What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Claire Berlinski, Ed. ·
June 2, 2011 at 3:49am
I'm ashamed that this happened in America:
This is wrong. We do not do this. Those memorials belong to us. We have a First Amendment. We don't make ordnances against dancing in celebration of the Founders. We don't arrest people for doing normal, happy things in public. What is this?
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Comments:
Jan '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
And you'd be wrong. If "solemnity's not your bag" don't go to a monument with all of the trappings of a temple, complete with iconic imagery and grandly displayed texts of the most profound writings of our greatest leaders. You seem to think there is some question as to what type of commemoration was intended here. The monument is obviously all about solemnity and respect. To pretend otherwise is foolishness.
In fact it's not. There are all kinds of limits to how we are allowed to "enjoy" our monuments, which if you're honest, you yourself will admit. The question is where we draw the line and how we enforce the line. I'm all for coming up with smarter ways to enforce it, but I won't abide the notion that the line doesn't exist.
Edited on June 2, 2011 at 4:50pmJan '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Basil Fawlty
I'd just like to see the whole thing so I don't have to "imagine" what drew all the cops and set off the arrests.
My guess is that you didn't miss very much.
Adam Kokesh -- the guy who gets body-slammed and an old college buddy of mine -- is a talk radio host from New Mexico and who had announced he was leading a group to dance at the Jefferson Memorial in protest of Oberwetter v Hillard. They were expecting something like this and Kokesh was hoping to get arrested.
That said, I completely agree with Claire that the forcible arrests in the video are disturbing. Police are there to protect and defend citizens, not to impose order with punches and body-slams. For all those supporting the police, stop for a moment to consider which was more disruptive and disturbing: the protestors dancing or the police throwing them to the ground?
Jan '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
That said, the police were put in an impossible situation by the DC Court of Appeals. Police powers to detain, arrest, and use force should be reserved for activities that harm the public, not silly dancing at the Jefferson Memorial. By forcing the cops to handle them roughly (though again, I can't see how anyone can justify the body-slam), Kokesh and the others underscored how foolish the law was in forcing the police to enforce such an idiotic law. As Radley Balko has written, police brutality is often the result of bad laws or procedures that give officers involved no good options.
By the way, did anyone else note how the officer refused to tell them what they'd be arrested for if they danced? Habeas corpus anyone?
May '10
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Tom Meyer
For all those supporting the police, stop for a moment to consider which was more disruptive and disturbing: the protestors dancing or the police throwing them to the ground? · Jun 2 at 7:24am
The "throwing to the ground" part was because the the "dancers" refused to cooperate. Are you saying police should turn a blind eye toward minor offenses for fear that they might not get cooperation and would therefore need to use force?
Mar '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Tom Meyer
Basil Fawlty
I'd just like to see the whole thing so I don't have to "imagine" what drew all the cops and set off the arrests.
My guess is that you didn't miss very much.
Adam Kokesh -- the guy who gets body-slammed and an old college buddy of mine -- is a talk radio host from New Mexico and who had announced he was leading a group to dance at the Jefferson Memorial in protest of Oberwetter v Hillard. They were expecting something like this and Kokesh was hoping to get arrested.
That said, I completely agree with Claire that the forcible arrests in the video are disturbing. Police are there to protect and defend citizens, not to impose order with punches and body-slams. For all those supporting the police, stop for a moment to consider which was more disruptive and disturbing: the protestors dancing or the police throwing them to the ground? · Jun 2 at 7:24am
I think what I might have missed were several reasonably polite police requests to the protesters to take their protest outside, and several disruptive and disturbing refusals by the protesters to comply.
May '10
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Tom Meyer
Adam Kokesh -- the guy who gets body-slammed and an old college buddy of mine -- is a talk radio host from New Mexico and who had announced he was leading a group to dance at the Jefferson Memorial in protest of Oberwetter v Hillard. They were expecting something like this and Kokesh was hoping to get arrested.
That said, I completely agree with Claire that the forcible arrests in the video are disturbing. Police are there to protect and defend citizens, not to impose order with punches and body-slams.
So it was a political demonstration. He expected to get arrested, yet was uncooperative with police. The police, in close physical encounters with suspects, need to use a level of force that provides them physical domination in order to minimize their own risk of injury. The police, who in general risk their lives to protect us, deserve compliance, and deserve a little deference from people who watch their encounters from a distance and with hindsight and who can't smell the sweat of struggle.
