Which Debate Did You Watch?
Having two young hellions running around the house last night, I was unable to watch the debate. But I did replay the Ricochet Live Chat shortly afterwards, and walked away with a pretty clear impression – not only from the poll, but from the majority of comments as well – that Herman Cain probably came out best, that Mitt Romney stumbled pretty badly, and that Rick Perry did better than in past debates, but not well enough to challenge for the front-runner-ship.
Then, because I had a few minutes, I wandered over to The Corner to get their post-debate take. Almost everyone there agreed that the winner was Romney, with Cain showing great likeability but also some pretty big vulnerabilities, and Perry picking up his a game a bit but not enough.
Does this strike anyone else as kind of odd? How does one account for this? There’s got to be – what? 90-95% overlap in the core beliefs and values of the NR universe and the Ricochet universe? How do such similar groups watch (presumably) the same debate and come to such different conclusions? The NR crowd, having sold out to the RINO establishment, has a pro-Romney bias? The Ricochet crowd has fallen victim to a kind of groupthink anti-Romney bias? Or is there something else going on here?
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Nov '10
Re: Which Debate Did You Watch?
He did indeed. He struggled on 9-9-9 a bit, too.
DrewInWisconsin
If the candidate has a solid conservative foundation, then on issues where they aren't as studied, I sort of expect to see that conservatism come out anyway. · Oct 19 at 10:33am
'Zackly. And I'm hoping that a successful, intuitive problem-solver like Cain is just *good* at surrounding himself with good people--people who are also conservative and will advise him well. *crosses fingers*
Aug '11
Re: Which Debate Did You Watch?
But hey, at least we're trying to choose between Republicans, right?
Having fled to Ricochet from a general political message board that has gradually become more lefty (as conservatives leave, disgusted by the behavior of the leftists) Ricochet is like a sweet, sweet oasis of thoughtful discussion. Characterizing it as you have above is not entirely fair. If people here are moving away from Romney, perhaps you should engage their thinking instead of just calling people "cheerleaders."
Mar '11
Re: Which Debate Did You Watch?
It's the difference between amateurs and professionals. Most of those posting on NRO do it for a living and that means they have to rise above personal preferences and at least try to look at things objectively. Many of those posting here (including me) do this for a hobby and let our biases shine through. But isn't that one of the defining differences of Ricochet? There is an anti-Romney bias here but that's probably true of most of the political hobbyists on the conservative side which is why Romney is having a hard time rising in the polls. I find him compelling but I'm ready to admit that I'm probably not particularly objective either. Then again, I don't have to be.
Re: Which Debate Did You Watch?
BT, I admit to being one of the Romney bashers hereabouts, but it isn't for want of trying to like Mitt. I'd be delighted to support Romney, if only I could, and if he winds up as the nominee I will salute smartly. That said, there is a reason why Romney's support is stuck at ~25% of Republican primary voters despite his universal name recognition. I accept Romney's opposition to the federal Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act [sic] and applaud him for this stand. However, I fear that he will be obliterated in debate by the president over the undeniable similarities between his Massachusetts healthcare overhaul and the president's own signature "achievement."
As I said last night on our live blog: if Romney would simply acknowledge that his Massachusetts health reform was a mistake, I think his support would balloon. But he won't do it, which is odd considering his changes on many other issues over the years.
What's your take?
May '10
Re: Which Debate Did You Watch?
Layla
He did indeed. He struggled on 9-9-9 a bit, too.
DrewInWisconsin
If the candidate has a solid conservative foundation, then on issues where they aren't as studied, I sort of expect to see that conservatism come out anyway. · Oct 19 at 10:33am
'Zackly. And I'm hoping that a successful, intuitive problem-solver like Cain is just *good* at surrounding himself with good people--people who are also conservative and will advise him well. *crosses fingers* · Oct 19 at 10:41am
No, this is terribly, tragically wrong. So often, we trust the guys without clear theoretical grounding if their instincts are correct. These are the guys who fold in a crisis (GWB & TARP, anyone?) or who drift over time--the ones who "grow" in office.
Someone said Cain can be schooled. When, exactly, is that going to happen? And, by whom?
Edited on Oct 19, 2011 at 10:50amNov '10
Re: Which Debate Did You Watch?
Fredösphere
Layla
He did indeed. He struggled on 9-9-9 a bit, too.
