What Women Want
Anyone else as off-put as I am by Dennis Prager's NRO piece, What Do Women Want?
What a woman most wants is to be loved by a man she admires.
I am well aware that to say this today is akin to announcing that the sun revolves around the earth. For half a century, we have been told that what women most want is professional success and equality. And to the extent that a modern “liberated” woman does admit to wanting a man to love, she will say that she wants a “partner” who is her “equal.”
Now, just a minute. Hang on a sec there.
Let's ignore the irritatingly bad comparison between political correctness and settled science and begin by noting that there is nothing particularly bold or startling in his thesis. In fact, in itself, it's almost completely uncontroversial. (Anyone want to make a case that women don't want to be loved by a man they admire?)
Prager renders it controversial, though, by suggesting that there's a contradiction between wanting to admire our husbands and wanting to be considered their "equal partners".
And girls and women have been told — or more accurately, have had drummed into them — that equality means that both sexes are essentially the same (except for the physical differences) and therefore want the same things. Equality and sameness have been rendered synonymous. That is why she cannot say — and ideally wouldn’t even admit to herself — that she wants a man to admire; that would be “sexist” as it would imply an unequal relationship.
The efforts of the equity feminists not withstanding, I don't think too many women are laboring under the illusion that equality means that both sexes are essentially the same. Nor do we imagine that admiring our husbands implies an unequal relationship.
But here's the thing: Prager seems to think it does. He seems to be insinuating something that he can't quite bring himself say out loud. Something like this: "In marriage, everyone is happier and better off when the woman is in a subordinate position--a position in which she looks up to her husband as her leader and is cherished and taken care of by him."
That would be a daring and controversial thing to say. (It would also be wrong, IMO.)
His attempt to anticipate the charge only confirms its basic justice.
It is problematic enough to say that a woman most wants a man. But that pales compared to the claim that she most wants a man whom she admires. That seems to affirm gender inequality. The image it conjures up is of a woman looking up to her man as if he were some sort of lord and she his serf.
Yet any woman who believes that she is married to an admirable man would laugh at such a dismissal. Admiring one’s husband doesn’t render a woman a serf. It renders her fortunate.
The truth is that almost nothing — including job success — elevates a woman in her own eyes as much as being loved by a husband whom she admires.
So, not a serf, but not an equal partner either. Got it.
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Oct '10
Re: What Women Want
Oct '10
Re: What Women Want
katievs: There goes my heart again.
I'm so sorry, Mike! I really think there's no worse misery on earth than the sense of betrayal by someone we love.
Please don't give up hope! There are so many good women out there who want just what you want.
There's somebody for you, "better than you could ask or imagine." I believe it.
And, when you find her, I want an invitation to the wedding.
I promise to bring a case of wine to offset costs and add to the general merriment. · Dec 29 at 3:23pm
Should that come to pass, your invitation will be on its way, Katie. Thanks for the encouragement!
FeliciaB: There are a lot of women like me, but sadly, they're already married.
Just kidding! · Dec 29 at 3:32pm
Hahaha!
Well Felicia, I'm sure I can convince some decent girl to put up with this rough and rowdy Texan! ;)
May '10
Re: What Women Want
Cas Balicki
katievs
It's love.
It's about breaking free of the tyranny of egocentrism, and living for and with another person, come what may. Having a companion through time. Having someone who understands you completely, admirers you, believes in what you have to give the world, wants to see you do it, wants to help you become the person you were meant to be. Someone who sees your shortcomings, accepts them, bears with them, compensates for them, and still finds you basically wonderful. And someone who needs your love and fidelity to thrive...
It all sounds horribly hackneyed, I know. But it's true. · Dec 29 at 7:46am
This does't sound hackneyed (your word). It sounds naive, and unworkable. And yes no one should make compromises to marry. · Dec 29 at 8:13am
Seriously? I feel bad for you, Cas, that you think that. I have exactly with my husband what Katievs just described. And my husband would describe it the same way. I think you've just never met your soul mate.
May '10
Re: What Women Want
I don't think you need to be married to be happy, but *most* people do want love and companionship and the most traditional form of that is to find a mate and get married. There's nothing wrong with not wanting a companion, but it's the exception, not the rule. Of course, the worst decision is to be in a bad relationship, which you, unfortunately, experienced. I think that would suck my soul right out of me.
