What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Claire Berlinski, Ed. ·
June 2, 2011 at 3:49am
I'm ashamed that this happened in America:
This is wrong. We do not do this. Those memorials belong to us. We have a First Amendment. We don't make ordnances against dancing in celebration of the Founders. We don't arrest people for doing normal, happy things in public. What is this?
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Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
What can you imagine that might have justified that scene? I sure can't imagine anything plausible, given what we can see. I see no reference to anything that happened before in the court's judgment. I see some goofy doofuses dancing, then getting arrested. That's plain as daylight. If dancing like a goofy doofus at a public monument is against the law, then the law is an ass.
May '10
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
There's a context in which it should be illegal: Doing it in a way that interferes with, say, an ambulance crew trying to perform CPR. There's a context in which it's unmannerly--doing it at the wrong kind of concert, as you suggest.
So you really think dancing in the aisles at Severance Hall in Cleveland during Beethoven's Ninth is no more than "unmannerly" and doesn't warrant being addressed by security? I find that hard to believe.
It is possible to enforce tact in certain rare contexts without being a fascist.
Edited on June 2, 2011 at 2:07pmRe: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Scott Reusser
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
There's a context in which it should be illegal: Doing it in a way that interferes with, say, an ambulance crew trying to perform CPR. There's a context in which it's unmannerly--doing it at the wrong kind of concert, as you suggest.
So you really think dancing in the aisles at Severance Hall in Cleveland during Beethoven's Ninth is no more than "unmannerly" and doesn't warrant being addressed by security? I find that hard to believe.
It is possible to enforce tact in certain rare contexts without being a fascist. · Jun 2 at 5:06am
Edited on Jun 02 at 05:07 am
Slightly off topic, but this reminded me of the old joke about Lawrence Olivier and the drunk who demanded he sign "Melancholy Baby." It's not appropriate for Ricochet, so you'll just have to Google it.
I do note that the joke doesn't end with the drunk being slammed to the ground and handcuffed, because that wouldn't be funny.
Mar '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
What can you imagine that might have justified that scene? I sure can't imagine anything plausible, given what we can see. I see no reference to anything that happened before in the court's judgment. I see some goofy doofuses dancing, then getting arrested. That's plain as daylight. If dancing like a goofy doofus at a public monument is against the law, then the law is an ass. · Jun 2 at 4:35am
I'm pretty sure this episode was recorded from beginning to end by the "performance" group. I'd just like to see the whole thing so I don't have to "imagine" what drew all the cops and set off the arrests. And suppose the goofy doofuses added pelvic thrusts to their dance routines, or added a "God hates fags" chant? I hope you're not suggesting that the police should discriminate based on the content of the self-expression they observe and interfere only with self-expression that offends them (or Claire Berlinski). The law may be a ass, but it's also the law.
Monty Python had the protest routine down pat.
Sep '10
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
This is two very bad marks for the DC park police. The first occurred at around 9 p.m. on a warm April night in 2007 when my elderly mother and elderly aunt and sister and I tried to get close to the Lincoln Memorial to see it lit up at night and inadvertently went the wrong way (where tour buses only are allowed) and the police immediately turned on their siren and, after an unnecessarily sophomoric "conversation" between the cop (this guy was no officer and no gentleman) and my sister, he ticketed her. I bet there are jillions of similar stories, which is why I'm not surprised this absurd thing happened at the Jefferson Memorial.
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
I'm fine with asking anyone to leave private property because their behavior is annoying, and if it's your property, you get to define "annoying." I'm fine with calling security to throw them out if they refuse. But this is a public monument in the nation's capitol--to Jefferson, no less! They were dancing in a goofy way, not hurting anyone, not threatening anyone, not doing a blessed thing that should cause anyone indigestion, no less harm. What do sensible, civilized people do when they see that? They smile and say, "Enjoy yourself!" If the very sight of people with a bit of boogie in their butts ruins your monument, you need to titrate up or change the medication.
Feb '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
In public spheres some freedoms can be disqualified in the name of public benefits.
Most of the members who commented here used the word ¨provocateurs¨.
I am afraid that the word ¨provocation¨ is quite subjective. I don't see no provocation, no violence no insult in here.
To see the matter in a new light, if freedoms are going to be disqualified in the name of public benefits it should be appropriate to proportionality principle. Arresting someone for such an act doesn't seem to my legal mind fair.
By the way just to inform: A flashmob action also happened in Istanbul last year in Taksim Square in front of Republic Memorial. Hundreds of people were hitting each other with pillows. Guess how many arrested ? None.
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Basil Fawlty
And suppose the goofy doofuses added pelvic thrusts to their dance routines
Monty Python had the protest routine down pat. · Jun 2 at 5:53am
Heaven forfend! Next thing you know men will dance with women and this nation will be destroyed by the decadence! Dancing will ruin America! We must stamp out public dancing now, and send all pelvic thrusters to the gallows!