DrewInWisconsin
If the candidate has a solid conservative foundation, then on issues where they aren't as studied, I sort of expect to see that conservatism come out anyway. · Oct 19 at 10:33am
'Zackly. And I'm hoping that a successful, intuitive problem-solver like Cain is just *good* at surrounding himself with good people--people who are also conservative and will advise him well. *crosses fingers* · Oct 19 at 10:41am
No, this is terribly, tragically wrong. So often, we trust the guys without clear theoretical grounding if their instincts are correct. These are the guys who fold in a crisis (GWB & TARP, anyone?) or who drift over time--the ones who "grow" in office.
Someone send Cain can be schooled. When, exactly, is that going to happen? And, by whom? · Oct 19 at 10:46am
Hear ya. But then did anyone think that GWB was a conservative (beyond social issues)?
Jan '11
Re: Which Debate Did You Watch?
Not at all, if people disagree with me I prefer they say so. What I pointed out in my comment, and you evidently ignored, is that the bias of the main contributors on this site is plain, and it stems from an emotional response to Romney. Peter Robinson has stated as much several times. With such an overwhelming antipathy for Romney dominating here, for it to surprise anyone that the main contributors let their emotional biases color their perception of the debate doesn't seem terribly self-aware.
As to my disappointment about what this site is morphing into, well, I'm sorry but I'm allowed to kvetch. When I joined, Mike Murphy and David Brooks were welcome on the podcasts, there was a nice diversity of right-leaning political opinion, and I agreed that this was a center-right place as it declared itself to be. That's why I joined. I no longer believe Ricochet is that. It's become more far right, and the member posts are dominated by Tea Party types, whom I don't consider anywhere near center. It's happened organically, but It's just not my cup of tea.
Edited on Oct 19, 2011 at 10:53amMar '11
Re: Which Debate Did You Watch?
Any site where people freely participate (or have to pay to do so!) will inevitably be dominated by those who are passionate about the subject to the detriment of those who are merely somewhat interested.
In the modern American political landscape, the passion is entirely at the "wings," and the concepts of centrist and principled have become contradictory. It is therefore no surprise that any political website, Ricochet included, will drift away from the center.
Sep '10
Re: Which Debate Did You Watch?
Some examples might help here.
Dec '10
Re: Which Debate Did You Watch?
BThompson
As to my disappointment about what this site is morphing into, well, I'm sorry but I'm allowed to kvetch. When I joined Mike Murphy was on the podcasts, there was a nice diversity of right-leaning political opinion, and I agreed that this was a center-right place as it declared itself to be. That's why I joined. I no longer believe Ricochet is that. It's become more far right, and the member posts are dominated by Tea Party types, whom I don't consider anywhere near center. It's happened organically, but It's just not my cup of tea. · Oct 19 at 10:51am
I hope you stick around long enough to make the case for your more centrist views. I also hope the rest of us are honest and intelligent enough to engage your points in a constructive way. I don't know about anyone else here, but I didn't join Ricochet because I already know everything. I want to be proven wrong when I'm wrong. You've softened my opinion of Romney during previous exchanges, and that's not nothing.
Mar '11
Re: Which Debate Did You Watch?
KC Mulville:
But if you're in a group watching an event, other people respond to different things, and they make comments out loud. Suddenly, a well-formed comment can hijack the focus of everyone in the group, and rather than complete your own semi-conscious thought, you just go with the fully-formed comment.
I think this comment pretty much nails it.
Back in the 70s when George Savage first started reading NR, there were many fewer outlets for political discourse than today. A flagship publication like NR had to perform the incredible balancing act of pleasing all factions on the right at once, a feat only possible with a visionary like Buckley at the helm.
Today we have an unlimited number of groups, and no cost to joining or leaving most of them (Ricochet excepted). Everyone can find one that suits their tastes, and each group has something different to offer. There is no way for NR to please everybody at once anymore, so they are slowly becoming just another niche group, albeit a very large one, which represents the corner of establishment conservatism.
Oct '10
Re: Which Debate Did You Watch?
The King Prawn
BThompson
As to my disappointment about what this site is morphing into, well, I'm sorry but I'm allowed to kvetch. When I joined Mike Murphy was on the podcasts, there was a nice diversity of right-leaning political opinion, and I agreed that this was a center-right place as it declared itself to be. · Oct 19 at 10:51am
I hope you stick around long enough to make the case for your more centrist views. I also hope the rest of us are honest and intelligent enough to engage your points in a constructive way. · Oct 19 at 11:00am
We all bring our political baggage to Ricochet. Mine is over 50 years of watching the GOP supporting the next guy in line, and the left taking America from our grasp.
