Well, Isn't This Depressing
Well, isn't this depressing:
But I don't know what it really means. Whether this is what everyone's saying, I don't know. It definitely means it's good to have some entity besides Al Jazeera reporting from Egypt, because I notice comments like that aren't featuring largely in their coverage.
As for reporting I don't trust, Fox News, you deserve all the ridicule coming your way for this:
Yeah, I'm sure it was just an accident, and accidents happen, but this kind of accident actually doesn't happen to anyone who knows anything about what's happening in Egypt. It just doesn't.
The only person whose reporting I'd trust on this at this point would be my own, and I'm not there. I'd probably doubt my own reporting, for that matter. I don't speak Arabic, and I'm really all too aware from living in Turkey that what people say to Western journalists is not necessarily what they mean. Nor is what they mean, at a given moment, a reliable guide to how they'll behave two weeks or two months later.
So for on-the-ground reporting, I don't know what to recommend, especially since they seem to have arrested the reporters from Al Jazeera.
For analysis, however, here's a good but highly depressing article by Lee Smith--who by the way notes the highly depressing side of Saad Eddine Ibrahim:
Maybe this should be one of the tests for Egypt’s democrats in the streets: Where do you stand on Israel? If they are really democrats, or just pragmatists, the young among them protesting for higher pay would answer that warmer relations with an advanced, European-style economy—like, say, Israel’s—would provide jobs for the millions of Egypt’s unemployed. Of course that is not the answer you’re going to get from the young men now filling the streets of Cairo. Or forget about Israel and ask them instead about Hezbollah. Do they support the Islamic resistance? Of course they do, because Egypt’s most famous democrat Saad Eddine Ibrahim supports Hezbollah, the outfit that has turned the remnants of Lebanese democracy on its head while killing its opponents.
And here is Andy McCarthy saying what should be obvious, but still, to my amazement, isn't about the Muslim Brotherhood. The most depressing thing about that is that it must be said. No, wait. The most depressing thing is that no one is going to listen.
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Jun '10
Re: Well, Isn't This Depressing
"... but this kind of accident actually doesn't happen to anyone who knows anything about what's happening in Egypt."
Claire, do you really think that the graphic artist or intern who puts together these visuals is preparing the reporting and gathering the intelligence for news coverage? I think you are making too much out of this. I see grammatical errors on news feeds and misidentified people quite often, but I'd don't attribute the mistakes to the in-the-field reporters or experts brought on to hash out the topic.
"...it's good to have some entity besides Al Jazeera reporting from Egypt, because I notice comments like that aren't featuring largely in their coverage."
Aren't featured largely? How about hardly at all!
Jul '10
Re: Well, Isn't This Depressing
Egypt, Iraq, whatever... as long as there are 65 different graphics on the screen right now that's all that matters.
Edited on Jan 31, 2011 at 7:41amMay '10
Re: Well, Isn't This Depressing
Well no wonder you aren't there. You went the whole opposite direction. My graphic says you're in Samarkand.
I hope those protestors, on their way to destroy Israel, don't run afoul of the Zionist Shark Patrol. (Israel is just off the toe of Italy, protestors!).
Yeesh. But can't you easily find bunches of people wandering the streets of any Middle Eastern city spouting that kind of nonsense before going off to take care of everyday business?
May '10
Re: Well, Isn't This Depressing
I predict that those who argue that Islam is compatible with classical liberalism are going to find it harder and harder to do so convincingly. The evidence that the religion itself primitivizes peoples is mounting.
I put this down to these elements in the religion.
- Its endorsement of the use of military force for religious aims, and rejection of freedom of conscience
- Its rejection of natural law
- Its sexual teachings and ethos, which tend inexorably to degrade women and brutalize men.
I'll say again what I've said before, westerners are far too little conscious of how much their freedoms are are fruit of judeo-Christian tradition and Scripture.
Jun '10
Re: Well, Isn't This Depressing
If it's "real" Islam--not neutered Islam--it's hegemonic by nature. No? Other faiths are the dying remnants of inferior pre-Islamic culture. The sooner gone, the better. Isn't that the "real" Islam? To the extent they hate the West, they're just finding their Islamic roots. No?
