Where Masturbation and Homosexuality Do Not Exist
That's the provocative headline of an Atlantic piece about two tribes in Africa. The piece begins:
Barry and Bonnie Hewlett had been studying the Aka and Ngandu people of central Africa for many years before they began to specifically study the groups' sexuality. As they reported in the journal African Study Monographs, the married couple of anthropologists from Washington State University "decided to systematically study sexual behavior after several campfire discussions with married middle-aged Aka men who mentioned in passing that they had sex three or four times during the night. At first [they] thought it was just men telling their stories, but we talked to women and they verified the men's assertions."
In turning to a dedicated study of sex practices, the Hewletts formally confirmed that the campfire stories were no mere fish tales. Married Aka and Ngandu men and women consistently reported having sex multiple times in a single night. But in the process of verifying this, the Hewletts also incidentally found that homosexuality and masturbation appeared to be foreign to both groups.
Sex is referred to as the "work of the night," as distinguished from the work the tribe does during the day. It's a really interesting read, but the bottom line is that the tribe relies on reproduction for its survival, so conjugal, life-producing sex is very important. And when that's the case, masturbation and homosexuality don't seem to be present in the culture (even though these tribes are aware that other groups engage in homosexuality).
We live in a country where adults estimate, on average, that 25% of the population is gay (in real life, that percentage is in the low single digits).
What, if anything, can we learn from the Hewlett's study of these tribes?
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Apr '12
Re: Where Masturbation and Homosexuality Do Not Exist
Catholics aren't the only crazy ones.
Jul '10
Re: Where Masturbation and Homosexuality Do Not Exist
What caught my eye was, "...the bottom line is that the tribe relies on reproduction for its survival, so conjugal, life-producing sex is very important. And when that's the case, masturbation and homosexuality don't seem to be present in the culture (even though these tribes are aware that other groups engage in homosexuality)."
The implication of that is that western civilization is so decadent that they have little use for reproduction for survival. While I can see that possibility, it hadn't struck be so before - at least not in that manner. Homosexuality was certainly present in the dying throes of Greek and Roman culture, but I simply didn't connect that fact.
Edited on December 10, 2012 at 5:15pmNov '11
Re: Where Masturbation and Homosexuality Do Not Exist
Good money says there's extremely strong cultural taboos against both in that culture.
May '10
Re: Where Masturbation and Homosexuality Do Not Exist
The reason masturbation doesn't exist is that they're too tired.
Jul '11
Re: Where Masturbation and Homosexuality Do Not Exist
So the boys go straight to procreation upon entering manhood and are told never to masturbate? Teenage boys that achieve repeated high levels of arousal and do nothing anout it, primarily because of religious instruction, often wind up with physical issues later. I'm skeptical of that claim of no self pleasure. What do those guys eat for their trifectas by the way, Congolese oysters and pineal glands? My guess on gay folks is a few % at most.
Re: Where Masturbation and Homosexuality Do Not Exist
After working all night, these guys have no energy for work on the side.
Nov '11
Re: Where Masturbation and Homosexuality Do Not Exist
Devereaux:
The implication of that is that western civilization is so decadent that they have little use for reproduction for survival.
Or that we live in a modern civilized society, stable enough that we're not merely scraping along, clinging to existence that we have enough organization, technology and resources that all sex need not be procreative just as all eating need not merely be for basic nutrition.
We can eat for social purposes and pleasure and ritual, not merely to survive.
Sep '12
Re: Where Masturbation and Homosexuality Do Not Exist
What can we learn from this study?
That since Margaret Mead, anthropologists have not gotten any less gullible.
Nov '11
Re: Where Masturbation and Homosexuality Do Not Exist
And, at the risk of being culturally insensitive, these people live a stone age existence, so fat lot of good their lack of masturbation and gay people has done them.
Dec '10
Re: Where Masturbation and Homosexuality Do Not Exist
Mollie Hemingway, Ed.:
What, if anything, can we learn from the Hewlett's study of these tribes? · · 25 minutes ago
People lie?