For myself, McRomney is just the next guy in line, and will be yet another ineffectual GOP candidate as the left continues it's progressive march through our meaningless resistance.
Aug '11
Re: Which Debate Did You Watch?
I have only one thing to add to what George Savage said about the drift at National Review: the folks over there have been awfully helpful in getting Ricochet off the ground, so we all owe them a debt of collegial gratitude.
Jul '10
Re: Which Debate Did You Watch?
But is there really such a thing as a Ricochet conservative? At least, as a set of issue preferences, not the charming, physically attractive, mentally adroit part we all take for granted.
Edited on Oct 19, 2011 at 12:03pmMar '11
Re: Which Debate Did You Watch?
One of Romney's strengths has been his ease and articulateness in the debates. It's by no means nothing. Last night, he had a meltdown when needled by Perry (he actually said that that he told his lawn service company that he couldn't have illegal immigrants working for him because he was running for office!). That break in the facade is a loss for Romney. I'll prefer to believe my lying eyes rather than the NRO guys.
Re: Which Debate Did You Watch?
Absolutely. NRO is a must-read for me each and every day. Right after Ricochet.
May '10
Re: Which Debate Did You Watch?
Instead of tuning into the Ricochet chat last night I watched the debates with my political-junky 16 year old son, and we had positive impressions of both Cain and Romney. We're both enthusuastic Cain fans but came out of the debate looking more favorably at a Romney/Cain ticket. We still prefer Cain on the issues and haven't ruled him out but thought Romney also handled himself well when Santorum and Perry became almost childish in their attacks ("You're out of time now." Really??!)
I've thought Romney was occasionally petulant when challenged in past debates (which I watched while participating in the Rico live chat....hmmm) but thought he looked very presidential last night even when arguments among candidates became heated.
A Romney/Cain or Cain/Romney ticket featuring two businessmen with strong records of turnarounds could be very effective against the Obama campaign. Cain could be a smiling attack dog as VP candidate, and if it went the other way Romney would chew up and spit out Biden in a debate. (continued)
Edited on Oct 19, 2011 at 12:18pmJan '11
Re: Which Debate Did You Watch?
Visceral dislike of Romney? Maybe.
I think it comes from the disappointment at the flip-flops, and fear that this guy is just telling us what we want to hear. We've all had enough of that. I know that it really bothers me.
On the other hand, I also think Romney's a lock right now. He's got enough money, but more importantly. he has a ton of organization, and that's going to pay off. I've never believed that money and organization is everything, but it certainly is something.I respect that ability to organize; after all, executive skills are what the presidency is about.
His inevitability has a rebound effect, however. Instead of that bringing me closer to him, it releases me from any urgency to close ranks behind him. I'm free to be more critical of him.
I'm just afraid that after the GOP convention, he'll assure the media that he's a "good" (safe and unthreatening) conservative. Unlike others in the GOP (i.e., us), he really cares about people.
May '10
Re: Which Debate Did You Watch?
My son and I came out of last night's debate with the sense that Santorum and Bachmann are single-issue candidates who need to back off so we can focus on more serious candidates. Ron Paul won't go away and has some valid points worth hearing, and Newt Gingrich needs to stay to provide perspective and act as elder statesman when needed.
Herman Cain is very likeable and was unflappable even when attacked from all sides. NR readers are off base to quickly dismiss his potential appeal to voters. It's a good idea for us at Ricochet to ponder whether we, too, occasionally succumb to groupthink and dismiss qualified if less-than-perfect candidates too early.
Edited on Oct 19, 2011 at 11:43amRe: Which Debate Did You Watch?
BThompson
What I pointed out in my comment, and you evidently ignored, is that the bias of the main contributors on this site is plain, and it stems from an emotional response to Romney. Peter Robinson has stated as much several times. With such an overwhelming antipathy for Romney dominating here, for it to surprise anyone that the main contributors let their emotional biases color their perception of the debate doesn't seem terribly self-aware.
Edited on Oct 19 at 10:53 am
A couple of points, BT:
1) What I've stated several times is that my response to Romney is based not on an emotional or visceral dislike of the man, but on facts--namely, that he once claimed to have been an independent during the Reagan years but now praises Reagan, that he was once so ardently pro-choice that he contributed to Planned Parenthood but now says he's firmly pro-life, and so on. That irks me. Yes, irkedness (is that a word?) represents an emotion. But it arises, again, from the facts.
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