Your other question was who we would be had we not married. Since I can't know the answer to that my guess would be that I would be more selfish and one-dimensional. My husband and I complement each other well and I'm deeply fulfilled as a wife and mother. I achieved much of what I wanted to in my career, so I don't have any regrets there. Maybe if I had started having children younger and skipped that part I might feel differently. But, since I have had/have the best of both worlds I can say that having children with the man I cherish and who cherishes me is the most deeply fulfilling experience.
Jun '10
Re: What Women Want
katievs: But here's the thing: Prager seems to think it does. He seems to be insinuating something that he can't quite bring himself say out loud. Something like this: "In marriage, everyone is happier and better off when the woman is in a subordinate position--a position in which she looks up to her husband as her leader and is cherished and taken care of by him."
That would be a daring and controversial thing to say. (It would also be wrong, IMO.)
Reading this reminded me of the 2nd reading from the Feast of the Holy Family last Sunday: Wives, be subordinate to your husbands, as is proper in the Lord. Husbands, love your wives, and avoid any bitterness toward them. (Col 3:18-19) Perhaps you had this in mind as well? But then you go on to say this would be wrong. I'm curious to know if you think Paul got this one wrong as well?
Jun '10
Re: What Women Want
Andrea, please don't feel bad for me. As by my simple standards I have a good life. Granted, it's not a perfect life, but whose is? Basically, I'm a happy guy prone to dry humour, and a hellva guy to have a beer with, even though I prefer scotch. Oh, and I laugh a lot, most of the time too loudly. Odd thing is people tend to want to tell me their secrets. Maybe it's because I don't blab? Maybe its because I listen and prompt in a subtle fashion? I really don't know why, but they do.
May '10
Re: What Women Want
Joseph Stanko
Reading this reminded me of the 2nd reading from the Feast of the Holy Family last Sunday.... But then you go on to say this would be wrong. I'm curious to know if you think Paul got this one wrong as well? · Dec 29 at 11:00pm
That's no simple question to answer in a forum like this. But I'll make a start anyway.
I am a close student and great admirer of JP II, not least because of the light he has shed on the questions love, marriage and sexuality.
His interpretation of this passage seems to me profoundly true and completely satisfying, though I know many dismiss it as a sort of modernist evasion of the plain meaning of the text. No one familiar with his philosophical anthropology or his theological explorations of Genesis 1-3 could think so though.
In short, he shows convincingly that male and female are both fully persons, perfectly equal and complementary, made for their own sake, and made to give themselves in love.
The domination of men over women was among the tragic results of the fall. The mutual, self-giving love in marriage is the remedy.
May '10
Re: What Women Want
The interpretive key to the verse you quote lies in the preceding one: "Defer to one another out of love for Christ." There the mutuality is established. What follows should be read, then, not as an assignment of "proper roles", but as a revelation of the mystery of marriage as an image of the love in the Holy Trinity (a very radical idea at the time.)
Also:
As deeper and more devout minds than mine have pointed out before (I'm thinking of St. Edith Stein, e.g.), some of Paul's writings have to be understood as addressing a specific culture--one wherein, for instance, slavery was normal and women's subordinate position vis a vis men in society was unquestioned. "Slaves obey your masters", "Women should never speak in Church," etc.
Those passages have to be reinterpreted in light of developments since. (Catholics, of course, look to the teaching authority of the Church for that task.)
Notice Catholic wedding vows no longer include "obey"---not because we've caved under pressure from feminists, but because we see now that that's not quite right, not quite adequate to either the truth about marriage or the dignity of women.
Dec '10
Re: What Women Want
Wow. Great read. Thanks for posting. Highly recommended. Bookmarked for repeat reading and sharing.
Over the decades I have read bits and pieces of many of these facts, points, and analyses, have made some similar observations myself, and have done some of the same analysis. But I've never seen it all so coherently organized and comprehensively and thoroughly presented.
Edited on December 30, 2010 at 7:27pmMay '10
Re: What Women Want
Regarding the snarky comment about 6 day creation, believe what you will. But acknowledge that since at least Josephus there has been controversy over the various interpretations of the Hebrew word yom.
1) I tend not to take anything Dennis Prager says about marriage very seriously, given that he pontificates endlessly about the sanctity of the institution, and yet has been married three times.
