feet to the fire. The possibility of a split between the electoral and popular votes (again) is just nightmarish. If you think you're sending a message, you're wrong.
I disagree. Politicians, like anyone else, respond to incentives. When it comes to politics, the incentive of getting people to vote for you is orders of magnitude more powerful than anything (except perhaps big donations).
"Holding feet to the fire" is nice in principle, but pretty ineffective in practice. Fear of losing an election gets things done.
Edited on October 21, 2012 at 5:38amOct '10
Re: Why Am I Seeing Gary Johnson Signs?
Mendel: The gist is that some people have hot-button issues and opinions that make them perceive both Obama and Romney to be completely unacceptable. For instance, if your biggest issue is pacifism and think the U.S. should disengage from Afghanistan and the GWOT, who do you vote for?
...but there are a number of very principled voters doing so as well.
If that's only someone's "biggest" issue, then it shouldn't be hard to choose for whom to vote. There are enough other issues to help crystallize the decision.
Only if that's someone's ONLY issue would it be hard. But single-issue voters, it seems to me, are faux principled. Because life in America doesn't revolve around a single issue.
I'd like to know what principles could possible lead someone to act in a way that knowingly helps put that person's least desirable candidate in the Oval Office.
I don't think it's "principles" at all.
Mar '11
Re: Why Am I Seeing Gary Johnson Signs?
Gene Wilder summed it up best in that masterpiece philosophical thriller, Blazing Saddles.
Mar '11
Re: Why Am I Seeing Gary Johnson Signs?
dittoheadadt
Only if that's someone's ONLY issue would it be hard. But single-issue voters, it seems to me, are faux principled. Because life in America doesn't revolve around a single issue.
I wouldn't call them single-issue voters, but litmus test voters - just like those who will only vote for a pro-life candidate. If by some strange accident both major candidates were pro-choice, would you condemn a strong pro-lifer for voting third party?
dittoheadadt
I'd like to know what principles could possible lead someone to act in a way thatknowinglyhelps put that person'sleastdesirable candidate in the Oval Office.
There are voters - and I am sympathetic to their opinions while not completely sharing them - who genuinely feel that Obama and Romney are so similar on the issues that matter to them that conditions under a second Obama administration would not differ meaningfully from a Romney administration.
And they have something of a case: all through the primary, we constantly heard about how similar Romney is to Obama. Some people still believe that (I don't, but again, I can understand the sentiment).
Oct '10
Re: Why Am I Seeing Gary Johnson Signs?
Mendel
dittoheadadt
Only if that's someone's ONLY issue would it be hard. But single-issue voters, it seems to me, are faux principled. Because life in America doesn't revolve around a single issue.
I wouldn't call them single-issue voters, but litmus test voters - just like those who will only vote for a pro-life candidate. If by some strange accident both major candidates were pro-choice, would you condemn a strong pro-lifer for voting third party?
I think "condemn" is too strong, but I would not hold their actions in high regard, no matter how strongly-held was their litmus test issue. The reason is this: we don't live litmus-test lives. No matter how important any issue is to some people, there are many other issues that affect their lives as well.
It does not seem possible to me that some voters cannot discern which of two candidates is more threatening to the things (not "thing") that matter most to them.
The observation that "all politicians are the same" is not rational. Equating Obama and Romney is not rational.
May '12
Re: Why Am I Seeing Gary Johnson Signs?
I don't think a vote for Johnson automatically takes one away from Gov. Romney. There are more than a few disaffected liberals that could easily vote for Johnson.
I think FJG has it correct that most voting for Johnson would not vote for either Gov. Romney or Obama.
Johnson isn't a crazy candidate, but he is a long way being Ross Perot.