Which Debate Did You Watch?
Having two young hellions running around the house last night, I was unable to watch the debate. But I did replay the Ricochet Live Chat shortly afterwards, and walked away with a pretty clear impression – not only from the poll, but from the majority of comments as well – that Herman Cain probably came out best, that Mitt Romney stumbled pretty badly, and that Rick Perry did better than in past debates, but not well enough to challenge for the front-runner-ship.
Then, because I had a few minutes, I wandered over to The Corner to get their post-debate take. Almost everyone there agreed that the winner was Romney, with Cain showing great likeability but also some pretty big vulnerabilities, and Perry picking up his a game a bit but not enough.
Does this strike anyone else as kind of odd? How does one account for this? There’s got to be – what? 90-95% overlap in the core beliefs and values of the NR universe and the Ricochet universe? How do such similar groups watch (presumably) the same debate and come to such different conclusions? The NR crowd, having sold out to the RINO establishment, has a pro-Romney bias? The Ricochet crowd has fallen victim to a kind of groupthink anti-Romney bias? Or is there something else going on here?
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Re: Which Debate Did You Watch?
Odd indeed. I helped Blue Yeti run the Ricochet live chat and was in agreement with the general sense among participants that Cain did really well and proved the most likable candidate. He really seems to put everyone at ease when he speaks, and has such a jovial, optimistic manner.
Then on Facebook this morning, I happened upon dozens of critical statements toward Cain including this one, which left me wondering if I watched the same debate everyone else did.
Re: Which Debate Did You Watch?
NR was a huge part of my formation as a conservative, starting when my dad gave me a gift subscription as a college student in the 1970s. However, NR is now a leading conservative institution. Almost by definition, institutions are likely to be a little less plugged into the primordial soup that spawned the tea party movement than a new, bottoms-up enterprise like Ricochet.
Also, NR just took an editorial stand against Cain's signature tax overhaul--missing entirely the point of the exercise, which is to catalyze bold tax and spending reform in a free-market direction--and so may feel disinclined to award Cain the win.
Finally, NR backed Romney last time around and, as second-place finisher against McCain back then, this is Romney's turn.
Speaking personally, last night gave me a depressing image of Romney floundering in debate against President Obama, since Mitt's whining dust-up with Perry revealed a glass jaw to complement his illogically stubborn defense of Romneycare.
Re: Which Debate Did You Watch?
In the Washington Examiner this morning, Michael Barone, although somewhat critical of Romney, said Romney did well--and that Cain got badly roughed up. In other words, Michael more or less agreed with the Corner. That left me scratching my head, I can tell you. I'd have supposed that I simply misread the debate--if I hadn't had Troy Senik, George Savage, Bill Walsh about about two-thirds of our participants last night agreeing that Cain shone (for much of the encounter) while Romney appeared (at a couple of critical junctures) petulant.
Thanks for putting up the question, Steve. Puzzled little moi will be checking this thread throughout the day.
Edited on Oct 19, 2011 at 10:13amRe: Which Debate Did You Watch?
George Savage makes a critical point--maybe the critical point, although we'll see what insights others might offer as the day goes on: What we've got here on our beloved Ricochet is a primordial soup.
Dec '10
Re: Which Debate Did You Watch?
I was wondering the same thing as I looked at NRO this morning. My immediate assessment was that NR is largely establishment and Romney is the establishment candidate. Jonah Goldberg came closest to being a dissenter, but even he scored the debate in Romney's favor. If anyone over there was to have a divergent view it would be Jonah. The best I can come up with is they are very much into the technicality while we remain in the reality.
May '10
Re: Which Debate Did You Watch?
Cain's problem with negotiate/don't negotiate with terrorists rattled me. That's a mistake of high amateurishness. The man obviously hasn't spent any time thinking about basic foreign policy issues. Last night convinced me that he's not serious--I'm writing him off. And that's definitely not something I wanted to do.
Meanwhile, there's this Perry guy. I hear he's governor of someplace. . . .
Edited on Oct 19, 2011 at 10:19amMar '11
Re: Which Debate Did You Watch?
I've noticed a big difference between NR and Ricochet, generally. Much to my surprise, Ricochet is more pro-Cain, and NR is pro-not sure, maybe Romney?
So I think that difference is reflected in the opinions of the debate. I also missed it (out, eating and drinking) - my first port of call was Stephen Green's drunk blog, where there was no winner, and that about sums it up, as far as I can see.
From what I have seen, Mr Cain didn't do a good job of defending 999 (most of us have noticed that Federal and State taxes are different). Mr Perry was obnoxious, and deserves to go no further in the race, other than he has a gazillion dollars. And Mr Romney was unusually annoying and irritable.
Only Mr Gingrich emerged unscathed, but so what?
So, eating and drinking were definitely a better use of my time :-)
Edited on Oct 19, 2011 at 10:18amMay '10
Re: Which Debate Did You Watch?
Speaking as one of the amoeba: thanks! Uh, I guess. . . .
Jan '11
Re: Which Debate Did You Watch?
This site has a visceral dislike of Romney which colors it's thinking. It's top contributors have been bashing him quite vociferously for months. The so-called "center-right" nature Ricochet claims for itself is nowhere to be found, as far as I'm concerned. Of course there is an ant-Romney bias coloring perception of the people posting here. It's obvious, and you'll notice that many of the true centrist posters who used to contribute regularly have disappeared. I suspect that, like me, they've gotten pretty sick of listening to people cheerlead for awful candidates as well as the over the top, incessant trashing of someone the GOP should be seriously considering as its nominee.
