What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Claire Berlinski, Ed. ·
June 2, 2011 at 3:49am
I'm ashamed that this happened in America:
This is wrong. We do not do this. Those memorials belong to us. We have a First Amendment. We don't make ordnances against dancing in celebration of the Founders. We don't arrest people for doing normal, happy things in public. What is this?
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May '10
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Basil Fawlty
FeliciaB:
I'm simply stunned at the unquestioning support for idiotic State cops.
I believe they were federal Park Police. Let's keep our idiots straight, here. · Jun 2 at 10:24am
:D :D :D If you're trying to lighten my mood, it's working.
Feb '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Tom Meyer
Here the officers -- whom, again, I have some sympathy with -- were forced by law to treat innocuous-albeit-obnoxious behavior as if it were dangerous. This is an incredibly poor use of their resources and excessively violent.
· Jun 2 at 8:19am
Tom, the officers weren't treating the "innocuous-albeit-obnoxious behavior" as dangerous; they were treating the resistance of a legitimate authority backed by a legitimate law (even if you think it's silly) as dangerous.
May '10
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Ed Gorz
Tom Meyer
Here the officers -- whom, again, I have some sympathy with -- were forced by law to treat innocuous-albeit-obnoxious behavior as if it were dangerous. This is an incredibly poor use of their resources and excessively violent.
· Jun 2 at 8:19am
Tom, the officers weren't treating the "innocuous-albeit-obnoxious behavior" as dangerous; they were treating the resistance of a legitimate authority backed by a legitimate law (even if you think it's silly) as dangerous. · Jun 2 at 10:32am
Every law enforcement officer has the option to offer grace at the offense of laws. If those officers were worth the salaries they are being paid, they would have shown judicious restraint and handled that situation much better than they did. My husband who was trained extensively in crowd control looked at that video and laughed out loud at the incompetence.
Feb '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Tom Meyer
Scott Reusser
The "throwing to the ground" part was because the the "dancers" refused to cooperate. Are you saying police should turn a blind eye toward minor offenses for fear that they might not get cooperation and would therefore need to use force? · Jun 2 at 7:35am
No, I'm arguing that minor offenses shouldn't be criminalized in the first place because -- once something is criminalized -- force is not only permissible but sometimes required for precisely the reason you state. · Jun 2 at 8:25am
How then do you propose to prevent our discourage minor offenses? Of course the best outcome would have been been for the staff at the memorial to remind the demonstrators of the rules and then for the demonstrators to accept the rule and move on. But some people just weren't willing to let it go at that; even if they disagreed with the silly rule then they should have petitioned their representative for change.
Feb '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
FeliciaB
Every law enforcement officer has the option to offer grace at the offense of laws. If those officers were worth the salaries they are being paid, they would have shown judicious restraint and handled that situation much better than they did. My husband who was trained extensively in crowd control looked at that video and laughed out loud at the incompetence. · Jun 2 at 10:36am
You're right. But we don't know from the clip Claire posted that they didn't make such an offer of grace. I suspect it would have been rejected in this case anyway.
Could they have shown more restraint? Sure. Could they have handled the situation differently or better? Probably. None of this makes them incompetent or authoritarian, though. None of this makes the demonstrators right or admirable.
Edited on June 2, 2011 at 7:48pmMay '10
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
They are incompetent when they can't control a "crowd" 4 arrestees. They are authoritarian and incompetent when they tell all of those shooting video that they have to cease and desist shooting video.
May '10
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
I plan on visiting the Jefferson Memorial this summer with my family. I guess I have to warn my expressive, jumping and dance prone 5 year old not to bust a move because he could be arrested by the State.
Jan '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Ed Gorz
How then do you propose to prevent our discourage minor offenses? Of course the best outcome would have been been for the staff at the memorial to remind the demonstrators of the rules and then for the demonstrators to accept the rule and move on. But some people just weren't willing to let it go at that; even if they disagreed with the silly rule then they should have petitioned their representative for change.
When something is criminalized, it's not supposed to be "discouraged"; it's prohibited with an implied use of force to back it up. Which is totally fine with me, so long as its limited to appropiate transgressions, which (I'd argue) this ain't.
Stipulating for a moment that the law is reasonable, I'd have recommended that the police fine the protestors for violating memorial regulations and tell them to voice any objections they have to the judge. That should have gotten the job done without harming anyone, causing a scene, or forcing the memorial to be evacuated. If the protestors refused, they could just log it in and include it in their (very damning) report.
