What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Claire Berlinski, Ed. ·
June 2, 2011 at 3:49am
I'm ashamed that this happened in America:
This is wrong. We do not do this. Those memorials belong to us. We have a First Amendment. We don't make ordnances against dancing in celebration of the Founders. We don't arrest people for doing normal, happy things in public. What is this?
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Comments:
May '10
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Mollie Hemingway, Ed.: For the freedom lovers here, here's another infuriating video of a hearing-impaired man being harassed by ignorant law enforcement officials in Maryland for his completely legal hobby of picture taking.
The civil liberties violations going down here are making my blood boil. · Jun 2 at 8:54am
Once again, idiot law enforcement on parade. How do idiots like that get hired?!
Jan '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Thanks for the emotion, the name calling, and the expressions of righteous indignation. They are all duly noted. Do you have an actual argument to make?
Jan '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
What does the term "peaceably" there mean to you. Because I'm pretty sure that a couple hundred years of case law has defined it as something much less libertarian than you would expect or like it to mean. Loud music has long been determined to be a disturbance of the peace, for example.
Mar '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
I propose that this thread now be retired in honor of the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator Assessment Questionnaire.
Jul '10
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Has "dancing" been defined?
Did I simply turn around or did I just perform a pirouette and should be asked to leave or face arrest?
May '10
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
BThompson
Thanks for the emotion, the name calling, and the expressions of righteous indignation. They are all duly noted. Do you have an actual argument to make? · Jun 2 at 9:32am
Sorry, I didn't realize this was just an arguments website. Hmh. My bad.
BTW, what name did I call you? Or are you upset I was describing the incompetent law enforcement personnel in the video(s)? Again, I apologize if I get my dander up to such a level as to be vilely offended at incompetents in positions of authority. I love and respect proper law enforcement authority so much that I brook no excuses for those who fail utterly at their sacred (yes, they have to swear an oath before they do their jobs) duty.
May '10
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
BThompson
What does the term "peaceably" there mean to you. Because I'm pretty sure that a couple hundred years of case law has defined it as something much less libertarian than you would expect or like it to mean. Loud music has long been determined to be a disturbance of the peace, for example. · Jun 2 at 9:38am
What about no audible music at all? What about silent interpretive dance?
Aug '10
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Jimmy Carter:
Did I simply turn around or did I just perform a pirouette and should be asked to leave or face arrest?
Good point, JC.
Jan '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
It's not. But if you want to express such contempt for some of us and imply our moral inferiority for defending "idiots," "buffoons," "thugs," "keystone cops," and people who are "an utter disgrace", I think you'd want to back it up with something substantive.
You didn't call me a name, but I don't think your characterization of the people in the video is really justified, so I don't mind asking you to defend your vitriol against them. I'm sure, to use your formulation, that this website isn't just for defending against ad hominems directed to yourself.
As for defending myself, though, as I said before, you didn't veil your contempt and opinions of my and others moral worth very successfully. So again, if you want to impugn our character in that way, it's not unreasonable to expect some substance to back it up.
Jul '10
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
"Put your hands behind your head. Put your hands behind your head."
Whoomp! To the ground with you. It was clear the gentleman was resisting arrest.
If you think that was excessive, you probably don't know any LEOs and should take the opportunity for a "Ride Along" so you can see what LEOs have to deal with on a day to day basis.
Jan '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
My point wasn't to show that only loud music can also be considered disturbing the peace. It was to show that what is "peacable" depends on the context and setting, and our courts have ruled all sorts of things that fall well, well short of harming others as disturbing the peace.
In a context where quiet contemplation and respect toward the subject of the monument is expected, it's reasonable to hold that creating a distracting and strange display would upset people who are there to quietly admire and contemplate Jefferson's work and character. I don't think many here would accept flash mobs jumping around in a public library even if they were being quiet.
