Was Shakespeare Conservative?
I've just returned from the National Review cruise, where I finally had a chance to finally meet in person several Ricochet contributors and members. It was like a huge podcast, minus Richard Epstein. In between Caribbean stops, over-eating at the buffet, and gambling the night away, NR put on a number of fascinating panels.
One of my favorites was the panel on conservative novelists, which featured Ricochet contributors Andrew Klavan and James Lileks, among others. Klavan made the daring claim that Shakespeare was conservative. Although he was set upon by others–interestingly, the more British a panelist's accent, the more he took exception–I was persuaded. He pointed to, and I thought of while he was thinking, Henry V as a clear example in his favor. What do Ricochet members think? Any plays that prove, or undermine, Klavan's point?
- Comment (42)
- · Quote
- · UnfollowFollow (4)
Comments :
Re: Was Shakespeare Conservative?
Quick aside: Having a (contemporary RP) British accent lends no one special authority on this. Elizabethan English was closer in pronunciation to contemporary American English, apparently.
Jun '10
Re: Was Shakespeare Conservative?
Conservatives know we don't live in the best of all possible worlds--indeed, we believe that man is a fallen (or imperfect) creature, whose sojourn in life is subject to adversity, tragedy, and "unfairness."
This line from Hamlet (I believe) seems to capture that reality very well: "When sorrows come, they come not as single spies. But in battalions."
That sentiment, I believe, presents a fundamentally conservative view of life (as VDH would say, "the tragic view of life").
Edited on Nov 19, 2011 at 8:00amJun '10
Re: Was Shakespeare Conservative?
As Johnny Carson used to say: "I did not know that." John Wayne and Jimmy Stewart should have played Shakespeare. Thanks, Claire.
Aug '10
Re: Was Shakespeare Conservative?
One thing is for sure - somebody really missed Michael Walsh's point- who was that guy ?? Probably someone from Agenda 21 ...
Edited on Nov 19, 2011 at 8:06amYour input was outstanding .
May '10
Re: Was Shakespeare Conservative?
Conservative means such very different things in different historical and political contexts, doesn't it?
But, besides the tragic and comic views of life, alien to the liberal ethos, Shakespeare believed in God, in absolute moral norms, transcendence, duty, courtesy.
May '10
Re: Was Shakespeare Conservative?
tabula rasa
As Johnny Carson used to say: "I did not know that." John Wayne and Jimmy Stewart should have played Shakespeare. Thanks, Claire. · Nov 19 at 7:57am
I've heard that the closest approximation to Shakespearean English to be found in the world today is in isolated communities in the Appalachian Mountains.
Jun '10
Re: Was Shakespeare Conservative?
katievs
tabula rasa
As Johnny Carson used to say: "I did not know that." John Wayne and Jimmy Stewart should have played Shakespeare. Thanks, Claire. · Nov 19 at 7:57am
I've heard that the closest approximation to Shakespearean English to be found in the world today is in isolated communities in the Appalachian Mountains. · Nov 19 at 8:07am
So Deliverance was Shakespearean (at least vocally). Who would have known?
May '10
Re: Was Shakespeare Conservative?
Shakespeare the man, is almost totally absent from his works. I do not think we can decide what he believed from his works.
I do think it is clear, however, that Shakespeare had one of the best understandings of human nature of any writer of the English language. I also think he was writing for money, and he knew what would sell (as understanding Mankind so well would let him do).
I am not sure how someone could so well understand the Human condition, and not fit in more with the "conservative" side of things as we understand them. Still, what we see as "liberal" is a post-industrial mindset. Shakespeare would not have understood the leftists attack on nationhood, for instance.
Also, if you look at plays like Macbeth, Hamlet and Lear, there is a non-republican theme that if the man at the top is broken or evil, the state of the nation follows. This is not really an American take on the world. It is not a leftist take either. It fits the place and time of the writing.
Mar '11
Re: Was Shakespeare Conservative?
I think the starkest counter example is Lear's speech out on the storm tossed heath:
Take Physic, Pomp;
Expose thyself to feel what wretches feel,
That thou mayst shake the superflux to them,
And show the heavens more just.
I've heard that this speech was the focus when Lear was occasionally played behind the iron curtain.
Jun '10
Re: Was Shakespeare Conservative?
katievs: Conservative means such very different things in different historical and political contexts, doesn't it?
But, besides the tragic and comic views of life, alien to the liberal ethos, Shakespeare believed in God, in absolute moral norms, transcendence, duty, courtesy. · Nov 19 at 8:04am
I agree. Given that four centuries have past since he wrote, we can never know for sure. But when you go to Shakespeare's first principles (Katievs has outlined several) Shakespeare seems more aligned with a conservative view of life.
