Turkey's Orgy of Arrests Continues, World Pretty Much Indifferent
The Western commentariat is preoccupied, indifferent, or just confused by all those Turkish names. Here's something of a roundup.
"Meanwhile, it is unclear what exactly is going on — a battle between elements of the state? Between the police or judicial system and MIT? Between the AKP and the ‘deep state’? Between MIT and the military? The plot is so thick that it’s become impenetrable. (To me, at least.) Turkish Industry and Business Association (TÜSİAD) Chairwoman Ümit Boyner said yesterday, 'We are moving away from the rule of law day by day. We regular people are watching the power struggle within the Turkish state with horror and an increased sense of insecurity.'
Watching prosecutors and the judiciary at work in Turkey is a bit like watching an out-of-control truck rampaging down the highway in the wrong lane. You can’t figure out why it’s happening, where it’s going, or how to stop it. You want to close your eyes, but you can’t. You know what’s coming, just not when, where, how, or who the crash will take down with it."
And I'm asking myself, why should anyone in the West care? I'm tired of prefacing my comments with, "This matters to you because ... " In truth, it doesn't, much. There's nothing you can do and there's no reason for an ordinary American to care all that much about this.
What bothers me intensely, though, is a feeling of complete intellectual disgust. Everyone's just completely baffled by this? It's all impenetrable, inscrutable and Oriental? It's neither fish nor fowl, East nor West, Turkey's so complicated, I give up? Does that remind anyone just a bit of those Barbie dolls that were programmed to say, "Math is so hard?"
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Comments:
May '10
Re: Turkey's Orgy of Arrests Continues, World Pretty Much Indifferent
It's not impenetrable. From someone who has never been there and doesn't follow it closely, it looks like the Islamist version of a Chavez-style takeover, where you use democratic methods to gain power, then gradually subvert and weaken the checks and balances in the democratic institutions, from inside.
I may be oversimplifying-- tell me if I'm wrong.
Sep '11
Re: Turkey's Orgy of Arrests Continues, World Pretty Much Indifferent
The West would be very foolish not to care. Turkey is strategically and politically important, and always has been (the sick man of Europe and all that). Thousands of British and ANZAC troops died at Gallipoli because Allied diplomacy fouled up and Turkey joined the wrong side. Turkey is also chronically misunderstood. There was a period (now ended, I'm sure) when many in Europe believed we could influence Turkey through the offer of EU membership, but the negotiators never understood who or what they were dealing with. I think it's scary, and not just for the Turks themselves. Please keep on telling us about it.
Sep '10
Re: Turkey's Orgy of Arrests Continues, World Pretty Much Indifferent
I know you're loathe to provide analysis without data, the hard stuff, but Claire what does your gut tell you is going on? Is all this strangeness a reaction to the situation in Syria? The so-called Arab Spring? Iran acting up and being watched with steely eyes by Israel? Internal issues that have nothing to do with any of that? All of the above? None? Do you feel personally intimidated by what's going on? (Unless of course you'd rather not say: I really have no idea of the implications of what I'm asking.)
Oct '10
Re: Turkey's Orgy of Arrests Continues, World Pretty Much Indifferent
Claire:
You write for a mostly American audience. At the moment, most of us conservatives have a preoccupation with the survival of the Constitutional Republic of America. We are not ignorant of the dangers Gaby outlined, but at this time in our history events in Turkey, while important, pale in significance to the stakes here at home.
Yes, we have a growing non-American audience. Canada, Australia and Europe, even some in Japan, are also well represented and not to be ignored.
But I contend that even for those in other parts of the world, the battleground for their future is here in America.
Mar '11
Re: Turkey's Orgy of Arrests Continues, World Pretty Much Indifferent
Count me among those who solidly does not care, and who wishes Claire would stop beating the drum.
The world is full of bad people, and bad leaders who hurt their own people. The countries that concern me are those who war on their neighbors - especially if there is a nuclear risk.
But countries that oppress their own citizens? No shortage there. I don't think Turkey is special in this respect.
In all cases, we should be promoting our principles of human rights and freedom and democracy. But we cannot force those principles on anyone, short of invasion. And beyond that? We must prioritize our national interests. That Turkey kidnaps and kills citizens is basically irrelevant to our national interests.
Claire should come to her senses, and flee the country.
Edited on February 15, 2012 at 2:59pmAug '10
Re: Turkey's Orgy of Arrests Continues, World Pretty Much Indifferent
I'll submit the western commentariat is more concerned with the impending implosion of the Euro and the economic fallout waiting in the wings to be much concerned with the anti-democratization of Turkey. Chalk it up to their Aikophobia - they like it when countries go anti-democratic (witness Venezuela, the saber rattling over the Falklands, the deceptively misnamed 'Arab Spring', the kid gloves they use when they discuss Aqua velva Jihad - I mean Ahmadinejad).
The people who should care, the Turks themselves, seem much too preoccupied with their anti-western conspiracy theories to do anything about it themselves- if they can't be bothered to take an interest in their own affairs, I am surely not going to worry about it.
I am much more concerned with the fall-out of the Obama administration's directive to the Pentagon to look at the implications of a 300 warhead nuclear force.
Turkey - meh
Aug '10
Re: Turkey's Orgy of Arrests Continues, World Pretty Much Indifferent
iWc:
Claire should come to her senses, and flee the country. · 1 minute ago
Edited 0 minutes ago
Agreed.