Mar '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Or are you upset I was describing the incompetent law enforcement personnel in the video(s)? Again, I apologize if I get my dander up to such a level as to be vilely offended at incompetents in positions of authority.
I just recognized several of the most brutal cops in the video. We all went to the same English boarding school! Please don't tell Claire.
May '10
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Michael and BThompson, I do know law enforcement personnel. I've lived with one for over 18 years. I've also gone on ride-alongs. Additionally, I've worked in a police department for 5 years. When I'm in a better mood and not so riled up about disgraceful, law enforcement idiots, I'll tell you some funny stories of searches and shutting up belligerent drunks, and soliciting confessions from murderers I've have to do. Is is my 20 + years of close interactions with law enforcement that inform my opinions of the idiots in the video(s).
I'm simply stunned at the unquestioning support for idiotic State cops. Just because they wear a uniform, does not make them unilaterally correct in all decisions. Just because a law was passed and unanimously upheld by an appeals court doesn't mean that law is right or just.
And just to be clear, BThompson. I never communicated my contempt for those who saw no problem with the cops. I communicated my shock. I'm sorry if you misunderstood my righteous indignation against buffoonish law enforcement as contempt for you.
May '10
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
BThompson
I don't think many here would accept flash mobs jumping around in a public library even if they were being quiet. · Jun 2 at 10:05am
By their very definition, flash mobs have an ending point and do not last very long. So, what's the harm in a flash mob doing a show in a library? I, for one, would like to see a flash mob show on the establishment of the Library of Congress take place in... The Library of Congress. And have it video taped and go viral.
May '10
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Basil Fawlty
Or are you upset I was describing the incompetent law enforcement personnel in the video(s)? Again, I apologize if I get my dander up to such a level as to be vilely offended at incompetents in positions of authority.
I just recognized several of the most brutal cops in the video. We all went to the same English boarding school! Please don't tell Claire. · Jun 2 at 10:06am
Good one! :D :D :D
Jan '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Viator
Detained for photography
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iMr76atjUA · Jun 2 at 6:46am
Sickening. I can understand the arguments that the 'slovenly' dancers were provoking a confrontation, but how does taking photos of a light-rail trail warrant this kind of treatment for a mild-mannered and mostly cooperative citizen with an interest in trains? (I say mostly because he felt, as I would, disinclined to give them his I.D. when they were bullying him, not citing specific violations.) Is their behavior based on actual law? They cited the [USA] PATRIOT Act, which makes this one of the few times I've actually seen the "oh noes, police state!" complaint make sense.
Mar '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
FeliciaB:
I'm simply stunned at the unquestioning support for idiotic State cops.
I believe they were federal Park Police. Let's keep our idiots straight, here.
Jan '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
I don't think the support has been unquestioning, certainly not mine. And I don't think anyone has really argued that, "Just because they wear a uniform," cops are "unilaterally correct in all decisions."
FeliciaB: And just to be clear, BThompson. I never communicated my contempt for those who saw no problem with the cops. I communicated my shock. I'm sorry if you misunderstood my righteous indignation against buffoonish law enforcement as contempt for you. · Jun 2 at 10:16am
Thanks for the apology, I think. I'd hope you can see how your remarks come off as more than "shock", though, and I also hope that you aren't apologizing because I'm unable to understand you. Because pointing out my shortcomings isn't really a way to apologize to me.
In fact, I don't really need an apology. Simply an argument or substantive response to the actual points and arguments we've presented, instead of the strawman you put forth above, would be great.
Edited on June 2, 2011 at 7:31pmFeb '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
KarlUB
Ed Gorz
I don't understand why you think it's a "right" to enjoy a public monument however you want, with safety being the only legitimate limiting factor. · Jun 2 at 7:20am
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. · Jun 2 at 8:21am
Karl, your reference doesn't answer my question. You do have freedom of speech and the right to peaceably assemble; neither of those things means that you get to speak or assemble wherever you want.
Jan '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
That makes one us.