What If There Is a Hell and No One Believed It?
Dear God, I am one of your season tickets holders, about 44 years now. I've got some cheap seats, far from the real action, but from where I am it does indeed look like you aren't around. Take this "Why does God allow so much suffering" question. Tornadoes, earthquakes, tsunamis, cancer...
And on a human level, it is said you've given us the free will to do lovely things, but also horrible things, which makes me want to ask: can't we do that without you? I mean, this world seems to resemble one where you simply don't exist. You used to come right out and proclaim your existence, you used to show your hand. Sure there's the occasional "miracle" where we dig a baby out of some rubble a week after some disaster, but it seems like more babies don't get that treatment.
Whether you are there or not, it seems like we'd simply be better off if people at least believed you were there, keeping score, ready to dole out punishment when the game is over. I'd go so far as to say, I'd RATHER have that. A place where EVERYONE believes the celestial camcorder is running, storing all of our actions on some cloud-based server, ready for playback, and payback -- even if it wasn't true.
At least this world might suffer less from that type of free ILL will that we are allowed under the current explanation of the rules, than we will from the "hope" that that monster with the little girl tied up in his basement gets his in the afterlife. Right?
- Comment (40)
- · Quote
- · UnfollowFollow (3)
- Pages:
- 1
- 2
- Pages:
- 1
- 2
Comments :
Jun '10
Re: What If There Is a Hell and No One Believed It?
HANK DAGNY: ...
I mean, this world seems to resemble one where you simply don't exist. ...
This is the great mystery, isnt' it? This must be deliberate. It must be a goad.
HANK DAGNY: ...
You used to come right out and proclaim your existence, you used to show your hand. ...
Did God show His hand? Only through others -- not directly to each and every one of us. We live in a unique time where we are taught to think for ourselves. When God "showed His hand" -- that was a time when most people learned to know their place and not to question the big ideas of the time. They gained considerable comfort from the elites of their time who in exchange for being served by lower classes shouldered the big problems of life.
Now we are left to our own home-grown concoctions of philosophy and theology as to these great mysteries. Now, most of us are truly destitute and left with few resources.
We must go back to basics and ask God about Himself and His world. Prayer is the means of getting closer to God. Prayer is the only means. But, it is sufficient. Prayer, meditation, absorption, salvation.
Jul '10
Re: What If There Is a Hell and No One Believed It?
If there is a hell, I advise you to do all your naughty stuff here and now, 'cause you're going to be a little busy in the hereafter.
Dec '10
Re: What If There Is a Hell and No One Believed It?
The question isnt "why does God allow bad things to happen?". The question is "why does God do any good things for a race of degenrent retrobates like humans?". You talk about the monster with a girl in his basement, but when dealing with a Being who is so holy and just that feeling hate is as bad as murder and lust is on the same par as adultery(Jesus's sermon on the Mt). Its an unbelievable mystery that He hasn't killed us all yet.
Feb '11
Re: What If There Is a Hell and No One Believed It?
If He were obvious, there wouldn't be much point, would there?
Mar '11
Re: What If There Is a Hell and No One Believed It?
In Luke 13:1-5 Jesus is answering a rhetorical question about suffering and repentance:
1There were some present at that very time who told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2And he answered them, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered in this way? 3No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. 4Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? 5No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."
One instance of suffering was caused by man and the other by "an act of God". I don't know why some people suffer and others don't but I do know that it is appointed man once to die and then judgment (Hebrews 9:27).
Jun '10
Re: What If There Is a Hell and No One Believed It?
I don't believe in Hell. The notion is inconsistent with an all-merciful and all-loving God the Father. My knowledge of Scripture isn't what it should be, but I don't recall anywhere in the text where the Son of God damns anyone to an eternity of fire and brimstone.
As for the state of the world, God gave us free will for right or wrong. He might have created us as automatons incapable of disobedience, but He didn't. I can only speculate that free will is an essential characteristic of our existence with cosmic significance beyond our ken.
And then there is the mystery of faith. It's hard to explain to those who lack it, but the transformative effects of faith are profound and very real. How does one achieve faith? You pray for it with an open and sincere heart.
Mar '11
Re: What If There Is a Hell and No One Believed It?
Paules-
If you don't believe in hell, what is the point of the cross?
