What If Muslims Just Don't Like Democracy?
I’ve lived in the Islamic world twice, once in Palestine and once in Uzbekistan. In total I’ve only lived among Muslims for about 2 and a half years, but I was in my twenties, and in both cases I was spending most of my time interacting with ordinary people in ordinary neighborhoods. I wasn’t locked away in offices filled with expats, and indeed I would often go for days or weeks without seeing a fellow Westerner. So, I think I was in a position to develop some moderately useful anecdotal impressions about the attitudes of ordinary Muslims towards democracy and the West.*
In my opinion, most ordinary Muslims don’t hate Westerners per se. In my months of living and working in Gaza City, I walked the streets freely and never felt that my nationality put me at particular risk. I was occasionally accosted by someone who wanted to give me an earful concerning American policies towards Israel, but that’s about as serious as it got. Uzbeks, in general, have very favorable feelings towards the United States. If someone accosted me on the street in Uzbekistan, it was generally to ask whether I could help them get a visa.
Despite this, my experiences in the Islamic world eventually led me to believe that, on the whole, Muslims do not want democracy. When asked, they normally say that they do. Further discussion reveals, however, that what they really want is peace and prosperity. If you talk to them about civil liberties, you’ll find that most of them are pretty adamantly opposed to free speech and religion. They don’t think proselytizing should be legal, and most are suspicious of legal protections for Muslims who want to convert to another faith. They are scandalized by the suggestion that blasphemy, for example, would qualify as protected speech.
It would probably be possible to have a democracy with less civil liberties than we have here in the United States. Free and fair elections, however, are surely a necessary and defining feature of a democratic state. Do Muslims want them? Again, if asked directly, most would tell me that they did. At the end of the day, though, I found that they were fairly indifferent. The Uzbeks had great admiration for Vladimir Putin, and often expressed the wish that they could have such a strong and capable leader. Their impressions of Russian politics were strongly influenced by their own MSM, which was dominated by Vremia, a (very yellow) Russian television station that invariably portrayed Putin in a positive light. But here was the fascinating part: when I filled them in on some of the discrepancies in the Russian electoral system, they didn’t disbelieve me. They just didn’t particularly care. A few even observed that if Putin could successfully rig elections, that proved him to be clever, capable, and the perfect man for the job.
Is it just an incontrovertible truth of the modern world that justice, peace, and prosperity can only be achieved in a democratic state? Are elections the only effective safeguard against tyranny? That certainly hasn’t been the case historically and it’s hard to see why it should be so now. Why couldn’t the Islamic world hammer out a system of government that was more hierarchical and authoritarian than ours (perhaps a monarchy of some sort), and that restricted civil liberties more than we would allow, but that still ensured the rule of law and consistently protected an Islamified understanding of citizens’ rights?
Undoubtedly, such a society would have many features that we Westerners would lament. Homosexuality would probably be illegal, and women and religious minorities would be treated as inferior citizens. Makers of anti-Islamic videos would be prosecuted. At least, though, such a society might direct its ire against the actual creators of controversial literature, instead of massacring innocents who were utterly unassociated with the offensive media. More generally, I think radical Islam would mostly simmer down if Muslims had functional governments of their own to attend to. Like people everywhere, most ordinary Muslims want peace and stability, and care little about the lives and customs of foreigners who live far away.
Is there any chance of this happening? I don’t know, and obviously the initiative would mainly have to come from within the Islamic world itself. But on our end, I think it’s worth considering whether there are more achievable possibilities for the Islamic world -- possibilities that we could live with, even if they aren’t especially delightful to us.
*I should admit that my anecdotal data is a bit old. I was in Palestine in 2000, and in Uzbekistan from 2002 through 2004.
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Comments:
Mar '11
Re: What If Muslims Just Don't Like Democracy?
With regard to Aaron's point about the size of the state, this too is a fascinating question in the history of political philosophy--perhaps better to address on another thread.
The smaller republic or democracy was certainly something that the ancient view endorsed--almost exactly in the words Aaron uses with regard to knowing someone face to face, or knowing someone who knows someone running face to face. Plato and Cicero both priase this as characteristic of a virtuous republican city--and it was precisely on the basis of virtue and character in the citiznery that they defended this practice. A man would be known directly by his fellows, and this limited the size of a republic or a city to a certain number.
