What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Claire Berlinski, Ed. ·
June 2, 2011 at 3:49am
I'm ashamed that this happened in America:
This is wrong. We do not do this. Those memorials belong to us. We have a First Amendment. We don't make ordnances against dancing in celebration of the Founders. We don't arrest people for doing normal, happy things in public. What is this?
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Comments:
Apr '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
We shouldn't have a first amendment if it prohibits things like this. You exhibit a basic level of decorum, especially in a public place, and you do not act as disrespectfully to police as the people in that video did. Any property owner --- even the federal government --- has the right to kick out people who it feels are acting in an inappropriate fashion.
And, frankly, I didn't see any brutality in the video at all. Arresting people, especially for breaking the law, is not brutality, and neither is demanding that policemen be given the respect they deserve. If the police used anything more than words in that video, I didn't see it.
Apr '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Claire, Robert VerBruggen had some interesting thoughts about this incident in The Corner yesterday.
Dec '10
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
And Robert VerBruggen was full-on wrong. Let's assume the worst: These people were intentionally mocking a silly rule and provoking a bad scene for some inchoate PR reason.
But the fact remains that the law is silly. With silly rules like that-- "No dancing at the Lincoln Memorial"-- we create a legal culture where no adult human being can possibly go a week without doing something illegal. Therefore our freedom is predicated on administrative whim.
Dancing, private poker games, very small amounts of soft drugs, banning smoking in parks, recording school board meetings, etc... Laws prohibiting these things are justified with the argument "Hey, those rules only exist so we can selectively enforce them to punish people that need punishing for worse things we can't prove."
Well, the answer is for law enforcement to do their jobs better. Not criminalize all of us. Because when the law is selectively enforced you don't live in a Republic anymore. You live in some sort of oligarchy.
Claire's point stands: If we saw such video out of Egypt or Turkey we would be mortified. (Not that it would be our business to intervene.)
Apr '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Karl, I was neither endorsing what VerBruggen had to say nor disagreeing with Claire's point. If anything, the video linked in the Corner post is even more damning to the Park Police than the video posted by Claire. I was merely pointing out that another thoughtful conservative had written about it.
I absolutely agree that the law in question (along with countless others like it) is ridiculous bordering on sinister.
Jul '10
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
KarlUB:
Claire's point stands: If we saw such video out of Egypt or Turkey we would be mortified. (Not that it would be our business to intervene.) · Jun 1 at 7:23pm
I agree with your (and Claire's) basic point whole-heartedly. No dancing at the Jefferson Memorial? Who's in charge? The pastor from Footloose?
But it's no "virginity test."
Edited on June 2, 2011 at 4:33amMay '10
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Claire: "What is this?" This is definitely a "[expletive] Moment."
And Jonathan #1, you said, "...and you do not act as disrespectfully to police as the people in that video did." From what I saw on the video, there was no disrespect at all. I did, however, see the Park Police pick a guy up and slam him to the ground (around 1:03). I saw the police chasing people just to either get them out or to handcuff them.
I share Claire's sentiments.
Edited on June 2, 2011 at 7:35pmApr '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Nice.
Wish I'd thought of that. :-)
Feb '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
The decorum point is debatable. One aspect of this incident, as well as in innumerable others, that is particularly infuriating is the police saying that if you record them you will be arrested. If a policeman isn't violating the law he has no reason to fear being recorded. If he fears being recorded, he is automatically suspect.
Edited on June 2, 2011 at 4:45amJan '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Nov '10
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
I'm not certain which part of this video annoys me the most- the obnoxious behavior of the slovenly "defendant" and his girlfriend; the overreaction of the police officers; tourists' obsession with filming this spectacle while standing in the middle of one of America's greatest monuments.
Edited on June 2, 2011 at 5:26amOct '10
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Simply an arrogant display of disrespect from what one might call Adult Children.
If there were politics involved here, so much the worse.
There was a day when if someone behaved poorly, they were simply asked to refrain or leave the location.
Please forgive me here while one provides a solution. Ask them to stop politlely, should they mock the officer... Taser them and drag them to the gutter.
Perhaps that is what it takes to instill respect in Adult Children.
Feb '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
I think Claire might have too many images of the PKK putting babies on spikes to compare this with Egypt or Turkey. Sure the law is silly and this was a blatant provocation but I think the point is that we don't do this, this is not endemic of police brutality but of one police officers loss of control. He has made an ass out of himself, I'm sure he'll received a demotion and make a public apology, but what else?