2) It is obviously true that many people should not be married, period. Many people want to “get married”- that is not the same thing as to “be married”. I think that this quote from Cas tells me more than any other comments why he is not cut out to be a husband (and I assume that his ex was not cut out to be a wife): "During my marriage my wife never ironed for me, never! I did my own chores, because I can't stand people ‘doing for me’. No matter how you slice and dice "doing for someone" always comes with a price tag. It's pay me now or pay me later." I quote the wise philosopher Li’l Abner in response: “No man is a Ireland.” (con't)
Edited on December 30, 2010 at 8:02pmMay '10
Re: What Women Want
3) People often marry for exactly the wrong reasons- thinking it is about them, and personal self-actualization. That attitude dooms the relationship to failure.
Marriage is about "the other"- the degree to which you find your joy in serving the other brings you your happiness. If your Other has the same approach, you end up with a great marriage. If only one of you sees it that way, you may have a less-fulfilling, but still viable relationship, depending on the degree to which the unselfish party can overcome her or his nature. If both of you are seeking something from the other, you will be miserable.
Tuesday, I was off work on an unpaid holiday (university budget issues), and set my alarm for 5:30- just so I could waken my had-to-go-to-work bride by bringing her coffee. Why? Nothing particularly noble- she looks so cute when she is waking up (it does help that she’s plenny good-lookin’ after 37 years), I wanted to spare her the cold trek down to the kitchen. If pleasing your spouse without expecting some kind of payback doesn’t grab you, you probably shouldn’t be married.
May '10
Re: What Women Want
4) Finally, marriage is about sex (possibly Prager’s problem based on his other writings and certain comments, check put his radio shows about “obligatory sex”.
Maslow’s hierarchy applies here, and even the Bible is pretty unequivocal in its instructions to that effect. FJB quoted 1 Corinthians 13, which describes a combination of filios and agape love. But Paul got his order correct, moving from the base to the sublime; he starts his 1 Corinthians teaching about love with chapter 7, instructing married couples to burn up the sheets regularly just to remove any temptations to immorality- period. Nothing about “feelings” or “mood”.
Then never-married Paul gets to brotherly love in chapter 13, finishing off with the ultimate expression of agape love in the chapter 15 reiteration of fundamental Christian principles (which, by the way, is the earliest written record we have of Christian doctrine and the life of Christ, written only about 20 years after the Resurrection).
I suspect that a lot of marriages end up being a form of legalized prostitution, wherein certain services are exchanged for reciprocal compensation of value. That's not how it was designed originally.
Jun '10
Re: What Women Want
Duane, forget Paul and burning up the sheets, I've seen plenty of married couples burning up sheets with a variety of mates, as I'm sure you have also. But I'll grant these are not the poster couples for marriage. I've also seen and heard plenty of married couples harping on each other, and if that's love, well, they have a funny way of showing it. What are the odds that these demolition-derby couples are passing themselves off publicly as having great marriages? My guess, they all present to the public as loving, and when at home they're hacking on each other. Given 'em sticks and skates and you got a hockey game. But what passes for marriage in most people's minds is some symbiotic relationship between cripples and half-fits, who for their mutual convenience marry to compensate for their own lack. Is there anything about that complementariness that strikes you as co-dependence? Which term, as I'm sure you know, comes to us by way of drug and alcohol abuse. As for pleasing the other, I am happy I don't have to do it any more.
Edited on December 30, 2010 at 8:54pmMay '10
Re: What Women Want
Boy, Cas, you have a real issue here, even more than I thought when I wrote my post:
"My guess, they all present to the public as loving, and when at home they're hacking on each other. Given 'em sticks and skates and you got a hockey game. But what passes for marriage in most people's minds is some symbiotic relationship between cripples and half-fits, who for their mutual convenience marry to compensate for their own lack."
Your experience must have been about as dysfunctional as is possible.
I wish you well, my friend. I hope that the ladies with whom you keep company have the same expectations from male-female relationships that you have.
And, sorry, Paul's instructions were quite sound, regardless of what stupid, shallow, self-absorbed people do.
I don't buy all the fluffy, psychobabble, romance novel "you complete me!" drivel that you get on Oprah. But good marriages are ultimately fulfilling if you marry the right person and you both commit to doing it right. The latter is the killer, because so many are so self-absorbed.
