Under What Circumstances Is Military Conscription Acceptable?
Under What Circumstances Is Military Conscription Acceptable?
I've been working on a piece of fiction that includes conscription, so it's been on my brain lately and the above question occurred to me to ask you all.
To be clear, conscription is
Conscription is the compulsory enlistment of people in some sort of national service, most often military service
And by compulsory, they mean if you refuse, you go to jail. And by acceptable, I mean you supporting forcing other people into the military.
The way I see it there are five possible positions on the question
1. Conscription is acceptable any time the manpower needs of the US military require it. (Peacetime draft)
2. Conscription is acceptable during any war, foreign or domestic, where the manpower needs of the US military require it. (Vietnam, Korea)
3. Conscription is acceptable during any war, foreign or domestic, where the United States has been directly attacked. (World War 2)
4. Conscription is acceptable during any war where the United States has been directly invaded by a foreign military.
5. Conscription is unacceptable under any circumstances.
(I didn't include the Civil War on that list because I'm sure there's a wide range of opinions about where it would fall.)
As Ricochet's resident anarchist (Don't freak out! I'm the good kind of anarchist!), I hold position #5.
I consider conscription unacceptable under any circumstances. I see it as a form of legalized enslavement. I would not support it even if the United States were invaded by the Soviet Union.
That is not to say I would not fight. I most certainly would. I just would not consider it acceptable to force others to fight.
What if that would mean the end of the United States otherwise? If things reached such a state that people would not fight to maintain its existence, then that means things are so bad that it does not deserve to continue.
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Comments :
May '11
Re: Under What Circumstances Is Military Conscription Acceptable?
I couldn't disagree more. As citizens we do have a duty to our country. Conscription is one of the prices and costs of being a citizen of our great country. We've been so caught up in civil liberties the last 50 years we forgot about our duty as citizens.
May '11
Re: Under What Circumstances Is Military Conscription Acceptable?
I take the Heinlein position. Conscription is evil. Any country that can't raise an army of its citizens to defend it in time of need doesn't deserve to survive.
Nov '11
Re: Under What Circumstances Is Military Conscription Acceptable?
So its okay to force other people at gunpoint to fight for it?
Dec '11
Re: Under What Circumstances Is Military Conscription Acceptable?
I agree with essentially everything the OP said.
Slavery = Bad
Its a pretty good rule of thumb.
Edited on Jan 19 at 2:30pmApr '11
Re: Under What Circumstances Is Military Conscription Acceptable?
The choice is this. If you wish to be part of US society you must subject yourself to conscription in time of need to defend that society. If you refuse conscription you refuse membership in that society. Jail is where we send people who refuse to be part of society. We could banish them I guess, but I doubt that is practical now and they may just choose jail instead...
Jul '10
Re: Under What Circumstances Is Military Conscription Acceptable?
Robert Heinlein, science fiction author and Naval Academy graduate, dismissed draft militaries as slave militaries, and inherently inferior to volunteer militaries, based on the experience of WW I.
In my extensive experience supporting military customers, the subject has frequently come up and I do not recall a single fan of the draft military over the volunteer military from among those who served in both.
In WW II, it was broadly said that the draft gave family men an excuse to do the honorable thing and serve. Both my grandfathers volunteered at the start of the war, and one found himself divorced for his service. FDR pushed through legislation making it impossible to divorce service personnel without their consent as a result of a rush of abandoned spouses for the exit.
In my own calculation, holding and submitting to a draft becomes a moral imperative in the face of an existential threat to the nation that requires a draft to be met. My experts assure me that the differences in quality are so extreme, this could never happen, because a small, well-equipped, well-trained professional force of volunteers is so superior to any drafted opposition.
Dec '11
Re: Under What Circumstances Is Military Conscription Acceptable?
I am not a servant of the State. Conscription is slavery.
Nov '11
Re: Under What Circumstances Is Military Conscription Acceptable?
No. WRONG. Jail is where we send people who break laws. Laws are the majority forcing their willing on the minority.
If I were to become a hermit, I'd be refusing to be a part of society. By refusing to interact with others, would I be harming them?
You could use your argument to argue for any government atrocity.
For example, the individual health insurance mandate:
Jun '10
Re: Under What Circumstances Is Military Conscription Acceptable?
For sure in no. 4, and also yes for no. 3. I probably land somewhere between 2 and 3.