Montesquieu early in his treatise defends this idea in his description of the traditional republic and its 'spring' of virtue. But he challenges it later on in his description of a commercial republic. One might say, like other moderns, that enlightened self-interest quietly replaces citizen virtue in this account.
Mar '11
Re: What If Muslims Just Don't Like Democracy?
I'm not sure that Christian societies all do fantastically at this. Look at Christian sub-Saharan Africa and you'll find nothing better than Islamic South Asia....Christian Latin America has mostly democratized. With luck, the Middle East will do just as well.
James: This too, is largely my view, although I attribute it less to luck, perhaps, and more to reform and statesmanship.
Part of Europe's experience, following the 30 Years War, was to adjust the role that religion played within public life. In contemporary Israel, the state manages to be modern and democratic, and has transformed the role that Mosaic law plays in Jewish public life such that it is compatable with a parliamentary, liberal democracy. I suspect that this is possible within Islam as well--but it will require politico-theological reform (the seeds of which can be found within that tradition itself, and which can be encouraged more or less ably from the outside, but can never be assured--history is not a straight line progress, and certainly not where faith is involved.)
Sep '12
Re: What If Muslims Just Don't Like Democracy?
My Experience is that many - if not most of the people of the Islamic faith I have had extended conversations with; are indifferent to full representative democracy. Even the most moderate Muslim has at leaset some basis of their worldview shaped by the mosque (read: Shariah law), in my opinion.
Nov '10
Re: What If Muslims Just Don't Like Democracy?
The problem with the export of democracy is that both sides have the same unrealistic standards; they both want the Arab world to join a community of nations in which the United States of 2012 is considered ludicrously right wing. That these goals are impossible means that the pro side is continuously frustrated and the anti side is quick to declare the whole thing hopeless. Aaron is absolutely right that democratization is a slow, gradual process; we're not going to get Arabs to accept apostasy or homosexuality, but maybe we can start with eliminating the death penalty for them. Christians, Jews and women might not be full citizens, but if we can keep them safe from violence, it's a step in the right direction.
That's why I consider Iraq a success. To (ab)use Aaron's metaphor, they may not have embraced the sun, but at least a candle has been lit.
Apr '11
Re: What If Muslims Just Don't Like Democracy?
With luck, we'll get the reform and statesmen that we need. I'm not sure we're far from the same page.
The thing that disappoints me most about the Iraqi endeavors is that we gave the constitutional convention to academics who liked the Belgian model. Iraq would have fared if she had been granted a US Constitution knock off, like the Japanese got.
Apr '12
Re: What If Muslims Just Don't Like Democracy?
I'm not an expert on Islamic theology, so I won't declare that Islam and democracy are intrinsically incompatible, but I find James' optimistic assessment extremely hard to buy. Are there or have there been Christian societies that also struggled with corruption and violent insurgents? Sure, but it was much more circumstantial. In the Islamic world, even the "success stories" have to be heavily qualified. Turkey, Indonesia etc. still harbor significant groups of people who seriously agitate for the institution of Islamic law. Many are willing to resort to violence to make their point. There is still considerable enthusiasm all across the Islamic world for a global war, with the ultimate goal of forcible imposing Islamic customs on everyone. There just isn't anything really equivalent to this in Christian history.
Some of these countries have had democracy imposed upon them, but outside of a few in the Western-educated upper classes, I don't believe that the inhabitants of these countries think about government in a way that will facilitate, or even be particularly compatible with, a robust and fully-functioning liberal democracy. That great classic, "Democracy In Turkey"... will never be written.
Apr '11
Re: What If Muslims Just Don't Like Democracy?
Several years ago I heard a talk by a law professor stating that Sharia law was developed as response to the totalitarian governments of the time. And while we might not think of Sharia as a good system, from the eyes of those living in an arbitrary state, it at least imposes some controls on the powerful vs the weak and is a framework of law. Like the biblical "eye for an eye" and the Hawaiian "Broken Paddle" law, Sharia demands that the powerful and weak all fall under the same rules. So to an Uzbek living in a very corrupt, dysfunctional society, Sharia looks like an improvement.