Sep '10
Re: Well, Isn't This Depressing
I predict that those who argue that Islam is compatible with classical liberalism are going to find it harder and harder to do so convincingly.
I don't think that's quite the argument people are making. In line with Pope Benedict XVI I think Christians as well as those who wouldn't call themselves Christians in the West have a common interest in trying to help a burgeoning realization amongst many Muslims that the present course isn't working. I'm not saying they will be successful and I grant your premises for many Muslims (I'm a regular reader of the sewers profiled by MEMRI). If we fail to do that then, of course, the inevitable clash happens. I think you can acknowledge their failings while still trying to reach those who are reachable.
Re: Well, Isn't This Depressing
StickerShock: "... but this kind of accident actually doesn't happen to anyone who knows anything about what's happening in Egypt."
Claire, do you really think that the graphic artist or intern who puts together these visuals is preparing the reporting and gathering the intelligence for news coverage?
No, I don't. But I do wonder why Fox would hire a graphic artist or an intern who not only doesn't know where Egypt is, but doesn't know where Iraq is. That map should immediately look very, very wrong to anyone who works for a major American news organization. It should look wrong to every high school student. I grant that it probably doesn't, but that's a sign that our education system is failing. I don't demand that everyone be able to identify every country in the world on a map, but a country in which we maintain a massive troop presence? The subject of the greatest foreign policy controversy of our generation? Yeah, everyone at Fox should know where that is.
May '10
Re: Well, Isn't This Depressing
Pseudodionysius: I predict that those who argue that Islam is compatible with classical liberalism are going to find it harder and harder to do so convincingly.
I don't think that's quite the argument people are making....grant your premises for many Muslims (I'm a regular reader of the sewers profiled by MEMRI). If we fail to do that then, of course, the inevitable clash happens. I think you can acknowledge their failings while still trying to reach those who are reachable. · Jan 31 at 7:56am
No doubt I bit off a much bigger piece than can be chewed in a forum like this. Or at least I should have made it a post of its own in the member feed. Maybe we can meet there on this set of topics someday, Pseud.
Meanwhile, of course we want to reach those who are reachable. The question is what will really reach them?
May '10
Re: Well, Isn't This Depressing
You're funny!
Most maps are downloaded from the AP Graphics Bank where they have labeled and unlabeled versions. All news organizations take the unlabeled versions so that they can stay consistent with the graphics package.
Sometimes these things are done so quickly no one really sees them until they hit air. But YouTube is forever.
Nov '10
Re: Well, Isn't This Depressing
I think and fear that this rioting in the streets is going the way of virtually all historical "revolutions" of which I am aware, A sort of Gresham's Law of Domestic Upheavals come into play according to which the most narrowly focused, determined, and most ruthless actors rise to the top based upon their ever more radical demands for "change", by which is meant their substitution in power for the present regime.
And, there seems almost always to be the need for those elements to consolidate their positions by focusing the energy of the crowds upon enemies, either internal, external. The elements in Egyptian society who are for any reason deemed un-Islamic (perhaps by their economic status) and Israel are most at risk here, I think.
It seems pretty hard to turn out crowds in the Middle East to march for peace, temperance, tranquility, and respect of the rights of others.
The best I have seen written on the present situation is from a Mr. Barry Rubin. See, in particular, this piece: http://www.gloria-center.org/gloria/2011/01/special-report-egypt-revolt-and-us-policy.
I see no good for the West in this.
May '10
Re: Well, Isn't This Depressing
Honestly, Claire, I didn't notice the error right away. My eyes first went to the text at the bottom. They then went to the Israel, Jordan and Iran, which are clearly highlighted to be the viewer's focus. If I had been watching this on TV, I'm sure I'd also be concentrating on whatever was being said while the map was shown, and the map would be gone within seconds.
How many people here only noticed because you implied that they should find an error?
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
The subject of the greatest foreign policy controversy of our generation? Yeah, everyone at Fox should know where that is.
Agreed. But this strikes me as no more serious than a typo, which it may well have been. Egypt is heavily on everyone's mind right now. It would be unremarkable if the word so dominating discussion bled through someone's work to replace what he or she intended to write.
May '10
Re: Well, Isn't This Depressing
I gotta disagree. A news intern that can't place Iraq is a sign of larger ignorance. When did Fox hire Rick Sanchez?
