Walt Whitman on the Free Market
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May 12, 2011 at 8:51am
Every day I walk past a poster with this quotation written on it
"To be good poets, there must be good audiences too."
-Walt Whitman
While I'm sure Whitman didn't intend his quote to mean this, I think it represents what is basically the biggest failure of the free market (I'm not saying the free market is a failure here. It's by far the best economic system that exists today, but that doesn't mean it's perfect): The free market provides what people want, not necessarily what's best. This is why we end up with people like Justin Bieber and rap music. Basically, to have the best capitalism, you need good consumers.
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Dec '10
Re: Walt Whitman on the Free Market
This post reminded me of the favorite quote from the late great Paul Harvey who was quick to remind all that "Self government requires self discipline."
Jul '10
Re: Walt Whitman on the Free Market
No one ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public.
Nov '10
Re: Walt Whitman on the Free Market
Please define what you mean by best. FWIW, my musical interests are primarily classical, but I certainly don't begrudge the tweenies (or others) their Bieber, Rebecca Black, or rap. We all have to start somewhere. And in return I have a good collection of music - recordings and sheet music - all products of the capitalist market. And there's still good music being put out - e.g. Glass or Pärt or Hatzis, or the stuff done by Kronos Quartet - all courtesy of the free market.
Apr '11
Re: Walt Whitman on the Free Market
Thank you, Halifax, I was going to make the same point. Since you did so perfectly eloquently, I'll move on to a subsequent point, which is that if you have elite tastes, you can't expect most services to appeal to you, by definition. We might think we prefer that everyone shared our tastes, but (taking the music example) if everyone were into classical music, I think the Mozartians would still look down their noses at the gauche Wagnerians. It's human to stratify.
Another point worth expanding on is that there is excellent art being produced by the free market - and what's more, being made available to the public at low cost. Virginia Postrel has a book on it called The Substance of Style. Her thesis - and I'm convinced it's true - is that as everyday goods have improved to the point where they don't have to compete on quality, they now compete on style.
Advertisements are another example. Obviously many ads are trash, but the same could be said of many sonatas. There are some that are, frankly, works of genius. And we get them for free, courtesy of the market.
Aug '10
Re: Walt Whitman on the Free Market
Art and the marketplace have a very tenuous relationship. The more the marketplace dominates the relationship, the more art resembles a commodity - bland and similar.
Many creative professionals agree that what is commercially most successful is often not all that creative. But those same professionals long for a commercial success to pay for a house, a car, or the kid's education.
And to be fair, people making their living in the world of popular music think of their work more as a craft than an art.
Oct '10
Re: Walt Whitman on the Free Market
I'm not sure that this is a persuasive argument for the free market at work.. how much support for this comes from the National Endowment for the Arts, and various state and local agencies?
Aug '10
Re: Walt Whitman on the Free Market
Dan,
Your point is valid for capitalism, democracy or religion. None of these institutions will function properly without worthy adherents (by worthy I mean educated, responsible, honest and wise).
No form of economic system or government will work for an irresponsible and dishonest people.
Sep '10
Re: Walt Whitman on the Free Market
Songwriter: Art and the marketplace have a very tenuous relationship. The more the marketplace dominates the relationship, the more art resembles a commodity..
Many creative professionals agree that what is commercially most successful is often not all that creative.
..people making their living in the world of popular music think of their work more as a craft than an art. ·
Good points. There is a lot out there, you just have to look. And many of us are hypnotised by television and mass entertainment expecting the McDonald's boobtube to deliver gourmet meals. See Brian Watt's recent post.
I also want to take this opportunity to challenge Ricochet commenters and posters on this quote.
"To be good poets, there must be good audiences too."
Some seem to post and post and rarely comment or give encouragement or feedback. I've been writing sometimes for a few hours, as opposed to throwing up a video or a question, and get almost nothing in return. I have no idea if anyone is even reading it or if they agree or disagree.I don't want to make this about me either - so I'm not looking for responses here.
Mar '11
Re: Walt Whitman on the Free Market
Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Totally agree. This is a point that has had me and others angry (almost curmugdeony) for quite some time now. At least with regards to music When it comes to art, capitalism is extremely poor at promoting quality. It seems the vast majority of people are content to please themselves with the vapid, luddite, philistine music of the Beatles or Jay Z, rather than spend the slightest amount of effort learning musical notation and studying music theory.
The vast majority of people have absolutely no interest in harmony, musical couterpoint, or rhythmic complextity. What's extremely sad is, when you say you're someone who enjoys music, people automatically assume you mean pop music. People have absolutely no awareness for serious music. Whats worse, most people seem to think the classical music is old music, while pop and rap today is new. They've never heard of Milton Babbitt (R.I.P.), or Pierre Boulez. They have absolutely no appreciation for modern music.
It's terribly depressing. I'm really conflicted on this issue. On the one hand, I want to minimize government influence. But I would also love for Elliott Carter to receive more support.