~Paules: I don't believe in Hell. The notion is inconsistent with an all-merciful and all-loving God the Father. My knowledge of Scripture isn't what it should be, but I don't recall anywhere in the text where the Son of God damns anyone to an eternity of fire and brimstone.
As for the state of the world, God gave us free will for right or wrong. He might have created us as automatons incapable of disobedience, but He didn't. I can only speculate that free will is an essential characteristic of our existence with cosmic significance beyond our ken.
And then there is the mystery of faith. It's hard to explain to those who lack it, but the transformative effects of faith are profound and very real. How does one achieve faith? You pray for it with an open and sincere heart. · May 1 at 5:24am
Mar '11
Re: What If There Is a Hell and No One Believed It?
Matthew 25:41-46
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?' 45Then he will answer them, saying, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' 46And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Mar '11
Re: What If There Is a Hell and No One Believed It?
It is essential that we ust have a choice. If G-d could be logically proven (or disproven) then it would be impossible for us to truly have a choice about whether or not to be religious in the first place.
May '10
Re: What If There Is a Hell and No One Believed It?
HANK DAGNY A curious name for someone who asks the question as to the nature of Hell, given Rand's anti-Christian bent. "When I die, I hope to go to Heaven, whatever the Hell that is". Ayn Rand
The nature of Hell, and for that matter Satan, and death have undertaken many changes throughout human history, not to mention as concepts in the Old and New Testaments. I believe Hell refers to being separated from G-d by choice; and not a place where according to Blackadders' Bishop Godfrey
...Where Satan belches fire, and enormous devils break wind
both night and day! Hell: where the mind is never free from the
torments of remorse, and your bottom never free from the pricking
of little forks!
The monster with the little girl tied up in his basement is unlikely to be stopped by thoughts of Hell, and then suddenly do good. Alas about this we can do little.
Instead the more positive and persuasive arguments for the good of the majority, are Christ's words of "And thou shalt love the Lord thy God ... and thy neighbour as thyself"
Edited on May 1, 2011 at 6:04amJun '10
Re: What If There Is a Hell and No One Believed It?
karamazov59: Paules-
If you don't believe in hell, what is the point of the cross?
May 1 at 5:28am
Well, I don't believe Christ had to die for our sins. Absolution is granted automatically when a sincere heart repents. No one, not even a Son of God, can repent for you. The significance of the cross is beyond my understanding. The more important event in the career of Christ is the Resurrection. If you're a believer, then the Resurrection provides the proof that the man, Jesus of Nazareth, was indeed the Son of God.
I sometimes entertain the thought that there might be more than one divine son. It's a big universe. God's family might be much larger than we suppose. Who's to say that Jesus Christ doesn't enjoy the company of a celestial family? I'm a heretic, but I'm quite sure that such speculation won't get me damned. In addition to being free-will creatures, God has made us curious.
May '10
Re: What If There Is a Hell and No One Believed It?
If there were no God, it wouldn't be better for people to believe in Him. How could it be good to live in illusion? It's always better to be rooted in Reality. (Of course, the point is something of an unreal hypothetical, since if there were no God, there would be no people to disbelieve in Him.)
Same with hell. The question shouldn't be whether or not the concept is a useful moral tool, but whether there really is such a thing. And if there is, whether we're headed there. And if we are, how we turn around.
May '10
Re: What If There Is a Hell and No One Believed It?
T. Dalrymple points out that until recently the word evil included such things as floods, earthquakes, and tornadoes. Why doesn't it now?
May '10
Re: What If There Is a Hell and No One Believed It?
The author’s question is timeless to anyone who attempts to reconcile their understanding of faith with what they see around them. It’s the quintessential mystery. The author’s wish that everyone would believe is also natural and I’d agree. It can never be. But that’s the gift of faith.
These questions and debates are nothing new. Our modern gadgets and post-modern thoughts pose just the latest backdrop to theological issues. If humans weren’t so fickle and didn’t suffer from civilizational ADD, the apostle Paul would’ve had little need to write his corrective and advice-laden letters to established churches.
