What Is The Moral Case For Paying Social Security Benefits?
It being widely accepted that Social Security is a Ponzi scheme (or worse), and that payments to current beneficiaries are effectively being made out of current taxation or borrowing, what is the moral case for continuing to make payments?
Social Security is a sacred trust!
Nope. It's just a law.
I've been paying in for years - it's my right to collect!
Nope. You paid tax, and it was spent. There is no real in to pay in to. There is nothing to collect.
But the Government made promises!
Government promises. Worth the chads they are written on. See also, the Constitution.
The politicians made promises!
The lying politicians (yes, a tautology) you voted for.
I relied on Social Security being available! I didn't know it could disappear!
For well over a generation the nature of Social Security has been widely known. Choosing to believe convenient lies doesn't create an obligation on people who didn't lie to you.
I can't buy food or shelter without Social Security!
Well, if you've sold all your assets, you have no family and no-one else is willing to help you, perhaps something might be done. But that's something different from Social Security as it currently exists.
I have to sell my assets? But I want to leave something to my kids!
Why should my kids have to pay for yours?
And so on.
So, is there a moral case for taking money from some people and giving it to other people that happen to be past a certain age? (Moral as distinct from political or tactical.)
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Mar '11
Re: What Is The Moral Case For Paying Social Security Benefits?
To fulfill a promised to Ms. Berlinski some weeks ago that I would sympathetically adopt liberal positions in an argument before going on to demonstrate how they are wrong (my challenge to Joe Nocera at the NYT), I was constructing a post on this very subject. You've beaten me to it, Genferei.
Nevertheless: two points from my list. I leave it to fellow Ricoteers to demolish them.
A progressive would make part of the moral case for Social Security along the following lines:
1) In a society of material abundance, it is negligent and cruel to allow anyone to spend their retirement in poverty, even if they have not planned adequately for retirement themselves. Moreover, there are those who had depended on family, but who are now widowed or have lost children or through some tragedy are helpless if society, through the state, doesn't act.
2) A market economy that is prone to ups and downs can crash at very inopportune times in the lives of citizens. Think of those who had saved for retirement looking at their portfolio after the 2008 crash. Social Security insulates and protects the innocent from these potential abuses.
Dec '10
Re: What Is The Moral Case For Paying Social Security Benefits?
Short answer is no. As I've stated several times on this topic, creating dependence on the government is antithetical to the foundation principle of the nation: liberty. Doing it among a consistent voting block is politically disgusting. If the left looked into what this system actually does they would break out the pitch forks. The poorest of the working poor have 4.2% (6.2% normally) of their meager income transfered to seniors, often seniors in much better financial conditions than those who are paying. For all their whining about "fair" in the tax system, the left misses the most regressive and unfair practice of them all. If all social security amounts to is a redistributive welfare program, then it's time we stop redistributing from the bottom to the top. It's not just socialism, it's the worst kind of it.
Dec '10
Re: What Is The Moral Case For Paying Social Security Benefits?
Crowe's Nest,
Mar '11
Re: What Is The Moral Case For Paying Social Security Benefits?
genferei
So, is there a moral case for taking money from some people and giving it to other people that happen to be past a certain age? (Moral as distinct from political or tactical.) ·
The only moral case for taking one person's money for the benefit of another is when that money is taken by voluntary consent. Thus, the only moral case is private charity.
Even worse are those who voluntarily rid themselves of assets so they can qualify for public aid. Over the years I've had several people come to me to ask if I'd assist them in doing this, and I've had to suppress the urge to throw them out of the office. Any attorney who helps anyone do this type of thing belongs in jail.
Jun '11
Re: What Is The Moral Case For Paying Social Security Benefits?
Since the inception of the program, it is safe to say that our culture - with ups and downs - experienced the most massive and widespread economic surge in the history of the world.
No culture has ever generated more prosperity than ours did during the given time frame.
Forget that the Rational Administrators did not generate stellar returns with our money. During this period, all they had to do was earn 5%, year after year. To attain that during the wave of growth would have been simple.