The blame for the level of force the police used lies entirely on Kokesh and his fellow protesters.
May '10
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
They were dancing in a goofy way, not hurting anyone, not threatening anyone, not doing a blessed thing that should cause anyone indigestion, no less harm.
Maybe, but you're still making no more than a subjective evaluation of manners, as am I, which is the point.
Two people dancing at a memorial for an hour or so? Annoying, but OK. Ten grandstanding hippies dancing wildly all day, spoiling the experience for other tourists? Geez, that would definitely warrant an intervention, no? But how is such an intervention to be made without a law of some sort?
Likewise, re your kissing-in-public example: Kissing your girl on a bus? Perfectly fine. Pawing at your girl on a bus? Inappropriate, but we'll let it go. Pawing at your girl inside her blouse and pants on a bus? Book 'em, Danno.
If we grant that there should be legal threshholds of tactlessness, then we're simply arguing degree, not the philosophical point of whether dancing or public affection or whatever should be matters of police interest.
Jan '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Mark Wilson
The police, who in general risk their lives to protect us, deserve compliance, and deserve a little deference from people who watch their encounters from a distance and with hindsight and who can't smell the sweat of struggle.
The blame for the level of force the police used lies entirely on Kokesh and his fellow protesters. · Jun 2 at 7:47am
I mostly agree with the first half of that, but not the second.
The police do risk their lives for our safety and deserve that kind of deference, but not unconditionally. Here the officers -- whom, again, I have some sympathy with -- were forced by law to treat innocuous-albeit-obnoxious behavior as if it were dangerous. This is an incredibly poor use of their resources and excessively violent.
Again, this is a case where police officers were required to act foolishly by a foolish law that criminalizes silly behavior. There's lots of blame to go around in this incident (some of the dancers were intentionally provocative and hurt their cause) but the real culprit is the Court of Appeals justices who think dancing warrants police intervention.
Dec '10
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Ed Gorz
I don't understand why you think it's a "right" to enjoy a public monument however you want, with safety being the only legitimate limiting factor. · Jun 2 at 7:20am
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Jan '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Scott Reusser
The "throwing to the ground" part was because the the "dancers" refused to cooperate. Are you saying police should turn a blind eye toward minor offenses for fear that they might not get cooperation and would therefore need to use force? · Jun 2 at 7:35am
No, I'm arguing that minor offenses shouldn't be criminalized in the first place because -- once something is criminalized -- force is not only permissible but sometimes required for precisely the reason you state.
Mar '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
From Oberwetter v Hillard, the court decision that was being protested:
"For three-and-a half decades, the Park Service Regulations have sought to
“protect[] legitimate security and park value interests,
including the maintenance of an atmosphere of calm,
tranquility, and reverence in the vicinity of major memorials.”
41 Fed. Reg. 12,879, 12,880 (Mar. 29, 1976). The
Regulations specifically identify the interior of the Jefferson
Memorial as a place where visitors may not engage in
expressive activity that “has the effect, intent or propensity to
draw a crowd or onlookers.” 36 C.F.R. § 7.96(g)(1)(i).
Visitors to the Memorial interior must ascend a stairway,
traverse a portico, and pass a sign that says “Quiet / Respect
Please” before entering. The Park Police patrol the area, and
Oberwetter has pled no facts suggesting that they allow
visitors to engage in disruptive demonstrations. Having thus
created and maintained the Memorial as a commemorative
site, the government is under no obligation to open it up as a
stage for the roving dance troupes of the world—even those
celebrating Mr. Jefferson."
Amen.
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Basil Fawlty: From Oberwetter v Hillard, the court decision that was being protested:
"Visitors to the Memorial interior must ascend a stairway,
traverse a portico, and pass a sign that says “Quiet / Respect
Please” before entering. The Park Police patrol the area, and
Oberwetter has pled no facts suggesting that they allow
visitors to engage in disruptive demonstrations. Having thus
created and maintained the Memorial as a commemorative
site, the government is under no obligation to open it up as a
stage for the roving dance troupes of the world—even those
celebrating Mr. Jefferson."
Amen. · Jun 2 at 8:33am
When I read this decision, I didn't respond with an AMEN. For one thing, Oberwetter and other dancers were quiet -- they used headphones. For another, no one is asking that the gov't set up a stage or open up a stage for free humans to enjoy their freedom. Some of us merely wonder why the government should use our precious resources to shut down such expressions.