2) Historically societies have looked for political and personal freedom when per capita GDP reached about $4,000 to 5,000 (see Korea and Taiwan, does not apply to extraction economies like Saudi Arabia). Until then, citizens are attempting to survive. A middle class seems to be a prerequisite for a western style democracy and freedom.
So, the Islamic push for Sharia could be their attempt at a more just society and a push for more western style freedom might have to wait until they have more wealth and a modern economy.
Apr '12
Re: What If Muslims Just Don't Like Democracy?
I find it hard to dodge the obvious conclusion that this has something to do with Islam. Again, it's not for me to say whether this is "the real Islam" or some misinterpretation, but the correlation seems pretty evident.
I think, as I've said, that one problem relates to the role of law within Islamic thought, and Judaism does face similar issues. Israel may seem to stand as proof that a Jewish democracy is possible (so perhaps a full-fledged Islamic democracy is possible as well), but I think we have to take that with a grain of salt. When I was in Israel (also in 2000) I did a research project on the subject of religious tolerance in Israel. I was shocked at just how intolerant Israelis were, particularly of other groups of Jews. I'm inclined to think this would (and maybe will) create severe internal unrest in Israel, but for the overwhelming distraction of protecting themselves from massive external threats. The Israeli upper classes (which is to say, most politicians) have a wildly distorted picture of the religious and political landscape of their own country. There is definite potential for instability in Israel.
Mar '11
Re: What If Muslims Just Don't Like Democracy?
Aloha Johnny: Several years ago I heard a talk by a law professor stating that Sharia law was developed as response to the totalitarian governments of the time.
So, the Islamic push for Sharia could be their attempt at a more just society and a push for more western style freedom might have to wait until they have more wealth and a modern economy.
I doubt it. Sharia is supposed to be the revealed word of Allah. If Muslims believe that deviation from the revealed word is blasphemous, then I think you're going to wait a long time for a push for more western style freedom in the Arab world. Here's a sample from Reliance of the Traveller:
It's going to be hard to compromise with this kind of belief system.
Edited on September 18, 2012 at 5:51pmMar '12
Re: What If Muslims Just Don't Like Democracy?
There are certainly hierarchies in both Sunni and Shia Islam.
There is a hierarchy in Islam, husband over wife, man over woman, Muslim over non-Muslim. So long as the hierarchies are preserved, Islam will allow democratic function within that set of boundaries. If the boundaries are crossed, it is not Islam (or sharia) that loses, it is democracy.
Aug '12
Re: What If Muslims Just Don't Like Democracy?
Rachel
I think it's true that most people in Uzbekistan (where I am right now, by strange coincidence) would be more interested in a system that gave them a chance at prosperity than one which focused on political freedoms. (I think that's true of most of the developing world, Muslim and other.)
But people are corruptible by nature. Without an incorruptible Philosopher King, democracy is the only system which notionally keeps a check on corruption by holding rulers periodically accountable to the people.
Aug '12
Re: What If Muslims Just Don't Like Democracy?
Also - Bangladesh and Indonesia probably account for more than half the world's Muslims. There are another two hundred million Muslims living more or less successfully in democratic India. It seems wrong to dismiss these as complete outliers.
Apr '12
Re: What If Muslims Just Don't Like Democracy?
Yes, but religious minorities (even sizable ones) are playing a whole different ball game. You're forced to compromise more when working from a minority position.
Apr '11
Re: What If Muslims Just Don't Like Democracy?
Illiniguy
I doubt it. Sharia is supposed to be the revealed word of Allah. If Muslims believe that deviation from the revealed word is blasphemous, then I think you're going to wait a long time for a push for more western style freedom in the Arab world.
I think you are correct. I was just saying that the impulse for wanting Sharia law might be a response to the arbitrary and totalitarian states they live in. The only response they know is Sharia law.
Convincing an Islamist that a Western Style Democracy is the way to go would be a hard sell to most. Partly because they associate western democracy with our decadent lifestyle and partly I believe because it is not their system. Kinda like discussing health care with a Brit. Even if their Grandma had to wait 2 years for a new hip, they will never admit that another system might be better.