The moral dilemma has nothing to do with caring for the poor or the indigent. Only barbarians would not help those who truly need help.
It has to do with the outright fiends who stole the money.
Jun '11
Re: What Is The Moral Case For Paying Social Security Benefits?
Crow's Nest: To fulfill a promised to Ms. Berlinski some weeks ago that I would sympathetically adopt liberal positions in an argument before going on to demonstrate how they are wrong (my challenge to Joe Nocera at the NYT), I was constructing a post on this very subject. You've beaten me to it, Genferei.
1) In a society of material abundance, it is negligent and cruel to allow anyone to spend their retirement in poverty, even if they have not planned adequately for retirement themselves. Moreover, there are those who had depended on family, but who are now widowed or have lost children or through some tragedy are helpless if society, through the state, doesn't act.
2) A market economy that is prone to ups and downs can crash at very inopportune times in the lives of citizens. Think of those who had saved for retirement looking at their portfolio after the 2008 crash. Social Security insulates and protects the innocent from these potential abuses. · Sep 13 at 10:20am
Kind of creeps me out, Crow's Nest acting like a Progressive and all.
Nov '10
Re: What Is The Moral Case For Paying Social Security Benefits?
Short answer: No.
Addendum: For all his crazy talk, I give kudos to Ron Paul for standing on principle on this one and for saying publicly that anytime conservatives suggest that the government ought not to pay for something, we're said to be short on compassion. It gets old.
Jun '10
Re: What Is The Moral Case For Paying Social Security Benefits?
You have convinced me, genferei. The federal government has no moral obligation to make good on SS. "worthless promises" of "lying politicians"
Now, explain the basis of my moral obligation to pay income, payroll or any other taxes that I am clever enough to evade (not "avoid") with minimal risk of consequences.
Edited on September 13, 2011 at 10:32pmDec '10
Re: What Is The Moral Case For Paying Social Security Benefits?
Pilgrim: You have convinced me, genferei. The federal government has no moral obligation to make good on SS. "worthless promises" of "lying politicians"
Now, explain the basis of my moral obligation to pay income, payroll or any other taxes that I am clever enough to evade (not "avoid") with minimal risk of consequences. · Sep 13 at 1:30pm
Edited on Sep 13 at 01:32 pm
If you're a Christian, "Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God." (Rom 13:1). If you're not a Christian, social contract theory of Locke. Otherwise, you're pretty much on your own.
May '10
Re: What Is The Moral Case For Paying Social Security Benefits?
This stuff is fine for college bull sessions or Free Republic Ron Paul threads, but doesn't have a lot of value in the real world.
End game things and reform them from here on out, but there is a contract law principle of reliance here that no court would set aside. Period.
Mar '11
Re: What Is The Moral Case For Paying Social Security Benefits?
Just because they are past a certain age? no. there is no moral case for it. there is a moral case for helping old folks lacking other sources of income and who are physically incapable of working. recall that this was one of the main reasons for the program in the first place. but since there wasn't enough support for what would have amounted to a welfare program for the elderly, FDR had to turn it into an "insurance" program that would benefit everyone.
but that model -- for demographic and other reasons -- is now obviously unsustainable, and with calls for means-testing, social security will return to what it really should have been called all along: a welfare program. the sooner everyone grasps that, and understands that no one has an ownership claim on an income stream, the sooner congress will be able to make the changes needed to stabilize the program.
as an insurance program, social security really is a Ponzi scheme. but if it's not that, then it's just welfare.
Sep '10
Re: What Is The Moral Case For Paying Social Security Benefits?
I thought the Supreme Court already ruled that there were no property rights to SS benefits? What am I missing?
Oct '10
Re: What Is The Moral Case For Paying Social Security Benefits?
No moral case. The political case is "we're old, we vote, and we'll vote you out if you won't steal for us".
Oct '10
Re: What Is The Moral Case For Paying Social Security Benefits?
Mark Belling Fan
I thought the Supreme Court already ruled that there were no property rights to SS benefits? What am I missing? · Sep 13 at 2:18pm
You're not missing a thing, Mark, because you're quite right on the Supreme Court ruling.
