What We've All Been Waiting For: The Conservative Case for the Individual Mandate
I'm really not sure what to make of this, from the L.A. Times. Here is an interesting excerpt:
In fact, the only individuals who may actually be forced to do something they would not do voluntarily are those who can afford insurance but choose not to buy it. It is these individuals and families whose supposed rights to not have insurance are being defended by critics of the new law. Yet these are precisely the individuals with whom strong advocates of individual responsibility should be most displeased. These people are not just putting themselves and their families at risk by not buying insurance; they are running the risk that when they cannot pay their medical bills, someone else will have to pay those bills for them.
Is government enforced individual responsibility really individual responsibility, or is it something else?
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Dec '10
Re: What We've All Been Waiting For: The Conservative Case for the Individual Mandate
Following that logic you could mandate height to waist ratios, exercise, and "proper" eating regiments....much like the Japanese have already done. Heh, you could also use that logic to force people to be sterilized and whatever else you could dream up that people "aught" to do.
Oct '10
Re: What We've All Been Waiting For: The Conservative Case for the Individual Mandate
Bottom line... is the individual citizen in the United States a free person, whose freedom can only be deprived through the process of having him declared a violator of some other person's individual freedom, or is that no longer the case?
I think we all know the answer. Don't quibble about the draft and a few other obligations like jury duty. they have historical precedent and are the accepted dues for citizenship.
I guess we just need better managers to manage our freedom for us.
Aug '10
Re: What We've All Been Waiting For: The Conservative Case for the Individual Mandate
Mothership_Greg:
Is government enforced individual responsibility really individual responsibility, or is it something else? ·
Something else. It is a form of compliance that mimics individual responsibility.
Oct '10
Re: What We've All Been Waiting For: The Conservative Case for the Individual Mandate
Midget Faded Rattlesnake
Mothership_Greg:
Is government enforced individual responsibility really individual responsibility, or is it something else? ·
Something else. It is a form of compliance that mimics individual responsibility. · Nov 22 at 6:19am
To mimic implies that the form appears to be the original to the observer.
Just ignore the "individual mandate", and sometime in your future there will be an official with a gun to encourage your individual decision.
Put lipstick on coercion, and it still wallows in mud.
Nov '11
Re: What We've All Been Waiting For: The Conservative Case for the Individual Mandate
I think this gets at the heart of the matter, for me, anyway. Should the government prevent people with undesirable genetic traits from procreating, as they are behaving "irresponsibly" with respect to society? How does one begin to make a "conservative" case for the individual mandate while not discussing its Constitutionality? How can anyone pretend that "only individuals who may actually be forced to do something they would not do voluntarily are those who can afford insurance but choose not to buy it", when obviously people who already have insurance will be "forced" to pay higher taxes for the enforcement of the individual mandate? I thought everyone had moved past the "Obamacare is revenue neutral" fantasy, but perhaps not.
May '10
Re: What We've All Been Waiting For: The Conservative Case for the Individual Mandate
In typical fashion, this writer fails to understand what personal responsibility actually means. He obviously finds it impossible to grasp that another person might actually make bad choices and have to live with the consequences. In his view, 'personal responsibility' means always making the 'right choice'. Moreover, the 'right choice' is whatever he determines it to be; in this case owning health insurance.
That he accredits this as 'the conservative case' for health insurance shows that he has put little serious thought into the matter.
Oct '11
Re: What We've All Been Waiting For: The Conservative Case for the Individual Mandate
Individual responsibility means that they pay their legal obligations, whatever the personal cost may be. It doesn't mean expecting that care they cannot afford will suddenly come free-of-charge, and it doesn't mean that government can dictate the mechanism they use to pay for it.
Seems to me that we need a major paradigm shift before any progress gets made in this arena.
Apr '11
Re: What We've All Been Waiting For: The Conservative Case for the Individual Mandate
Dittoes to previous points, especially Kofola and Kelly B.
There is also the practical point that with Obamacare, one is not just required to get health insurance. Only plans and coverage mandated as acceptable to the government are available. These plans are designed not with your needs foremost, but with the needs of the plan to create a sufficient pool of healthy subscribers to support the overloaded coverages dictated for lower-middle-class beneficiaries of upper-middle-class sensibilities.
Nov '11
Re: What We've All Been Waiting For: The Conservative Case for the Individual Mandate
I actually don't believe the author was trying to make a sincere effort at a conservative justification for the individual mandate, but was writing an op-ed designed for leftists to hold up and say "See here, these dumb rightwingers aren't even really conservative!" My reason for this is the following paragraph:
So the author glosses over the Constitutional question at the beginning, then tells us how great the government giving subsidies to insurance companies is. Sound conservative? Not to me.
Jan '11
Re: What We've All Been Waiting For: The Conservative Case for the Individual Mandate
does not mean the same thing as
Nov '11
Re: What We've All Been Waiting For: The Conservative Case for the Individual Mandate
Mothership_Greg:
Is government enforced individual responsibility really individual responsibility, or is it something else? ·
It's something else, in the same way that government enforced charity isn't really charity.
Jul '11
Re: What We've All Been Waiting For: The Conservative Case for the Individual Mandate
I am no supporter of the individual mandate -- certainly not on a federal level -- but I have some sympathy for the mandate (on a state level) and for the argument the author is making IF we are not prepared to turn people away at the hospital when they show up seeking emergency care without insurance.