Also, Shakespeare obviously had a great sense of humor (which means he was positively non-politically correct). Compare this to most modern liberals (just run through MSNBC's evening line-up, and add Olberman), who are most humorless creatures on earth.
Edited on Nov 19, 2011 at 8:28amJan '11
Re: Was Shakespeare Conservative?
Shakespeare belonged to a time when the divine right of kings (despite their glaring flaws and sins) was still a subconscious axiom. A modern conservative might look at the plays and see things that support conservatism, but I'm not sure Shakespeare intended them that way.
On the other hand, Shakespeare held a very traditional view of morality and life. After all, the sins against traditional values were precisely what drove the drama.
Think of MacBeth. If that play had been written today by a modern relativist, the writer would have been looking to justify MacBeth - which Shakespeare plainly didn't. Unlike modern drama, Shakespeare depends on the audience's commitment to moral standards to reveal something about his characters. He doesn't use his characters as instruments to say something about morality. His plays are about characters, not morality.
In fact, what happens to the character you'd consider a relativist (Hamlet)? Everyone winds up dead!
Re: Was Shakespeare Conservative?
Shakespeare was not a political utopian, and he was certainly a friend to marriage.
Apr '11
Re: Was Shakespeare Conservative?
Going a bit off-topic here, but the earlier comments about accents reminded me of this--
"Did Americans in 1776 have British Accents?"
http://www.nicholasjohnpatrick.com/post/767354896/did-americans-in-1776-have-british-accents
Something I like to share with my English friends/acquaintances when the inevitable topic comes up (usually it involves a Brit commenting about how we Yanks have "mangled" their language;-)
Apr '11
Re: Was Shakespeare Conservative?
I'd say that this is a fool's errand. I'd throw my lot in with Harold Bloom's observation that where ever you are, Billy got there first and, once more, way ahead of you. You don't read Shakespeare. Shakespeare reads you. Our imaginations are too small a bounds for his world.
Nov '11
Re: Was Shakespeare Conservative?
He was very aware of the power of demagoguery (take the crowd scenes in Julius Caesar) and of the dangers of mob rule. It reads like an argument against simple majority rule.
He seems to have much too skeptical of human nature to buy into the progressive movement.
Jun '10
Re: Was Shakespeare Conservative?
Oranjeman: I'd say that this is a fool's errand. I'd throw my lot in with Harold Bloom's observation that where ever you are, Billy got there first and, once more, way ahead of you. You don't read Shakespeare. Shakespeare reads you. Our imaginations are too small a bounds for his world.
· Nov 19 at 10:00am
I take your point that Shakespeare got there first on the big issues, but I think they are not beyond the scope of reasonable analysis, and what I see is a man (a man bigger than his world) with a fundamentally conservative outlook on life.
For example, given his output, I think one can reasonably conclude that he understood the need for hard work and self-reliance.
I don't see him being a big supporter of the Occupy Stratford movement, particularly if they moved in next to the Globe and played their stupid drums during a performance.
Edited on Nov 19, 2011 at 11:18amApr '11
Re: Was Shakespeare Conservative?
Shakespeare's talents lie in accurately portraying people of varying political positions. We gather his views because people with disfavored views are made to seem unappealing. Since we find people with our views more appealing, there is a high degree of subjectivity to the results we get. In the play written by God, as I watch it right now, it seems that he's given the Democrats a lot of dumb lines, making them look foolish and/ or corrupt. I have friends, though, who appear to be watching a completely different play, and whose understanding of God's revealed politics runs entirely counter to mine.
Henry V is an interesting example. Many see Henry as a hero, despite Henry IV.2, but to get there they generally have to edit the script significantly. In particular, they tend to remove the lines "Then every soldier kill his prisoners: Give the word through." It's easy to see Henry as either a terrible villain or a bold hero. The political lessons one takes from the play will probably be influenced by that.
Aug '10
Re: Was Shakespeare Conservative?
Very well put, James.
Re: Was Shakespeare Conservative?
Shakespeare was, like Plato, principally interested in presenting all the different aspects of the phenomena he depicts. In other words, he was not a partisan of particular causes in the ordinary way of looking at these things.
But he was conservative in the sense that he did not think human nature could be transformed. Shakespeare's universe is moral to the point of ruthlessness. Those who make mistakes, even if they are well-intentioned, are punished harshly. Think of Lear and Cordelia! Of course this is especially evident in the tragedies and histories; the comedies (and romances, if that is a genuine genre) are more complicated.
I wonder if Shakespeare is not suggesting that knowledge is virtue.
May '10
Re: Was Shakespeare Conservative?
That's only true for those who don't realize that "Shakespeare" is the nom de plume for Edward de Vere, XVIIth Earl of Oxford.
Grant that, and the man is all over the works. But I realize that's stuff for another thread.