Mar '11
Re: Where Masturbation and Homosexuality Do Not Exist
Well, with a headline like that you're guaranteed to get attention.
The short answer to Mollie's concluding question is: how fascinating, this requires more study! Nevertheless, we ought to be extremely cautious about concluding anything about human nature from this one isolated example.
I am very skeptical of any article or argument, biological or sociological, that has discovered that a certain breed of animal has sex in a certain way, or that a certain tribe somewhere has a certain practice, and therefore draws a universally valid conclusion (especially if it is of the "noble savage" variety). Th Atlantic article does not do that, but precisely for this reason we should be on our guard against conclusions that seem to present themselves in sentences like this one from Mollie above: And when that's the case, masturbation and homosexuality don't seem to be present in the culture.
At most what we can say is that "here, in this place", not "when" that's the case generally. Or, two tribes without a word does not a proof make. That conclusion overreaches the evidence.
Another question: at what age is marriage consummated among these tribes?
Edited on December 10, 2012 at 5:35pmApr '11
Re: Where Masturbation and Homosexuality Do Not Exist
Fred Cole
Good money says there's extremely strong cultural taboos against both in that culture. · 7 minutes ago
And if you read the article you find out there aren't. Nor are they highly isolated in small groups. Each individual can know anywhere between 400-500 other individuals.
I find it rather fascinating. There is of course one very simple biological explanation that could account for this. If proclivity to such practices are genetically determined these people could be genetically isolated enough that they lack the the proper alleles for both masturbation/homosexuality. In fact this makes me wonder if the same alleles confer both traits? This of course is the most simplistic and deterministic model possible.
But hey the existence of a population that lacks homosexuality is genetically fascinating and provides a much needed negative control for trait association studies.
Jul '11
Re: Where Masturbation and Homosexuality Do Not Exist
Baby, 13 is my limit on schnitzengreuben.
Jul '11
Re: Where Masturbation and Homosexuality Do Not Exist
It's twoo, it's twoo!
Feb '12
Re: Where Masturbation and Homosexuality Do Not Exist
Why assume this is a lie? Or, impossible? Or, the anthropologist are gullible? Sure, in the Good Ol' U.S. of A. But why with an African tribe? That just seems cynical
Feb '12
Re: Where Masturbation and Homosexuality Do Not Exist
Valiuth
And if you read the article you find out there aren't. Nor are they highly isolated in small groups. Each individual can know anywhere between 400-500 other individuals.
I find it rather fascinating. There is of course one very simple biological explanation that could account for this. If proclivity to such practices are genetically determined these people could be genetically isolated enough that they lack the the proper alleles for both masturbation/homosexuality. In fact this makes me wonder if the same alleles confer both traits? This of course is the most simplistic and deterministic model possible.
But hey the existence of a population that lacks homosexuality is genetically fascinating and provides a much needed negative control for trait association studies. · 3 minutes ago
I know of identical twins, one is straight and the other gay. It may be genetically predisposed, but homosexuality isn't predetermined.
Jul '11
Re: Where Masturbation and Homosexuality Do Not Exist
I did read that article, Mollie. It is interesting.
To me it's more like Maslow's hierarchy - when subsistence is at a premium, then yes, sexuality is utilitarian. However, anything beyond that and behavior patterns change - as in the Bonobos.
Feb '11
Re: Where Masturbation and Homosexuality Do Not Exist
That since Margaret Mead, anthropologists have not gotten any less gullible. · 22 minutes ago
As well as people who read anthropologists.
Apr '11
Re: Where Masturbation and Homosexuality Do Not Exist
@DocJay
You are making a German spectacle of yourself.
Mar '12
Re: Where Masturbation and Homosexuality Do Not Exist
So, a high infant mortality rate is part of the divine plan that is violated by masturbation and gay sex? We could return to paradise if only we quit treating children with vaccines, antibiotics and medicines in general. Perhaps Don Imus's wife is the herald of a new, more truly naturalistic religion. If you abhor unnatural sex practices, get rid of unnatural interventions in children's disease.