Jan '11
Re: Well, Isn't This Depressing
Re the map. I agree with the commentors that say it's a seemingly small mistake, BUT.. . . . The world these days is full of "gotcha" events, and something like this can appear on the HuffPo and deligitimize Fox News for the next few years (or at least confirm their thinking that Fox isn't a real news network). Therefore, it's a hanging offense, so to speak. I also believe that it's reflective of a poorly educated populus. It would be interesting to go to an Ivy League College and ask students to locate on a map: Scotland, France, Germany, Portugal, Iran, Iraq, Turkey, and Argentina (let alone all the -stans).
Sep '10
Re: Well, Isn't This Depressing
Or at least I should have made it a post of its own in the member feed. Maybe we can meet there on this set of topics someday, Pseud.
Definitely!
May '10
Re: Well, Isn't This Depressing
Pseudodionysius: Or at least I should have made it a post of its own in the member feed. Maybe we can meet there on this set of topics someday, Pseud.
Definitely! · Jan 31 at 8:52am
Done. See you there.
Re: Well, Isn't This Depressing
Erik Larsen: It would be interesting to go to an Ivy League College and ask students to locate on a map: Scotland, France, Germany, Portugal, Iran, Iraq, Turkey, and Argentina (let alone all the -stans). · Jan 31 at 8:52am
You know who I bet would be able to find Iraq on a map, no problem? Every man and woman in our armed forces. And probably their families, too.
Sep '10
Re: Well, Isn't This Depressing
I have no idea about whose reporting to believe. I do have a calculator and am fairly certain the population of Cairo is 18M. Protest organizers are calling for 1 million persons to protest tomorrow. If one assumes that they do not hope to attract anyone from outside Cairo that equals 5.5% of Cairo’s population. I conclude that for the past several days no more than 3% of Cairo’s population has been in the streets. Perhaps any reporting that focuses on the protesters, as most has, is not giving an accurate picture. That is what protesting is all about – presenting a distorted picture. Certainly professional journalists have figured this out but are content to produce the predictable. This says more about modern jounalism than the story.
Re: Well, Isn't This Depressing
Claire,
I'm not sure if that is a real Fox map or if it was photoshopped, but it's been hopping around the internet on anti-Fox sites since 2009. It has nothing to do with the recent issues. It's also not even close to my favorite mapflub, courtesy of CNN:
http://bit.ly/dQq1H7
Re: Well, Isn't This Depressing
Mollie Hemingway: Claire,
I'm not sure if that is a real Fox map or if it was photoshopped, but it's been hopping around the internet on anti-Fox sites since 2009. It has nothing to do with the recent issues. It's also not even close to my favorite mapflub, courtesy of CNN:
http://bit.ly/dQq1H7 · Jan 31 at 10:11am
Molly, it's real, unfortunately. But it did give rise to some hilarious photoshopped parodies. (I've been looking for them in vain.) I'm not singling out Fox here--that CNN map is appalling. The point isn't that accidents don't happen ("Elie Wiesel, Holocaust Winner" must surely be the most embarrassing one in recent memory), it's that some kinds of accidents really don't happen. I'd like to think no one, not even the equivalent of an intern, would make that mistake at USCENTCOM. And no one would make it at Al Jazeera, either--which is why they get international viewer trust and get to drive the narrative. And this is not necessarily a good thing. At all.
Re: Well, Isn't This Depressing
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
Mollie Hemingway: Claire,
I'm not sure if that is a real Fox map or if it was photoshopped, but it's been hopping around the internet on anti-Fox sites since 2009. It has nothing to do with the recent issues. It's also not even close to my favorite mapflub, courtesy of CNN:
http://bit.ly/dQq1H7 · Jan 31 at 10:11am
Molly, it's real, unfortunately. But it did give rise to some hilarious photoshopped parodies. (I've been looking for them in vain.) I'm not singling out Fox here--that CNN map is appalling.
Claire, how does one find out if things like this are real or not? I see a lot of anti-Fox/anti-Republican type things passed around via-email and social networks, and I would love to sniff out their legitimacy. How did you find out about this one? How could we find out if, say, the CNN one is real or photoshopped?