The most bizarre thing about this is that the Jefferson Memorial is actually a site for group expression all the time. This ruling made no sense.
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
For the freedom lovers here, here's another infuriating video of a hearing-impaired man being harassed by ignorant law enforcement officials in Maryland for his completely legal hobby of picture taking.
The civil liberties violations going down here are making my blood boil.
Aug '10
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
If I was feeling curmudgeonly, I might be with Midget... But dancing weirdly at a public monument that is a monument, among other things, to freedom of expression? For God's sake. Who takes offense at that?
Eh, before I get the reputation as a crusty, serpently curmudgeon (well, more of a curmudgeon than I actually am), I'd like to point out that I like dancing, too. A lot.
However, this dance was obviously offensive to many, which is why I suggested disapproval (as opposed to police force) as a remedy.
More to the point, other commenters informed me that these folks weren't dancing simply in order to dance, but in order to provoke a scene and make an exhibition of their ensuing victimhood. I think that's an important difference.
Sort of like the difference between me practicing the Queen of the Night aria simply because I love the piece and me practicing it because I want the high notes to annoy the neighbors, so I can nurse a grievance against them when they ask me to knock it off.
Edited on June 2, 2011 at 5:57pmMar '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Mollie Hemingway, Ed.
When I read this decision, I didn't respond with an AMEN. For one thing, Oberwetter and other dancers were quiet -- they used headphones. Jun 2 at 8:39am
So without the headphones, they should have been tossed out? The question is not whether they were noisy, but whether they were likely to draw a "crowd or onlookers" and, thereby, detract from the atmosphere of the memorial.
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Basil Fawlty
So without the headphones, they should have been tossed out? The question is not whether they were noisy, but whether they were likely to draw a "crowd or onlookers" and, thereby, detract from the atmosphere of the memorial. · Jun 2 at 8:56am
Well, they (Oberwetter, et. al.) were there at that high-traffic time of midnight, so I guess you have a point there.
Edited on June 2, 2011 at 6:05pmJan '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Why is the monument even open at that time? I guess the question is how many other people were actually there and whether the police used their discretion appropriately. But I don't think there really is a legitimate question as to whether the ordinance is reasonable or whether the police should enforce it.
Mar '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Mollie Hemingway, Ed.
Basil Fawlty
So without the headphones, they should have been tossed out? The question is not whether they were noisy, but whether they were likely to draw a "crowd or onlookers" and, thereby, detract from the atmosphere of the memorial. · Jun 2 at 8:56am
Well, they (Oberwetter, et. al.) were there at that high-traffic time of midnight, so I guess you have a point there. · Jun 2 at 9:04am
Edited on Jun 02 at 09:05 am
I believe the court pointed out that it was the nature of the activity, and not the number of potential annoyees who happened to be around at the time, that was dispositive. Personally, I put interpretive dancers in the same category as mimes. They should be free to practice their vice in private, in places where people pay to see them, and nowhere else.
Jan '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
I disagree that the nature of the activity isn't contingent on whether there is a potential audience or not.
“has the effect, intent or propensity to draw a crowd or onlookers.”
An act can only effect a crowd or onlookers if there are potential onlookers. The act can only have the propensity to draw onlookers if there are or there are likely to be potential onlookers present. One can only intend to draw onlookers if one can reasonably expect onlookers to be present.
Edited on June 2, 2011 at 6:27pmMay '10
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Who are some of you people?! When I read Claire's post, saw the video and read the article she linked to, I was so angry I wanted to cry. Perhaps I am having such a visceral reaction to the police thuggery (well, thuggery and absolute incompetence) because I've seen authoritarian thuggery in countries less free than ours.
The law and appeals court ruling are an utter disgrace. Both treat our citizenry like children.
The State cops were a bunch of weenies who were in over their heads. No self-respecting cop would handcuff people and then go wandering about trying to find the folks they handcuffed to put them back in a subservient position. That situation should have never escalated. When it did, law enforcement were just a bunch of Keystone Cops. Law enforcement failed to do their jobs correctly. Whatdaymean "Attaboy?!" Those officers should have been FIRED!
BTW, before y'all start jumping on me for being anti-cop, I'm married to a retired one. My brother is one, and I worked with cops for 5 years many moons ago. My husband agrees that the cops were a bunch of buffoons.