Come on, folks! How can anyone be defending this? They were dancing.
Apr '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Detained for photography
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iMr76atjUA
Feb '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Part of the response has to have something to do with the fact that these folks were from Code Pink. Code Pink is left wing enough that it can cause a gut level response in many of us.
Mar '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
Basil Fawlty
And suppose the goofy doofuses added pelvic thrusts to their dance routines
Monty Python had the protest routine down pat. · Jun 2 at 5:53am
Heaven forfend! Next thing you know men will dance with women and this nation will be destroyed by the decadence! Dancing will ruin America! We must stamp out public dancing now, and send all pelvic thrusters to the gallows!
Come on, folks! How can anyone be defending this? They were dancing. · Jun 2 at 6:12am
Let the grinding begin! I'm off with my dance partner to Arlington Cemetery. See you all at the Tomb of the Unknowns.
Jan '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
I think people defend the cops in some way because the context of this is much bigger than, "they were just dancing." I think people want that to be acknowledged and recognition for the really difficult spot these nimrods put the cops in. There is obviously a better way to handle this, and I hope the park police devise a response that defuses and ends deliberate acts of disruption, however relatively innocuous they may seem, in a more restrained yet effective manner.
But the fact is there are limits to self-expression, even at public venues. Your right to express yourself does not supersede my right to experience a public monument in the manner the creators intended. And deliberately trying to expose the gaps in public safety procedures for the purpose of undermining public safety administration is wrong. The reason gaps in the policy exist is that we rely on people's common sense and common decency so we don't have to write rules for every last possible type of behavior and become truly fascist. Making the deliberate suspension of your common sense and respect for others a matter of principle and a right you want respected is nonsense.
Feb '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Claire, I'm really not following you here. Does living in America mean that we get to do whatever we want wherever we want? Of course not. Several people here have tried to establish the principle that free speech or even just basic liberty can be subject to reasonable limits, but you seem to be resisting even that principle.What if they decided to perform at Arlington Cemetery or at the Bull Run battlefield?
Aug '10
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Claire
You have been punked by Medea Benjamin, one of the most loathsome characters in the political landscape of the left. Her actions were those of a normally provocative protester, but modified somehow by her presence in her friend's Obama's town.
Her support of the Gaza Freedom march is certainly indefensible, her statements supporting the death of our soldiers ,I think, is cause enough that any her future actions be discredited, along with her public persona, ad infinitum.
Dancing, passing out posies, helping Helen Thomas across a street.....don't believe anything this woman participates in. Her cause ,among others, is the destruction of Israel. Her leisure activity may be civil disobedience, but Gandhi she ain't.
Sep '10
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
Basil Fawlty
Come on, folks! How can anyone be defending this? They were dancing. · Jun 2 at 6:12am
If you intend to protest a silly law, you should be prepared to accept the consequences (citations and/or arrest) and plead your case to the judge.
Ignoring, mocking, and resisting law enforcement is something you just don't do.
Edited on June 2, 2011 at 4:07pmMay '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
I see no problem with laws against public demonstrations that are ideologically neutral. Someone doing an impromptu sashay at the memorial is not going to disrupt anyone. A flash dance, however, is not impromptu. They are usually pretty lame but are planned and rehearsed. There is no reason to exempt a flash dance from the requirement to get a permit.
However, the park police looked like a bunch of idiots. Idiots with badges, that is. And that's a dangerous combination.
Dec '10
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
BThompson:
But the fact is there are limits to self-expression, even at public venues. Your right to express yourself does not supersede my right to experience a public monument in the manner the creators intended.
Actually, I would say that one's right to express one's self does supersede your right to experience a public monument in the manner in which you perceive the creator's to have intended.
It is an American's right to enjoy a public monument however he or she wants, assuming their enjoyment does not present a danger to others in the area. If solemnity is not your bag, that is your prerogative.
The fact those Code Pink malcontents were exploiting a silly law to create a disturbance by inviting police action means there is a problem with the law. As already pointed out: If their sole goal is to create a disturbance, make them create one that clearly demands police intervention.
Feb '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Also, here's a grab bag of responses to several angles mentioned:
Feb '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Two items:
(1) Skokie Nazi Party* flash mobs mall shoppers.
(2) Provocateur, in blatantly political act, punished in accordance with the law.
(*For those who want to split hairs, I’m not actually sure this was the Nazi Party. It’s so hard to tell with these things.)
Feb '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
KarlUB
It is an American's right to enjoy a public monument however he or she wants, assuming their enjoyment does not present a danger to others in the area. If solemnity is not your bag, that is your prerogative.
. · Jun 2 at 7:11am
I don't understand why you think it's a "right" to enjoy a public monument however you want, with safety being the only legitimate limiting factor.