Dec '10
Re: What Women Want
Cas is the perfect example of someone who is just too grumpy to get married. He is not alone.
I fear I may be of his kind as well.
I hope not, but the evidence is mounting, as is my age . . .
May '10
Re: What Women Want
Nickolas
Wow. Great read. Thanks for posting. Highly recommended. Bookmarked for repeat reading and sharing.
Edited on Dec 30 at 10:27 am
Sorry, I find it a repulsive article. Disturbed and demented. Wrong almost through and through. The thesis is false; the methodology is specious; the advice is base.
Look, no fault divorce has been a disaster. So has the sexual revolution that de-coupled sex and pro-creation. But for men and women both. (Who doesn't know stories of women whose husbands abandon them for a new honey after 30 years of marriage, ruining their lives?)
The whole article is an exercise in resentment-laden perversity. Take, for instance, this bit:
"A complex sexual past works against women even if the same works in favor of men, due to the natural sexual attraction triggers of each gender. A wise man once said, "A key that can open many locks is a valuable key, but a lock that can be opened by many keys is a useless lock."
May '10
Re: What Women Want
Or this:
Among the most valuable learnings from the body of knowledge is the contrarian revelation that what women say a man should do is often quite the antithesis of what would actually bring him success. For example, being a needy, supplicative, eager-to-please man is precisely the opposite behavior that a man should employ, where being dominant, teasing, amused, yet assertive is the optimal persona. An equally valuable lesson is to realize when not to take a woman's words at face value. Many statements from her are 'tests' to see if the man can remain congruent in his 'alpha' personality, where the woman is actually hoping the man does not eagerly comply to her wishes. Similarly, the 'feminist' Pavlovian reaction to call any non-compliant man a 'misogynist' should also not be taken as though a rational adult assigned the label after fair consideration. Such shaming language is only meant to deflect scrutiny and accountability from the woman uttering it, and should be given no more importance than a 10-year-old throwing a tantrum to avoid responsibility or accountability.
This is worrying stuff. I'm very sorry to learn that Rico men fall for it.
Jun '10
Re: What Women Want
By the way, Duane, doing my own chores included changing diapers for both my daughters when it had to be done. Now, we didn't count in a tit-for-tat fashion, but I can easily and safely say that I changes as many diapers as my ex-wife did. That meant, for your information, that when I got home from work I took over in the kid department. Oh, yeah! and I don't remember ever complaining about the chore. I also bathed and put my daughters to bed by reading bedtime stories to them every night. In fact, I worked my way through The Lord the Rings with both daughters before each turned nine. Now, imagine it I had been one of those husbands who thought diapers and bedtime and stories were all work for the "little woman." I repeat, most guys who marry are idiots about the house, and its their stupid wives and mothers that allow them to be. To me that is an embarrassment.
Jun '10
Re: What Women Want
One anecdote: I remember taking my youngest daughter to an afternoon kids party, as my ex had a prior commitment. It was some other kid's birthday. As it turned out I was the only father there. A couple of hours into the party, having acquired a sense of P-timing, I stuck a finger into my daughters diaper. She was ripe for a change, so I picked her up, pulled a Pampers out to my back pocket--which got a great laugh from the women present--and marched off to change the kid. I have never been able to figure out the laugh. Was is because of where I'd been keeping the diaper. Was it because as a man I was unqualified to do the work? Or was it because these women were amused that I didn't come equipped with a over-stuffed kiddie-care bag complete with arugula, just in case the kiddles needed a snack? You pick the answer. All I would add is that whatever answer you pick, make sure that it is not freighted with chauvinism.
Jun '10
Re: What Women Want
CoolHand: Cas is the perfect example of someone who is just too grumpy to get married. He is not alone.
I fear I may be of his kind as well.
I hope not, but the evidence is mounting, as is my age . . . · Dec 30 at 12:09pm
There you go, CoolHand, you know me all too well. Just this morning I tore in to a cute little barista with my most sarcastic "please" and most condescending "thank-you." That'll teach her not to address me before I've had a coffee. Anymore of this behaviour and you can bet she'll stop regaling me with horror stories of her worst customers from the day before. Oops! It just occurred to me that she's probably telling others about my savage demands, all of which are prefixed with please. What's a mean old ogre like me supposed to do? If you can't kill 'em with kindness, how can you kill 'em?