And without freedom, few countries will develop a prosperous middle class that will pushes for reform.
Mar '12
Re: What If Muslims Just Don't Like Democracy?
". Are there or have there been Christian societies that also struggled with corruption and violent insurgents? Sure, but it was much more circumstantial..."
Huh? I'm must admit I'm puzzled by your post. Do we live in a Christian society? I had assumed ours was a democratic Republic. Looking back, I cannot think of any Christian society from Constantine to the Boston Colony that has not struggled with violence, corruption, internal unrest, persecution of religious minorities, war with neighbors, and yes, theocratic law wending it's way into every day life. As others have posted, our modern outlook was forged in large part through the crucible of this strife. In addition, Christian societies have traditionally not been that coy about imposing their beliefs on others.
How was this more circumstantial in Christian societies?
Mar '12
Re: What If Muslims Just Don't Like Democracy?
Huh? I'm must admit I'm puzzled by your post. Do we live in a Christian society? I had assumed ours was a democratic Republic. Looking back, I cannot think of any Christian society from Constantine to the Boston Colony that has not struggled with violence, corruption, internal unrest, persecution of religious minorities, war with neighbors, and yes, theocratic law wending it's way into every day life. As others have posted, our modern outlook was forged in large part through the crucible of this strife. In addition, Christian societies have traditionally not been that coy about imposing their beliefs on others.
How was this more circumstantial in Christian societies?
Rachel Lu: I'm not an expert on Islamic theology, so I won't declare that Islam and democracy are intrinsically incompatible, but I find James' optimistic assessment extremely hard to buy. Are there or have there been Christian societies that also struggled with corruption and violent insurgents? Sure, but it was much more circumstantial.
7 hours ago
Apr '11
Re: What If Muslims Just Don't Like Democracy?
Do you think that at no point in history have Christian regimes been less democratic than Islamic democracies are today? Alternatively, do you think that Christianizing the whole world has never been an aim of Christians, British, European, or American?
I tend to think of successful democracies as being the historical exception. I don't understand why sub-Saharan Africa's failure is circumstantial.
May '10
Re: What If Muslims Just Don't Like Democracy?
Rachel, I don't think you are old enough ever to have lived in Palestine.
Your use of the term, that way, makes much of what follows automatically suspect. At least to me. Others here who feel that way were probably the same place I was today and not on Ricochet.
Also, your statements comparing Judaism to Islam sound awfully ignorant. Yes, Judaism has laws covering all aspects of life and providing for national governance, unlike Christianity and, on the surface, similarly to Islam. But that's where the similarity ends. Islam (and, incidentally, Christianity) seeks to universalize its belief structure: by its reckoning, all of humanity should be following sharia. Torah law is only for Jews and converts are not sought; in fact, they are actively discouraged. The "problems" you saw in Israel between different groups are Jewishly internal and, basically, no one else's business or concern.
Islam wants all in the world to comply with their laws of living and believing. Christianity, on the other hand, and (currently, at least) without violence, wants all in the world to share belief in Jesus, though not through specific laws or world government. Big, BIG differences among the three there.
Re: What If Muslims Just Don't Like Democracy?
Generalizations about what Jews, Christians and Muslims believe have some value, but I've truly never lived in a place where the differences among believers weren't more significant to them than the similarities. Let me offer a thought: An elegant theory is useful in mathematics; in the social "sciences," it's disastrous.
Sep '12
Re: What If Muslims Just Don't Like Democracy?
It sounds what Rachel is describing is the Islamic Kingdoms that exist today. This includes Saudi Arabia (the big dog), Kuwait, the Emerits, etc. I believe all have what fits as a "benevolent dictator" (or a benevolent king). There is tolerance for radical Islamists in the population, and the Koran is used to determine law, but the radicals are not near the controlling handles of the state.
BTW, why is it that GWBush caught so much guff from liberals for walking with the King of Saudi Arabia while holding his hand, and Obama is allowed to BOW to the King, and escapes criticism (except for Conservative Media)?
Ok, I do know........ never mind.