Under What Circumstances Is Military Conscription Acceptable?
Under What Circumstances Is Military Conscription Acceptable?
I've been working on a piece of fiction that includes conscription, so it's been on my brain lately and the above question occurred to me to ask you all.
To be clear, conscription is
Conscription is the compulsory enlistment of people in some sort of national service, most often military service
And by compulsory, they mean if you refuse, you go to jail. And by acceptable, I mean you supporting forcing other people into the military.
The way I see it there are five possible positions on the question
1. Conscription is acceptable any time the manpower needs of the US military require it. (Peacetime draft)
2. Conscription is acceptable during any war, foreign or domestic, where the manpower needs of the US military require it. (Vietnam, Korea)
3. Conscription is acceptable during any war, foreign or domestic, where the United States has been directly attacked. (World War 2)
4. Conscription is acceptable during any war where the United States has been directly invaded by a foreign military.
5. Conscription is unacceptable under any circumstances.
(I didn't include the Civil War on that list because I'm sure there's a wide range of opinions about where it would fall.)
As Ricochet's resident anarchist (Don't freak out! I'm the good kind of anarchist!), I hold position #5.
I consider conscription unacceptable under any circumstances. I see it as a form of legalized enslavement. I would not support it even if the United States were invaded by the Soviet Union.
That is not to say I would not fight. I most certainly would. I just would not consider it acceptable to force others to fight.
What if that would mean the end of the United States otherwise? If things reached such a state that people would not fight to maintain its existence, then that means things are so bad that it does not deserve to continue.
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Comments:
Dec '11
Re: Under What Circumstances Is Military Conscription Acceptable?
Alan Weick: The Constitution specifically authorizes Congress to "raise and support armies".
. · 1 minute ago
This does not legitimize conscription. The historical context is raising a volunteer army but going out and recruiting volunteers. Even if you did actually believe this, it would be superceded by the 13th amendment whose explicit exception denies the existence of other exceptions.
May '10
Re: Under What Circumstances Is Military Conscription Acceptable?
Alan, military service can very easily become a nuisance. Maybe 50% of the lower enlisted in my company regret their enlistments; many count down their remaining days. Perhaps with a few exceptions, being deployed sucks.
Jan '11
Re: Under What Circumstances Is Military Conscription Acceptable?
Conscription for all citizens, male and female, including the disabled, for a period of one year, except in times of war when the period should be indefinite.
The conscripted need not be assigned to the military, there are other services to the country which would serve the nation as well or better. The problem with non-military assignments is that the unions would oppose them vehemently. But, about that, I don't care a bit.
As with all necessities and pleasures of life, and that includes citizenship, there ought to be some effort related to obtaining them. Paying taxes alone is like buying privileges. Enjoying the protections of the nation without contributing some sweat equity just doesn't seem right.
Jan '11
Re: Under What Circumstances Is Military Conscription Acceptable?
Samuel Amaral: I go with option 5.
Maybe I don't like my country, but I don't see myself either dying for it or being forced into dying for it. · 3 hours ago
Maybe you don't like your country?
Canada is due north. Just a reminder if buying the blessings of this country on the cheap, as you do, gets complicated. A citizen without a sense of allegiance to his country isn't worth much as a citizen, but my guess is you take the benefits without a sense of shame.
May '11
Re: Under What Circumstances Is Military Conscription Acceptable?
A better question would be "under what conditions is anarchism acceptable?". Answer, none. There are no good anarchists. You're either an anarchist or you're not, and if you are, then you are my enemy. Time to put away childish things, including this little quiz.
Jun '10
Re: Under What Circumstances Is Military Conscription Acceptable?
Mendel: For those of you on Ricochet who have served, could any of you give a rough idea about how much of your decision to enlist was based on economic factors vs. a sense of patriotism and duty?
Since there seems to be a consensus that military service should be voluntary and encouraged through incentives, I am curious as to what role the patriotism "incentive" plays in what is otherwise a market-based decision.
And, regardless of your reason for joining, thanks for protecting my cowardly butt. · 5 hours ago
I joined the Army because I lacked discipline and focus in my life, and military service would either instill some virtues or break me in the process. I would also be doing something honorable and worthwhile in the process. A Private (E1) made less than $1000/month when I enlisted, so money and financial incentives were most definitely not a factor.
Jun '10
Re: Under What Circumstances Is Military Conscription Acceptable?
If this is so, then why, as British subjects, did we take so much umbrage to press-ganging? And after the founding of our nation, why did it take us close to 80 years to institute national conscription? We didn't have it in our fight for independence, for the 1812 conflict -- when Daniel Webster spoke so eloquently against the evils of the system -- any of the Indian Wars before or after 1861, and we didn't have it in the war with Mexico. Not until the Civil War did we start conscripting men, and part of the reason for that was to rein in the threat of sedition. It was Woodrow Wilson, that arch-demon of totalitarianism, who instituted the modern system. Nothing that man did is worthy of emulation, especially this.
Dec '11
Re: Under What Circumstances Is Military Conscription Acceptable?
I guess that I would say it can be considered acceptable in only the most drastic situations. My problems with military conscription is that they tend to have poor morale, poor training, be poorly equipped, etc. Generally speaking an army with conscripted soldiers would be larger than it would be otherwise, but you would have a lot of more causalities. However there are certain situations that demand additional manpower in order to avoid disaster. Also some jobs slots are able to tolerate a drafted person in it(For example a security guard in an area that is not considered particularly valuable or dangerous). So I guess I'm saying when it is necessary but not when it is just desirable.