Edited on May 12, 2011 at 10:50amMar '11
Re: Walt Whitman on the Free Market
This has been a problem since the early twenties. Once the more important composers began to pursue more complex ideas (serialism) people immediately began to flee the classical music scene. Instead they wanted to hear the music of horrible pop-composers like Sibelius or Ralph Vaughn Williams, thus the birth of pop music and what would eventually evolve into Elvis and the Rolling Stones.. Even Socialism failed in this regard. The Soviets sought to promote second-rate pastiche like Prokofiev. Socialism has a long history of opposing serious music and fostering an environment sympathetic only to populism.
So capitalism and socialism both fail to promote good music. What does this mean?
It means Peter Robinson needs to get Harrison Birtwistle and Elliott Carter on Uncommon Knowledge ASAP ;). I only wish Peter had gotten Milton Babbitt on the show. He was even politically conservative.
Edited on May 12, 2011 at 10:43amAug '10
Re: Walt Whitman on the Free Market
Let's get one thing clear, Rap is NOT music!
A good analogy is modern art - takes no talent, anyone can do it and the popularity is more about the politics of the "artist" than the "art" itself.
Dec '10
Re: Walt Whitman on the Free Market
I love Rap. The very fact that if you had your way Rap wouldn't have even the small share of the market it does now says to me that the free market is working just fine. I would argue that the free market is producing some of the best music ever. Simply because cultural taste have changed over the years and people are exploring different forms doesn't mean that that music is degrading, it just means its not standing still.
I have been expose to and grew up with classical music. My father loves the stuff, but the idea that I am less of a serious music lover because I am more emotionally moved by Jay-Z or intellectually stimulated by Lupe Fiasco than Bach is ridiculous.
Apr '11
Re: Walt Whitman on the Free Market
Frozen Chosen: Let's get one thing clear, Rap is NOT music!
A good analogy is modern art - takes no talent, anyone can do it and the popularity is more about the politics of the "artist" than the "art" itself. · May 12 at 9:38am
I'm going to go out on a limb here, be a contrarian, and disagree with you - in part. (And I dislike most rap "music", too, btw.) The part I agree with you on is that rap is not music. Heck, when Ravel wrote Bolero he noted that he had written an entire piece without a note of music in it. If Bolero isn't music, most pop isn't either, and rap even less so.
But I still contend that rap is a higher form of art than throwing paint at canvas randomly. It's important here to separate content from form. The content of most rap is execrable (cop killing, beeyotches, representin') but the form is actually highly complex and entertaining poetry. Rap is modernized poetry, with modern rhythms and meters. If you like Stravinsky you should at least appreciate the meters of (good) rap. Here's an example of good rap.
Nov '10
Re: Walt Whitman on the Free Market
It’s a leftist idea to believe the utopian vision of a world that could be made perfect if only the right people gain enough control. Reality is that everything is a trade off. The free market may not deliver exactly what any of us thinks would be the best, and it delivers a lot of what we may thing is the worst. It’s not perfect and sometimes it’s not even very good, but every other way of getting anything always delivers the most junk. At least the free market has feedback loops that send rejection slips to the providers of things nobody wants.
The National Endowment of the Arts is a financial benefit to artists who can’t sell their art but it does so by turning artists into parasites creating a steady supply of trash art nobody wants, and uses the power of government taxation to force everyone to pay for it.
I’d say good poetry requires an audience with the freedom to choose what they will read, and maybe pay for. Only NEA poets can make any money off poetry.
Dec '10
Re: Walt Whitman on the Free Market
Will someone please explain to me how rap is not music? What definition of "music" or "song" are you using that would not include rap?
Apr '11
Re: Walt Whitman on the Free Market
Abdiel: If the free market prefers Sibelius to Babbitt, I'm all for the free market!
Aug '10
Re: Walt Whitman on the Free Market
Yes. "Best" is obviously (at least to me) what I like -- and consumers at large seem to make incorrect judgments about quality on a regular basis. ;)
Sep '10
Re: Walt Whitman on the Free Market
It means you have a minority opinion of what constitutes "good" music. Nothing more.
If you feel strongly about your preferences, go out and subsidize them yourself.
Jun '10
Re: Walt Whitman on the Free Market
If we consider music an amalgam of harmony, rhythm, and melody, rap is not music, as it is all rhythm just as poetry is rhythm. The question, however, remains: Is rap or hip hop poetry? And the answer is yes. We, as individuals, may prefer not to listen to rap, but our rejection is not proof of inartistry. Setting aside themes, poetry and rap are all about rhythm and rhyme. Ravel, who composed Bolero, was reported to have said in reflection that he wished he had never compose that "bit of syncopation," which should give pause and stimulate a good deal of debate on the nature of music. And when I write debate, I don't mean whether Bolero is good or bad music, I mean debate about what constitutes music. For example, we know that speech is not music even though speech has rhythm and pace, especially when it comes in the form of great oration. "I have a dream" comes to mind as a speech that approaches poetry in its rhythmic quality. Indeed, it might even be considered musical. It is the height of solipsist arrogance to believe a thing we do not like is not artistic.
Mar '11
Re: Walt Whitman on the Free Market
Mark Belling Fan
It means you have a minority opinion of what constitutes "good" music. Nothing more.
If you feel strongly about your preferences, go out and subsidize them yourself. · May 12 at 10:15am
Me, and just about every other credible music theorist and composer alive today >_<. At least I'm in good (mostly) company.
Edited on May 12, 2011 at 10:33am