May '10
Re: Which Debate Did You Watch?
Soup?
What is that Fly doing in my soup?
The Backstroke.
Jan '11
Re: Which Debate Did You Watch?
The disparity doesn't surprise me. It's human nature.
At any event, you can have all kinds of reactions, but chances are you follow and dwell on the reactions you can articulate. When you're watching an event by yourself, lots of thoughts and feelings may occur to you, but they're only semi-conscious. If the event is fast-moving (like a football game), or it requires a lot of concentration (like a law trial or academic debate), then you often don't have time to articulate the thought and then follow it. Usually, therefore, it stays buried in the subconscious.
But if you're in a group watching an event, other people respond to different things, and they make comments out loud. Suddenly, a well-formed comment can hijack the focus of everyone in the group, and rather than complete your own semi-conscious thought, you just go with the fully-formed comment.
In the Ricochet group last night, someone commented how prickly Romney is when attacked. That comment unlocked a feeling that I hadn't fleshed out, but that comment unlocked it. After that, that's the dominant thing I noticed ... and didn't like!
Jun '10
Re: Which Debate Did You Watch?
A lot of political pundits demand, or expect, that the candidates have as deep a knowledge of political history and policy, foreign and domestic, as they do. Well, some of the candidates chose to have a life instead. Early on, for example, Cain seemed to accept a Palestinian "right of return." Cain didn't know that he'd just stepped on a political landmine. But Cain's basic attitude towards Israel is solid. He just needs a little tutoring on some issues. So, the question is, is that forgivable?
May '10
Re: Which Debate Did You Watch?
I think that most of this just has to do with controlling the narrative before and after the debates, particularly before. Narratives become intrenched ("Cain is weak on FP", "Perry stutters,") and it takes an unequivocally outstanding performance to alter them. Thus "Cain didn't harness his inner John Bolton...therefore he's still unqualified at foreign policy" ; "Perry still stuttered twice...therefore he's still inarticulate" ;"Romney's well-rehearsed...therefore he still looked well-rehearsed".
Gauging these things is an entirely subjective, and I think people mostly just see in the debates what they're more or less conditioned to see. I think George is right in that most often it's more a reflection of the individual person/people making the judgement than what actually occurred.
Aug '11
Re: Which Debate Did You Watch?
I actually thought Romney was particularly bad last night. I haven't been a fan, and the more I read of his associations with Obama administration insiders re: Obamacare and various AGW nonsense, the more I think he'd be as much of a disaster as Obama. But last night I though he came off as arrogant and petulant with a distinct aroma of entitlement.
Hopefully, we all understand the difference between State and Federal taxes, but Romney's seeming confusion on the issue in his confrontation with Herman Cain suggested that either he was faking it in the hopes of making 9-9-9 look worse than it is, that he truly doesn't understand the distinction Cain was making, or that he was far more interested in taking successive whacks at the guy nipping at his heels than actually listening to what Herman Cain was trying to say.
None of these things are positives for him. And for someone like me, who already didn't like Romney, it pretty much solidifies my determination to never vote for the man and work harder to ensure he gets nowhere near the Oval Office.
We don't need a RINO Obama.
Mar '11
Re: Which Debate Did You Watch?
Yesterday's debate was primarily a mud-slinging contest all around. When everyone is covered in mud, determining who stayed the cleanest can easily become a Rorschach test.
And if you read the comments over at NRO, I think you'll find about the same mixture as at Ricochet, only sometimes (ahem) a little less civil.
Nov '10
Re: Which Debate Did You Watch?
I essentially agree with NR's assessment of the debate; on the live chat last night I kept feeling like I was out of step with the general consensus on the performances.
My take: Some of us (cough, cough--Peter Robinson--cough, cough) are so desperate to find that not-Romney candidate that (1) Mitt got seriously testy and (2) Cain didn't really stumble too badly at all and (3) Perry really pepped up and worked the mojo! As I commented last night, I believe the wish is father to the thought.
Don't get me wrong: I'm firmly in the not-Romney camp. I still hold out hold for a Cain/Gingrich ticket. (C'mon: You know you want to see the Newt v Joe debates!) But last night's debate did not, in my humble opinion, particularly help Perry or Cain and certainly did not hurt Romney.
May '10
Re: Which Debate Did You Watch?
How dare anyone disagree with you!
Aug '11
Re: Which Debate Did You Watch?
Yes, for the reason I highlighted above. And that works for so many other issues as well. If the candidate has a solid conservative foundation, then on issues where they aren't as studied, I sort of expect to see that conservatism come out anyway.
Mar '11
Re: Which Debate Did You Watch?
Humans have an astonishing capacity for seeing things which comport with their world view and biases, and ignoring non-conforming facts. The Left, of course, has turned this into high art. So the differing responses to last night's debate may be appealing to the same phenomenom. Worth noting, also: most of the disagreements are about responses to personal style and emotion--who looked more peevish, etc. There's alotof agreement about the big issues between the candidates, so the ornamental gets more attention. One point of substance that struck me, however: Much as I love Herman Cain he looked like a dope on Gitmo.
Dec '10
Re: Which Debate Did You Watch?
DrewInWisconsin
Yes, for the reason I highlighted above. And that works for so many other issues as well. If the candidate has a solid conservative foundation, then on issues where they aren't as studied, I sort of expect to see that conservatism come out anyway. · Oct 19 at 10:33am
+2 It's all about Cain's mega-leadership qualities. Strong leaders know how to hire the right policy wonks.