UC Davis Pepper Spray Incident: What Really Happened
Two weeks ago Claire Berlinski wrote a post titled UC Davis Cops: That's Illegal in which she said
I watched this video with incredulity. ... No one of common sense can watch that video and say, "That's just how the cops should have handled that."
The video showed an officer the police department at the University of California, Davis liberally applying orange pepper spray onto the faces and hands of a line of seated protesters. Admittedly, without any context that kind of police action is always jarring, and some members agreed with Claire in that they had trouble imagining the context would exonerate the police.
(Warning: profanity)
Well, here's a video that shows the interaction between the Occupy protesters and the campus police in the minutes leading up to the pepper spraying. It has some profanity sprinkled in toward the middle, so watch at your own discretion.
- Comment (87)
- · Quote
- · UnfollowFollow (8)
Comments:
Jan '11
Re: UC Davis Pepper Spray Incident: What Really Happened
There are a couple things I take away from this expanded video:
1) When the protestors chant for the arrested students to be released, everyone knows they all will be released - they may spend a night in jail, but they will not be held indefinitely. It seems that many protestors entertain a fantasy that this is a protest occurring under a totalitarian regime.
2) They will not be prosecuted for the "substance" of their opinions - though they may be charged with objective laws about assembly. This is not a light point - in many (perhaps most) other countries, the substance of their message could be a reason for arrest/detainment.
3) How creepy is the un-think group chanting?
QuickerBrownFox
Still not seeing how the actions of some students justify pepper spraying others, especially since it happened after-the-fact.
I would have preferred it if they had not used pepper spray, because it gave the protestors exactly what they wanted. But after witnessing the repeated requests and warnings, I fail to see what other choice the police had. It did not appear to be after-the-fact - it was because the protestors were blocking their exit.
Oct '11
Re: UC Davis Pepper Spray Incident: What Really Happened
M. T. S.:
I would have preferred it if they had not used pepper spray, because it gave the protestors exactly what they wanted. But after witnessing the repeated requests and warnings, I fail to see what other choice the police had. It did not appear to be after-the-fact - it was because the protestors were blocking their exit.
I'm with you on the martyrdom; with all the things the police did right during these protests, it's a shame that this is getting so much attention. I was talking about the demands being after-the-fact. That still doesn't mean you spray one group of students because others are posing a threat (though I don't think they were).
Like I said, I don't think anyone should get punished for this, unless we find that the spraying was done as punishment. I don't like critiquing what the police do, since much is situation dependent and they encounter potentially career ending situations every day, but we need to keep accountability. I would rather over-report and under-punish than the other way around.
Edited on December 6, 2011 at 1:00amOct '10
Re: UC Davis Pepper Spray Incident: What Really Happened
Good complete video of events. The protesters were provided fair and advance warnings. They also knew and were voluntarily complicit in the outcome.
No one has bothered to note that in the past, to break up an event and arrest unlawfull protesters required a lot of physical force and a lot more police. Not that that was a good but pepper spray saves on the broken bone thing.
To add icing on the cake, the OWS DC folks that were arrested stated they may need to seek therapy for the experience they suffered.
As for any of these folk in the OWS that want to compare their works to that of the Civil Rights movement. Well, go watch some documentaries on folks that had real commitment to a goal.
The current OWS folk appear to think they can make a great noise and get ice cream cones on the way to jail and room service upon arrival.
Hailing from a period in the distant past, a goodly number of perps always appeared to have fallen down a flight of stairs, twice, before ever entering a patrol car.
Things are better today.
Edited on December 6, 2011 at 1:38amNov '10
Re: UC Davis Pepper Spray Incident: What Really Happened
It doesn't matter whether you're fighting for your freedom against an oppressive totalitarian regime or fighting to squeeze more money from a well-intentioned socialist regime. Stand up to the police and you're gonna get pepper sprayed or worse. These kids wanted to be martyrs, without all the unpleasant bits where you have to suffer for your cause. It's an insult to nonviolent resistance movements everywhere.
May '10
Re: UC Davis Pepper Spray Incident: What Really Happened
bereket kelile
I'm impressed.
Oh, Bereket. I don't want to burst your bubble, but you haven't seen me tap dance. See, back in 2007 I made a New Year's Resolution to take tap dance since I don't even have 2 left feet, they're more like bear claws. I even bought shoes to motivate me to sign up for a class. Alas, 3 little kids and a whole lot of other things got in the way. Well... actually another dance form got in the way - pole dancing. I know. I know (gotta say I LOVE my shoes for that class). Anyway, it's 2011, and I'm finally completing my 2007 New Year's Resolution.