Jun '10
Re: What Is The Moral Case For Paying Social Security Benefits?
The King Prawn
Pilgrim: You have convinced me, genferei. The federal government has no moral obligation to make good on SS. "worthless promises" of "lying politicians"
Now, explain the basis of my moral obligation to pay income, payroll or any other taxes that I am clever enough to evade (not "avoid") with minimal risk of consequences.
If you're a Christian, "Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God." (Rom 13:1). If you're not a Christian, social contract theory of Locke. Otherwise, you're pretty much on your own.
KP: I am at least enough of a Christian that I won't impute divine inspiration for the IRS and federal tax code. Dred Scott might have had a problem with the governing authorities as well.
So religious arguments aside, I could see the social contract theory except that genferei has set the problem: the government has confiscated wealth under false pretenses and may make fools of those who thought they had a "social contract" with their government, and who played by the rules and all that.
Dec '10
Re: What Is The Moral Case For Paying Social Security Benefits?
Pilgrim KP: I am at least enough of a Christian that I won't impute divine inspiration for the IRS and federal tax code. Dred Scott might have had a problem with the governing authorities as well.
So religious arguments aside, I could see the social contract theory except that genferei has set the problem: the government has confiscated wealth under false pretenses and may make fools of those who thought they had a "social contract" with their government, and who played by the rules and all that. · Sep 13 at 3:32pm
Indeed. The Supreme Court already said there is no contract when it opined that "The proceeds of both taxes [employer and employee] are to be paid into the Treasury like internal revenue taxes generally, and are not earmarked in any way" in Helvering v Davis.
Do you believe the confiscatory and dishonest practices of the government erode its moral authority to lay and collect taxes?
Oct '10
Re: What Is The Moral Case For Paying Social Security Benefits?
It took 75 years to dance the ballet of dependency to this point. We have been lied to, taxed, romanced by politicians, and in every way, even though many of us have always known the smell of bull shit throughout the entire charade.
Now, you might ask, is it moral to continue the fraud we have always opposed until we reach a point where we can eliminate the entire edifice. None of us live that long. For me, I am now at the receiving end of the process. Is it moral for me, at age 68, having been a moral and law abiding citizen, to now allow the promise making system to keep it's promises, even though I still oppose the entire PONZI scheme?
Your call!
Jul '10
Re: What Is The Moral Case For Paying Social Security Benefits?
These quibbles are about forty years too late. The smart thing is what Perry and Romney among others are saying. Old folks will continue collecting their SS but the program must be restructured to conform with reality for those in their 20s to late 40s. Senior citizens are a powerful voting bloc and only a political fool would provoke them with high-sounding libertarian theory no matter how smug and morally superior it made him feel.
Jun '10
Re: What Is The Moral Case For Paying Social Security Benefits?
genferei
So, is there a moral case for taking money from some people and giving it to other people that happen to be past a certain age? (Moral as distinct from political or tactical.) ·
I think it would be better characterized as a mandatory insurance program. With health insurance, the dues you pay are not invested somewhere to pay for your future health care expenses; rather, they are paid out to cover the expenses of other sick members. As long as the plan remains sound there should be enough other healthy members paying it to cover your future expenses. If you stay healthy you'll pay in more than you collect, but if you get seriously ill you'll collect more than you ever paid in.
Same principle applies here: if you die before retirement age you'll never collect. If you live to a ripe old age you'll collect more than you paid in.
If someone voluntarily bought private insurance, and the insurer refuses to pay a valid claim, that would be unfair. If the government forces you to buy insurance whether you want it or not, and then refuses to honor your claim, that seems doubly unfair.
Mar '11
Re: What Is The Moral Case For Paying Social Security Benefits?
I was reading "think pieces" in the paper when I entered the workforce 35 years ago. People were commenting on the unsustainability in those years, too. My friends and I laughed at our FICA deductions, declaring with authority as youngsters do, "we'll never see those dollars again!" I'm happy for my alternate retirement streams, I never counted on SS as a sole source.