Jan '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
What if the protestors refused to stop dancing or refused to show their id? How would the police have done any of your suggestions at that point. It seems to me that the dancers wouldn't have cooperated even the minimal amount needed to do what you advise. Mollie has already put up a video of what she deems a blood boiling display of civil rights abuse in a simple case where someone refused to show their id. How should the police respond when people show no cooperation, even on small matters? Just let the infraction slide? How many times or how long should they let it slide?
Feb '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
I think this confuses the issue- your 5 year-old wouldn't be arrested for...being a 5 year old (expressive, dancing, wiggling), instead you would be asked to calm him down and if that didn't work you would be asked to leave. Hopefully you wouldn't need to be asked because you are probably a polite and socially aware person and you would voluntarily leave if you couldn't calm your child down.
If you were a rude person who refused to first follow common decency and then refused to comply with the rules, you could probably end up getting arrested. If you resisted arrest things could get worse.
There are a few steps between "being a 5 year old" and getting arrested.
Jan '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
In case anyone isn't clear who these people are, the kissing couple are Medea Benjamin and Tighe Barry, professional protesters for Code Pink. I'd post the Google Images link but it's NSFW (off to scrub my eyes). Here they are being interviewed about this incident and declaring that they will be back.
We can hope and pray for the day this tyranny ends, a day when solemn memorials to the fathers of our nation will be safe for, um… dancing and make-out sessions.
Jan '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
BThompson
What if the protestors refused to stop dancing or refused to show their id? How would the police have done any of your suggestions at that point. It seems to me that the dancers wouldn't have cooperated even the minimal amount needed to do what you advise.
Well, in this particular case, (at least some of) the protestors' identities were known beforehand and the incident was recorded. How hard would it be to hold Kokesh in contempt if he refused the summons?
BTW, here is an 11 minute video that contains nearly the entire incident from two different cameras.
Edited on June 2, 2011 at 8:34pmFeb '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
I thought they controlled the demonstrators decently. What method would you have employed to control a "crowd" that wasn't interested in decency, rules, proper authority, or cooperation even if the incident arose because of a silly rule?
I agree on the video thing.
Feb '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Tom Meyer
BThompson
What if the protestors refused to stop dancing or refused to show their id? How would the police have done any of your suggestions at that point. It seems to me that the dancers wouldn't have cooperated even the minimal amount needed to do what you advise.
Well, in this particular case, (at least some of) the protestors' identities were known beforehand and the incident was recorded. How hard would it be to hold Kokesh in contempt if he refused the summons? · Jun 2 at 11:29am
Tom, that's just deferred confrontation, assuming the police really did know the protesters' identities beforehand. What if they refused to comply with whatever fine was eventually issued? At some point, the demonstrators need to comply with legitimate authority or face escalating consequences.
Jan '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
And here are the Jefferson Memorial smoochers (JMS)… ♪ in uniform and singing a catchy little tune. ♫
Jan '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
What information do you have that the police at the scene knew who any of these people were? Also, why should the police have any reasonable expectation that they could obtain and later identify any of these individuals from any video being shot? Maybe there are details I've missed, but it seems like you are assuming these police knew or should have known things they didn't or couldn't have.
Edited on June 2, 2011 at 8:38pmJan '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Kokesh is a public figure who has repeatedly stated -- on his website, on youtube, on facebook, etc. -- that he intended to do this. I knew about it beforehand and so did thousands of other people. What's more, the Court of Appeals decision had ruled against Oberwetter just 12 days before the incident.
Update: Hell, the body-slamming officer already knew Kokesh.
Edited on June 2, 2011 at 8:53pmMar '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
I have to wonder. Is there any public place sufficiently solemn, sufficiently dignified, sufficiently hallowed in which these clowns would think it inappropriate to inflict their narcissism on their fellow citizens?
Jan '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
You think all the cops should be aware of what every public person puts on their website and FB pages? Really? From the youtube video it seems the cop had encountered this DB before, but I don't think that proves he knew his name. Regardless, even if he did know the exact identity of Kokesh, the fact that this cop had already experienced Kokesh trying to create a disturbance and provoke the police in the past meant that the cop had reason not to give this group the benefit of the doubt regarding their peaceable intentions.
Edited on June 2, 2011 at 9:08pmJan '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Exactly, you think that fact maybe made cops extra sensitive and watchful for people trying to create a disturbance at the memorial? You think since the previous case involved 17 people, the cops might have been nervous that this would be a similarly sized group they would have difficulty controlling? This cop was trying to establish who was in the group, who was leading it, and what they were doing. He got no cooperation. If anything the previous case gave him reason to be concerned about what he might encounter.