On the other hand there was a time that to blatantly taunt law enforcement (silly law or not) meant you called down a certain amount of wrath upon yourself. If you steal a policeman's cap, put it on and run around, you should expect some rough treatment.
Aug '10
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Whatever it is, this isn't "dancing in celebration of the Founders". And however happy dancing may be, this isn't "normal" under the circumstances.
The flash mob mentality is fundamentally about the self-righteous, self-absorbed exercise of power over others. While everyone else was there to experience the Jefferson Memorial, these "dancers" wanted to force everyone else to experience them, like it or not. The secondary point was to violate the decorum everyone else implicitly accepted and appreciated, and to force authority to resort to the enforcement of some minor rule that can be made to look silly--and all this for the benefit of their own inflated egos.
If they deserve First Amendment protection, it must be in the same grudging spirit that one might extend protection to Larry Flynt or the Skokie Nazi Party. I certainly don't feel bad about what happened to them. I hope they have to sell the heavily bumper stickered Microbus to pay the fine.
Feb '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
“This is wrong. We do not do this.”
I’m thankful for people like Claire who have not lost hope, who are still mortified by this sort of thing rather than just depressed by it.
But I am not one of them. It isn’t true that we do not do this. Of course we do. It’s right there on video. The “adult child” made his point: this is America; it is.
It still remains true that there is less protection of liberty elsewhere in the world. But when I am near the monuments here in DC, I feel less awe for the liberty that was won than I feel dread for what can so easily be lost.
Sep '10
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Claire: if it had happened in Turkey, the nightsticks would have been swingin'. I agree completely with VerBruggen: these knuckleheads wanted to get arrested, and the park police obliged them. Okay - it's a dumb law; should just be a park rule that results in expulsion if transgressed. If they had simply left after being asked to, there would have been no arrests, no YouTube, no violence.
And another thing: "normal, happy things?" Not where I'm from. It's a public space; you have to impose order somehow, and civilized people follow the rules and customs. If you allow this weird, shuffling zombie dance that the guy was doing, then you have to allow me to perform a sweaty, grunting kata, with lots of yelling.
Feb '11
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
It may occasionally be difficult to tell the difference between a flash mob and hard core pornography, but I think those occasions usually involve deafening earplugs and blindfolds.
May '10
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
We place some restrictions on public places precisely so the rest of the public can enjoy them. A tourist could well expect, having taken a trip across the country to see the Memorial, that they be able to do so without doofuses engaged in some performance art/protest. It's conceivable that some restriction is placed on videotaping such performances, or videotaping in general.
Assuming that a rule or law was being violated -- the merits of which we can debate about -- then it seems like the police's job to get people to stop violating the rule/law or get arrested. And when they start yelling and goof-walking around in the face of arrest, then it probably rises to disorderly conduct.
The police officer who threw the guy down seemed to be trying to arrest him, and the guy was making it difficult for him to do it. Some words were no doubt being spoken, and it probably involved instructions on being still, putting wrists together, kneeling, etc.
On the other hand, people should absolutely be allowed to whip off their lens covers when documenting public officials in the performance of their duties, and this especially applies to arrests.
Dec '10
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Where were the citizens to whom the memorial belongs? Why do we rely on officials of the state to enforce the standards of decency and decorum that we as a society determine to be appropriate, especially for a place considered just short of sacred? Perhaps it's time we put down the video cameras and take up responsibility for ourselves once again instead of relying on the government to do all the needful things of a civil society.
May '10
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
Ottoman Umpire: We place some restrictions on public places precisely so the rest of the public can enjoy them. A tourist could well expect, having taken a trip across the country to see the Memorial, that they be able to do so without doofuses engaged in some performance art/protest. It's conceivable that some restriction is placed on videotaping such performances, or videotaping in general.
Assuming that a rule or law was being violated -- the merits of which we can debate about -- then it seems like the police's job to get people to stop violating the rule/law or get arrested. And when they start yelling and goof-walking around in the face of arrest, then it probably rises to disorderly conduct.
...
I agree with Ottoman and Steven and, especially, The King Prawn. There is so much grey area that bothers me about this, but I'm not going to fault the officers who were clearly baited and it seems as though it was within their right to arrest these idiots. I have to believe there's more behind this. Something happened before the video taping that escalated the situation.
May '10
Re: What Would You Say if I Reported That This Had Happened in Turkey?
These people weren't "dancing in celebration of the founders"; they were being obnoxious and trying to provoke, at the expense of the others who were there to enjoy the memorial. Asking them to stop, and then arresting them when they refused was perfectly appropriate....just as it would be if they were doing such nonsense within the Smithsonian or in a concert hall.
Way to go, cops.