If the country is facing existential threat, I strongly believe at that point that government compulsion (as a duty of citizenship) to serve is appropriate. My Dad was a draftee in WWII--it was the right thing.
May '11
Re: Under What Circumstances Is Military Conscription Acceptable?
You are a citizen. Do you not beleive you have any duties as a citizen? Particapating in a democracy means its' citizens serve their nation when needed. Is the duty of citizenship akin to slavery?
Dec '11
Re: Under What Circumstances Is Military Conscription Acceptable?
You are a citizen. Do you not beleive you have any duties as a citizen? Particapating in a democracy means its' citizens serve their nation when needed. Is the duty of citizenship akin to slavery?
Do I have the duty to march off as a slave of the state to fight stupid wars like Iraq and Afghanistan? No, I have a duty to resist that. If the state chooses to clap me in irons for my resistance, so be it - at least I would be a prisoner, not a slave.
May '11
Re: Under What Circumstances Is Military Conscription Acceptable?
Nobody's Perfect: You are a citizen. Do you not beleive you have any duties as a citizen? Particapating in a democracy means its' citizens serve their nation when needed. Is the duty of citizenship akin to slavery?
Do I have the duty to march off as a slave of the state to fight stupid wars like Iraq and Afghanistan? No, I have a duty to resist that. If the state chooses to clap me in irons for my resistance, so be it - at least I would be a prisoner, not a slave. · 8 minutes ago
Maybe we don't get into stupid wars or get out them faster if the citizens have to face the consequences themselves of going to war. Not a lot of protesting of the Vietnam War after 1972 when the draft ended. The problem or war now is that it's an abstraction to us. Let's kick some butt as long as it's somebody else putting their life on the line for my patriotism and vanity.
Oct '10
Re: Under What Circumstances Is Military Conscription Acceptable?
NP: Do you also refuse jury duty? These are the only two non-voluntary actions demanded of a citizen by our government, one national and the other local.
I am very uncomfortable with the draft, especially since the political class has exempted their own in the recent past, and treat wars now as political calculations as long as a large and unacceptable number of Americans do not die.
The very idea of sending Americans to die in a war when the champagne and hors d'oeuvres remain a part of the wealth and political class during "wartime".
Britain endured WW II in a way that justified requiring their citizens to carry a gun. America hasn't done that since WW II either.
Jul '11
Re: Under What Circumstances Is Military Conscription Acceptable?
I was getting ready to quote this. Good show!
Jul '11
Re: Under What Circumstances Is Military Conscription Acceptable?
I sent one boy off 4 years ago and have another ready to join in 2 years. Our volunteer system is well and alive. I have no patriotism or vanity when I think about it, mostly fear. We are not Israel surrounded by hostile fringe lunatics without core values we can relate to.
When we get invaded by China or Russia I'll drag my middle aged body out of mothballs and sign right up. Not in my lifetime do I expect such folly though.
Nov '11
Re: Under What Circumstances Is Military Conscription Acceptable?
Those are far from the only non-voluntary actions. Every Friday, when I get my paycheck, I am reminded of another.
And there is no risk to bodily harm in jury duty.
Nov '11
Re: Under What Circumstances Is Military Conscription Acceptable?
tabula rasa: For sure in no. 4, and also yes for no. 3. I probably land somewhere between 2 and 3.
If the country is facing existential threat, I strongly believe at that point that government compulsion (as a duty of citizenship) to serve is appropriate. My Dad was a draftee in WWII--it was the right thing. · 2 hours ago
I see, so if its existence is threatened, the state may put its welfare before that of your own?
Jul '10
Re: Under What Circumstances Is Military Conscription Acceptable?
Absolutely opposed to the draft, though if the country were invaded, we must do what we must to survive, and I'd support conscription. I have been partial to Heinlein's argument for some time that while conscription is a bad thing, certain citizen rights should be earned rather than entitled through some sort of military or defense service. In his book, you pay taxes and don't have to join the military, but you can't vote unless you serve.
Jul '11
Re: Under What Circumstances Is Military Conscription Acceptable?
Absolutely Byron Horatio, one of the best treasures of literature that so few truly know. When the military coup saved earth from the brink of destruction wrought by the social scientists....
Jul '10
Re: Under What Circumstances Is Military Conscription Acceptable?
So, All Men ain't created equal?