Oct '10
Re: UC Davis Pepper Spray Incident: What Really Happened
FeliciaB
bereket kelile
I'm impressed.
Oh, Bereket. I don't want to burst your bubble, but you haven't seen me tap dance. See, back in 2007 I made a New Year's Resolution to take tap dance since I don't even have 2 left feet, they're more like bear claws. I even bought shoes to motivate me to sign up for a class. Alas, 3 little kids and a whole lot of other things got in the way. Well... actually another dance form got in the way - pole dancing. I know. I know (gotta say I LOVE my shoes for that class). Anyway, it's 2011, and I'm finally completing my 2007 New Year's Resolution. · Dec 5 at 4:27pm
Tried Clogging ?
Oct '11
Re: UC Davis Pepper Spray Incident: What Really Happened
No, you don't have to be subjected to excessive force in order to participate in nonviolent resistance. Do you really think so little of the police that protesters should expect them to overreact? If you protest in violation of the law you should expect to get arrested. You shouldn't be shocked to see excessive force, but it isn't a rite of passage and you certainly don't lose your ability to object.
Apr '11
Re: UC Davis Pepper Spray Incident: What Really Happened
QuickerBrownFox
No, you don't have to be subjected to excessive force in order to participate in nonviolent resistance. Do you really think so little of the police that protesters should expect them to overreact? If you protest in violation of the law you should expect to get arrested. You shouldn't be shocked to see excessive force, but it isn't a rite of passage and you certainly don't lose your ability to object. · Dec 5 at 4:59pm
a) The police didn't over-react. Watch the video again; what the police did was strictly necessary for the safety of both police and protestors.
b) The protesters were trying to get pepper-sprayed. You do lose your right to object when you goad the police into using force.
Oct '11
Re: UC Davis Pepper Spray Incident: What Really Happened
This is exactly why we need protections: there are some people who view the means of arrest as a way of doling out punish. Let's beat their ideology out of them, eh DocJay?
DocJay:
Why is it illegal for me to forcefully remove money from their pockets yet them voting in a socialist who would remove my money at gunpoint any different. The answer is not complicated as they are both theft.
Oh, I don't know, because one is coercion and the other is politics?
Oct '11
Re: UC Davis Pepper Spray Incident: What Really Happened
Jonathan Cast
a) The police didn't over-react. Watch the video again; what the police did was strictly necessary for the safety of both police and protestors.
b) The protesters were trying to get pepper-sprayed. You do lose your right to object when you goad the police into using force.
a) Watched it again. What am I supposed to be seeing that should convince me that pepper-spraying protesters is reasonable under the circumstances for the police and the protesters' safety? How does warning that force will be used mean they can pepper spray them?
b) Nope. It certainly looks bad on the part of the protesters, but it doesn't mean you have to smile and take whatever's dished out.
I hope no-one's taking my objections to mean I support the protesters, because I most certainly don't. I don't even find the police actions all that wrong, at least not to the point of punishment. You can even find the actions wrong but within their discretion. What I find disturbing are the rationalizations for the use of force; they aren't true protesters, they deserved it. That isn't right.
May '11
Re: UC Davis Pepper Spray Incident: What Really Happened
The failure occurred when the cities didn't enforce the laws against sleeping overnight in the parks. The second failure occurred when the police allowed themselves to get outflanked. The third failure occurred when the police ignored the local laws forbidding the use of mace. The fourth failure occurred when the police failed to take into account the media image they were sure to create. Their best choice of action was to do nothing and wait the protesters out until a break in the ring could be found. The media image would have worked in their favor. This whole thing was so stupid you have to wonder if the very liberal/loonie city of Davis intended this result.
May '10
Re: UC Davis Pepper Spray Incident: What Really Happened
Tasing them could have been pretty cool. My son-in-law the cop tells me that in training they have a group of rookies sit on the floor with linked arms and that the taser chrge just runs right down the line.
On a more serious note, having worked at UC Davis, I know the police force there to be highly trained and dedicated. The campus community numbers well over 40,000 students and staff; a small city in its own right. And the campus cops would be a credit to any jurisdiction.