Dec '11
Re: Under What Circumstances Is Military Conscription Acceptable?
Byron Horatio
Are you ex-military? Just curious. I have never met ONE active military member, combat veterans and support, who thought conscription was a good idea.
I just would like to say that I served. I only would support conscription in the most extreme of circumstances, but I would still support it given those circumstances. My biggest problem with conscripts is how poorly they fight, but some is better than none. So most extreme of circumstances. A country shouldn't tie its hands behind its back in warfare (lets you know my stance on the Geneva Convention as well), unless it is calling to be inevitably cut down by the reaper.
Jun '10
Re: Under What Circumstances Is Military Conscription Acceptable?
Sisyphus
No, I know this because it is the consensus opinion of the hundreds of war fighters, support personnel, and veterans from all roles I have met in in a 30+ year career of supporting the military, liberals, conservatives, anarchists, and apolitical. Dogma is nice if one needs to motivate a draft force in boot camp and hard core combat duty, but that consensus says you cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Great leadership may raise a draft unit to very high levels, ...VDH argues (Carnage and Culture, and others) that the draft army is better. That you get eruptions like Sherman's march through the South and Patton's march to Bastogne from men forced by an enemy to accept their draft and stand their... · 4 hours ago
VDH supports my premise! The threat made them soldiers and LEADERSHIP made them fight. You supported the military—which again supports my premise... [Ed.: Edited for various CoC violations.]
Edited on January 21, 2012 at 7:26amMay '11
Re: Under What Circumstances Is Military Conscription Acceptable?
If the enemy hordes are coming over the hill and massing to wipe our culture and civilization out, then a draft is appropriate. Sometimes it takes coercion to convince people not to run or quit. This is a fact of human existence.
Does this mean the state is more valuable than the individual? Not really. It means that human beings are easily swayed by the fear of the moment.
That being said, I'm referring to only a very very extreme peril. In all other circumstances, a draft is repugnant and I have no wish to have draftees fighting with me. They are more trouble than they are worth.
Edited on January 21, 2012 at 5:08amMay '11
Re: Under What Circumstances Is Military Conscription Acceptable?
I remember when I joined my first unit as a lieutenant of Marines in 1985 that some of the officers who had been around in the days of the draft told me that back then it wasn't safe for an officer to tour his men's barracks without an escort and a side arm. The draftees were unruly and potentially violent. The discipline problems predominated every aspect of the job. This is not even remotely true anymore. We don't need or want a draft.
Aug '10
Re: Under What Circumstances Is Military Conscription Acceptable?
I had a few reasons. I wanted to fly airplanes since I was about 4 - I even remember the day I figured it out. By the time I was in high school I had figured out the best place to go and be on a good path to learning to fly was to go to USAFA. My family's economic position helped reinforce the idea of going to a school where the cost isn't economic in nature - but the application process took the better part of a year, so it wasn't for the faint of heart.
The post USAFA cost was a five year commitment, however the commitment for pilot training was 8 years following graduation of UPT. The commitment today is wings plus 10 - a decade contract in exchange for learning to fly.
Nov '11
Re: Under What Circumstances Is Military Conscription Acceptable?
The good kind.
Jun '10
Re: Under What Circumstances Is Military Conscription Acceptable?
Byron Horatio
Are you ex-military? Just curious. I have never met ONE active military member, combat veterans and support, who thought conscription was a good idea. Why? Because they'd be the unlucky ones put in charge of people who had fundamental contempt for the military and for their superiors. It's hard enough managing people who have volunteered. @ Mendel (#38)
I joined for love of country and out of hatred for the jihadist menace. If pay was reduced to minimum wage, I would not leave. I feel no similar sense of purpose in the civilian world. · 5 hours ago
Byron,I am retired military (Infantry, Airborne, Ranger, Special Forces). I served in the Army at the end of VietNam when we had draftees and the new Volunteer Army. Draftees were as good as or better than most. You mentioned manageing soldiers who don’t want to be there... [Ed.: Edited for various CoC violations.]
Edited on January 21, 2012 at 7:26amJun '10
Re: Under What Circumstances Is Military Conscription Acceptable?
Guruforhire
My wall of medals calls you a liar. · 4 hours ago
My wall of medals and qualifications (Infantry, airborne, Ranger, special forces) calls you a "WIMP"! :)))
Jun '10
Re: Under What Circumstances Is Military Conscription Acceptable?
[Ed.: Deleted for various violations of the CoC]
Edited on January 21, 2012 at 7:02amDec '11
Re: Under What Circumstances Is Military Conscription Acceptable?
Fred Cole
The good kind. · 8 minutes ago
I am actually a little curious, in what way are you the "good" kind? Are you referring to limited to a level that libertarians like Ron Paul suggest, or do you support the total destruction of order? Just curious.
May '10
Re: Under What Circumstances Is Military Conscription Acceptable?
Fred Cole
The good kind. · 12 minutes ago
As in what is your political philosophy? "Anarchist" leaves a lot unexplained.
May '10
Re: Under What Circumstances Is Military Conscription Acceptable?
TerryW
Guruforhire
My wall of medals calls you a liar. · 4 hours ago
My wall of medals and qualifications (Infantry, airborne, Ranger, special forces) calls you a "WIMP"! :))) · 12 minutes ago
As in you've worn the tabs, all of em?