Some will receive faith right away, some will seek—perhaps with frustration—and eventually understand. Others will never see it and perhaps more won’t want to see it. If it were quantifiable, Nick Gillespie and the good folks at Reason.tv would have a nimble little video making it crystal clear. Take heart though in your questioning status. This bothers you and that’s good. Read Scripture and seek out those near you who do believe and want to talk about these matters.
Jun '10
Re: What If There Is a Hell and No One Believed It?
The Gospels were written a generation, perhaps two generations, after the Crucifixtion. By this time the story had begun to mutate. Pauline Christianity became an adaptive religion, taking in and amalgamating with the competing cults of the time. The dualism seen in contemporary Christianity was likely grafted onto the religion of Jesus from Zoroastrianism. That's my take, anyway.
Mar '11
Re: What If There Is a Hell and No One Believed It?
Paules-
Since I am limited to 200 words I will refer you to Hebrews 9:11-28. Verse 22 says without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. This is why Christ suffered as He did on the cross. Our sins against a Holy God are worse than we can imagine. That is why Christ had to stand in our place. To those who believe (repent and trust) in Christ we are offered eternity in heaven. Jesus is the atonement for our sins. If anyone does not accept the atonement and forgiveness of sins that Christ's death and resurrection offers, then that person will spend an eternity in hell. Our problem as people is we don't think sin is as bad as it is, which is why people dismiss hell. In the Sermon of the Mount, Jesus compared anger to murder and lust to adultery to show the sinfulness of sin. Our other problem is we don't understand the Holiness of God. to see an illustration of His Holiness I refer to Isaiah 6:1-6. Notice Isaiah's reaction to encountering a Holy God.
Jun '10
Re: What If There Is a Hell and No One Believed It?
In a perfect world, every family would have the warning, the understanding, and the shelters (for dangerous weather events) that the families of meteorologists have. God protects people by creating that level of love and cooperation, privately. But, not everyone cares, not everyone is listening, so precautions are always imperfect in the real world.
Jun '10
Re: What If There Is a Hell and No One Believed It?
karamazov59: Paules-
Since I am limited to 200 words I will refer you to Hebrews 9:11-28. Verse 22 says without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
Karamazov, let me first say that I respect all believers and do not wish to undermine anyone's faith. The ideas I express are mine. I don't expect anyone to accept them, nor will I be insulted by those who disagree.
Nevertheless, I find the Hebrew Torah and the New Testament to be contradictory. I can't entertain the idea that a superior being would require blood sacrifice from his children. The God of the Hebrews is a jealous, wrathful, and vengeful diety. These concepts probably say more about the Jews of the time than they do about the true nature of God. Such characteristics hardly describe a truly supreme being.
Contrast the religion of the Jews with the message of Jesus. In the New Testament we are introduced to an all-powerful, all-merciful, and all-loving Father. Does this not better express the nature of a truly perfect diety? I reject the angry God of the Old Testament in favor of a loving Father.
Mar '11
Re: What If There Is a Hell and No One Believed It?
Paules-
I have enjoyed the give and take. I used to have many of the same thoughts you did. A book that was helpful to me is "I don't have enough faith to be an Atheist" by Norman Geisler (forward by David Limbaugh). I am not saying you are an atheist - I wasn't when I read the book, but I did find it helpful in sorting out my theology.
Finally, when I look at the OT and NT I see a God of love and long-suffering and wrath - but it is a Holy wrath. God was very patient with the Jews, but they were rebellious. Jesus spoke of love and in His love he warned of the wrath to come and spoke more of hell than any other person in scriptures.
As a metaphor for God's Holy wrath. look at what Jesus did in the temple at the beginning and end of His ministry. He cleansed it and accused the Jewish leaders of turning the house of prayer into a den of thieves. At the end of His ministry look at Matthew 23 and Jesus words for the Pharisees. This is Holy wrath.
Mar '11
Re: What If There Is a Hell and No One Believed It?
Paules-
An addendum. Read Deuteronomy 28 (the whole chapter) where God tells the Jews the blessings they receive if they obey and the curses they receive for disobedience. The wrath the jews received was because they disobeyed. They put God to the test. Read Hosea and how God restores adulterous Israel. As evidence of this final point consider that in spite of being around since the time of Abraham and frequent persecutions and not having a country from 70-1948 AD, the Jews are still around. What other people group can say that? It is precisely because God loves the Jews that they are still around.