Nonetheless, I have no doubt that the poltroons who run the campus will find a scapegoat in blue and hand him out to dry. But it was good to get a more complete picture....even if it was a predictable on.
Apr '11
Re: UC Davis Pepper Spray Incident: What Really Happened
The point of Claire's post was that the courts with jurisdiction ruled that using pepper spray like this is not only excessive but beyond the scope of good faith immunity.
That police were wrong to spray the protesters, because it was against the law.
Oct '10
Re: UC Davis Pepper Spray Incident: What Really Happened
Time pose a question of the good people of Ricochet. If the time arose for a Call to Arms as it were. What course and choices would be taken in contrast ?
Just a query.
Oct '11
Re: UC Davis Pepper Spray Incident: What Really Happened
You know, we hashed a lot of this out in the initial thread here, so I'll stop thread hogging like I tend to do. Wylie Coyote made some nice points about actual practice that I can't really argue with, and hopefully the protesters realize how bad they look and how little actions like this help their cause, at least in hindsight.
Tom Lindholtz:
Nonetheless, I have no doubt that the poltroons who run the campus will find a scapegoat in blue and hand him out to dry.
This troubles me a lot too. I've only sent in a complaint about an officer once, and it was handled professionally and seriously, to the point where I apologized for my rudeness in the process. I would much prefer frequently acknowledged and minimally disciplined complaints over sporadic, harsh, and knee-jerk reactions.
Jun '10
Re: UC Davis Pepper Spray Incident: What Really Happened
wilber forge: Time pose a question of the good people of Ricochet. If the time arose for a Call to Arms as it were. What course and choices would be taken in contrast ?
Just a query. · Dec 5 at 5:47pm
I've been thinking the same thing. Are we boxing ourselves in if things go too far against our interests? Could be worth a post all its own.
Jul '11
Re: UC Davis Pepper Spray Incident: What Really Happened
QuickerBrownFox
I never said I wanted to arrest them, just mace them. Their ideology is to despise hard work and success so much that taking its rewards and handing that to those who choose to sit with outstretched hands seems reasonable. I have no illusions that macing them would change their ideology. But I certainly think people need to learn to obey the police and being sprayed helps produce a higher state of consciousness.
Here's a nice Bastiat quote regarding taxation which seems like theft light to me.
"Now, legal plunder can be committed in an infinite number of ways. Thus we have an infinite number of plans for organizing it: tariffs, protection, benefits, subsidies, encouragements, progressive taxation, public schools, guaranteed jobs, guaranteed profits, minimum wages, a right to relief, a right to the tools of labor, free credit, and so on, and so on. All these plans as a whole—with their common aim of legal plunder—constitute socialism."
Jul '11
Re: UC Davis Pepper Spray Incident: What Really Happened
Dave Molinari
wilber forge: Time pose a question of the good people of Ricochet. If the time arose for a Call to Arms as it were. What course and choices would be taken in contrast ?
Just a query. · Dec 5 at 5:47pm
I've been thinking the same thing. Are we boxing ourselves in if things go too far against our interests? Could be worth a post all its own. · Dec 5 at 6:11pm
Is going Galt a Call to Arms?
Dec '10
Re: UC Davis Pepper Spray Incident: What Really Happened
QuickerBrownFox
I hope no-one's taking my objections to mean I support the protesters, because I most certainly don't. I don't even find the police actions all that wrong, at least not to the point of punishment. You can even find the actions wrong but within their discretion. What I find disturbing are the rationalizations for the use of force; they aren't true protesters, they deserved it. That isn't right. · Dec 5 at 5:37pm
I really don't understand your objections. The protesters who were pepper-sprayed were preventing the police from making lawful arrests of other protesters. In another time and place, interfering in an arrest would land your sorry behind in jail! And it appears the protesters won the battle despite getting pepper-sprayed, as from what I could detect in the video, the police didn't appear to have anyone in custody when they grouped together and backed their way out of the mob.
Nov '11
Re: UC Davis Pepper Spray Incident: What Really Happened
Let me lay this out, as my best understanding of what happened, based on the video:
The police have taken some protesters under arrest. Other protesters surround the police and demand that the police release the arrested protesters. The surrounding protesters refuse to get out of the way of the police. The police warn the protesters that they will be subject to the use of force if they do not disperse.
How are the police supposed to get out of this situation without using force? If they did not already have people in custody, then they could simply step over the row of sitting protesters. How are they supposed to get the already arrested protesters away, without using force? What should they have done instead?