When people do this, and can't fully compensate the hospital for their care, other people eat the cost. That means the person (to the extent he could afford insurance but didn't buy it) is free-loading, which is hardly conservative, and preventing free-loading seems like a conservative thing to do.
Now, one might say that, if the government wasn't distorting health care so much, prices would decline and there would be adequate private resources to take care of these uninsured people. Interesting libertarian argument, but not one I know to be correct.
So, are the options (1) not turning people away at the hospital, and an individual mandate, or (2) turning people away and letting them absorb the cost of their irresponsibility? Or is there a better, third option?
We conservatives need a good answer to this question.
Edited on Nov 22, 2011 at 5:52pmMay '10
Re: What We've All Been Waiting For: The Conservative Case for the Individual Mandate
Does anyone have actual data on just how much of the health insurance inflation is caused by these supposed free riders who show up to the hospital and get treatment without insurance? Come to think of it, the only piece of data I've seen in the the entire healthcare debate is that 16% of GDP and growing is allocated to healthcare spending. Nobody has ever attempted to figure out what is actually contributing to this enormous cost, and persuade us quantitatively that an individual mandate would actually make a difference.
There are some people we are just going to have a philosophical disagreement with on the individual mandate, and we will never be able to convince them that the Constitution prohibits it. But if we could just demonstrate how ineffective it is, maybe we wouldn't have to worry about that.
Jul '10
Re: What We've All Been Waiting For: The Conservative Case for the Individual Mandate
The first question should be, why is this a responsibility of the federal government at all?
Aug '10
Re: What We've All Been Waiting For: The Conservative Case for the Individual Mandate
Mothership_Greg:
Well, how is this different from when they don't pay their credit card bill, or car note, or mortgage? Wait a minute - they really are paying some folks mortgage...
See, this is what I don't understand - in every other transaction you are required to pay for yourself and if you don't they notify a collection agency - why just this very morning, when I took my son to the Doc, I had to sign a stack of papers saying I was the responsible person. (In fact, the stack of paperwork to see a doc is getting close to the stack needed to buy a house - what is up with that?)
Since there is no individual mandate for credit card insurance, why is there for health insurance?
Oct '10
Re: What We've All Been Waiting For: The Conservative Case for the Individual Mandate
Look, the individual mandate is nothing more than a psychological trick. There is no difference between giving generous tax deductions to those with health insurance and penalizing those without, other than psychology. That's the real issue here.
One way or another, the taxpayer picks up the tab for people without health insurance. Levying additional taxes on such people is only fair; the only question is whether you reward those who are responsible, or fine those who are not. Either way, the money has to come from somewhere.
Oct '10
Re: What We've All Been Waiting For: The Conservative Case for the Individual Mandate
Instugator
Well, how is this different from when they don't pay their credit card bill, or car note, or mortgage? Wait a minute - they really are paying some folks mortgage...
See, this is what I don't understand - in every other transaction you are required to pay for yourself and if you don't they notify a collection agency - why just this very morning, when I took my son to the Doc, I had to sign a stack of papers saying I was the responsible person. (In fact, the stack of paperwork to see a doc is getting close to the stack needed to buy a house - what is up with that?)
Since there is no individual mandate for credit card insurance, why is there for health insurance? · Nov 22 at 6:46pm
There may not be a mandate for credit card insurance, but many (most?) banks do require mortgage insurance, and most states have home disaster insurance mandates. Credit cards have a built-in insurance mechanism; it's called high interest rates and fees.
Oct '10
Re: What We've All Been Waiting For: The Conservative Case for the Individual Mandate
Whiskey Sam
The first question should be, why is this a responsibility of the federal government at all? · Nov 22 at 6:20pm
It is, in the sense that federal money bails out hospitals (to a limited extent) for patients who can't pay, and sometimes people with large medical bills will deliberately work crappy jobs so they can qualify for Medicaid (which is a huge cost to the taxpayer as well).
Edited on Nov 22, 2011 at 6:58pmMay '10
Re: What We've All Been Waiting For: The Conservative Case for the Individual Mandate
Joseph Eagar
There may not be a mandate for credit card insurance, but many (most?) banks do require mortgage insurance, and most states have home disaster insurance mandates. Credit cards have a built-in insurance mechanism; it's called high interest rates and fees. · Nov 22 at 6:52pm
Mortgage insurance is required if you want to borrow money from that bank. States require homeowners insurance if you want to own property in that state. So far, insurance is not for required breathing American air.
Oct '10
Re: What We've All Been Waiting For: The Conservative Case for the Individual Mandate
Mark Wilson
Joseph Eagar
There may not be a mandate for credit card insurance, but many (most?) banks do require mortgage insurance, and most states have home disaster insurance mandates. Credit cards have a built-in insurance mechanism; it's called high interest rates and fees. · Nov 22 at 6:52pm
Mortgage insurance is required if you want to borrow money from that bank. States require homeowners insurance if you want to own property in that state. So far, insurance is not for required breathing American air. · Nov 22 at 6:58pm
Yet, if you choke on that air, someone has to pay the hospital bills. Now, we could cut out all federal involvement at all, which would result in a patchwork of individual mandates in some states, and higher taxes in others. That's definitely an option too.