Claire, I'll simply be direct. When I read one of these pieces, I am reminded of my own childhood - lines from my mother like (I know he's a good man in there somewhere; we can't afford to be on our own; it isn't too bad when he works 3-11, right? It won't be for much longer, you'll go to college in a few years.)
My only regret is I didn't contact social services on my own behalf.
Re: Turkey's Orgy of Arrests Continues, World Pretty Much Indifferent
I'd say start here. It will take about an hour to read, and then you'll have a pretty decent idea what's going on--or at least where to start thinking about it.
Jun '10
Re: Turkey's Orgy of Arrests Continues, World Pretty Much Indifferent
Claire,
Remember, the World is going to be almost as indifferent when it's YOU, an American citizen, that's unfairly imprisoned in Turkey. America has a lot of things on its plate. I'm probably not telling you anything you don't already know. They (the Obama Administration) are not going to break any speed records getting you out if you suddenly become Turkey's Unlucky Journalist of the Month.
Edited on February 15, 2012 at 3:43pmAug '10
Re: Turkey's Orgy of Arrests Continues, World Pretty Much Indifferent
Do Turks care about Turkey? I never thought to ask them.
I am now recalling what Turks thought to ask me: for transport to the U.S., for money ($50 was the last request), what U.S. money looks like (I showed a family on a train a $1 bill), whether my family was dead, whether I was an artist (how else could I have the freedom to travel alone?), whether I'd had to do military service (the guys were in awe that I hadn't, but maybe because I didn't know the word for "obligatory" and kept saying it hadn't been "necessary," as if some corrupt official had genially waved me off), and for my K-Mart pocket watch ("I am old, you are young!" wailed the supplicant). To me, and maybe to Turks too, Turkey has a geography and a language but not much imagination. Does any Turk ever say The land is kind or Where will we be in 50 years?
Oct '10
Re: Turkey's Orgy of Arrests Continues, World Pretty Much Indifferent
Instugator: The people who should care, the Turks themselves, seem much too preoccupied with their anti-western conspiracy theories to do anything about it themselves- if they can't be bothered to take an interest in their own affairs, I am surely not going to worry about it.
· 44 minutes ago
While I generally agree with this sentiment, I still want to hear about it.
There's nothing I can DO about it, but I think valuable lessons can be learned by studying it.
Re: Turkey's Orgy of Arrests Continues, World Pretty Much Indifferent
I don't know about fleeing for the safety of the United States. I've been reading Ricochet lately, and you guys make it sound terrifying--a full-on assault on religious liberty?
Just curious: Why is it that no one responds to Judith's posts by saying, "Get the hell out of there, you fool?"
And do you think America would be well-served by a pundit class that basically refuses to leave American soil? Because it seems to me the problem with our foreign policy is precisely that the people devising it have never set foot in the places they're talking about, or maybe they visited them once circa 1975.
Mar '11
Re: Turkey's Orgy of Arrests Continues, World Pretty Much Indifferent
Claire Berlinski, Ed.: I don't know about fleeing for the safety of the United States. I've been reading Ricochet lately, and you guys make it sound terrifying--a full-on assault on religious liberty?
Just curious: Why is it that no one responds to Judith's posts by saying, "Get the hell out of there, you fool?"
Claire, now you are just beng facetious. Of course the USA is a lot safer than Turkey.
And Judith actually has a reason to be in Israel. Do you have a religious or nationalistic or familial connection to Turkey that ties your fates together?
Mar '11
Re: Turkey's Orgy of Arrests Continues, World Pretty Much Indifferent
Claire Berlinski, Ed.:
And do you think America would be well-served by a pundit class that basically refuses to leave American soil?
On this we seem to agree: it would make the world a better place if stupid pundits were expelled.
But I don't think local knowledge necessarily helps make wise judgements. The State Department has plenty of local knowledge, and seems to always get it wrong.
I'd rather our foreign policy be set by a strongly nationalistic Texan who instinctively knows right from wrong, than by a bunch of perfectly informed ivy league relativists. Bush was simply better at this than Carter or Obama, and not because he knew more.
Edited on February 15, 2012 at 5:08pmJun '10
Re: Turkey's Orgy of Arrests Continues, World Pretty Much Indifferent
Claire Berlinski, Ed.:
Just curious: Why is it that no one responds to Judith's posts by saying, "Get the hell out of there, you fool?"
Judith's friends and neighbors are well-trained and well-armed. Her enemies are in more danger than she is.
Mar '11
Re: Turkey's Orgy of Arrests Continues, World Pretty Much Indifferent
etoiledunord
Judith's friends ... are well-trained and well-armed.
Of course I am both well-trained and armed to the teeth. But it won't help Claire much: I live in the US!
Apr '11
Re: Turkey's Orgy of Arrests Continues, World Pretty Much Indifferent
There was a cartoon about Turkey by Kliban. Much as I've tried, I can't locate it. The point of the cartoon, as best as I can remember was that being in Turkey was similar to being on Mars. Turkey is completely unfamiliar with nothing in common with us, and if you were so unlucky to find yourself there you would feel extremely weird.
Oct '10
Re: Turkey's Orgy of Arrests Continues, World Pretty Much Indifferent
Well, I'll try to read the Ergenekon paper, but apart from lots of messy context and 'who knows?' conclusions, how is it going to move me on from 'complete bafflement'?
I looked at many of the blogs you (Claire) very helpfully set out in an earlier post discussing Turkey and Turkish politics. To a (very, obviously) rough approximation, they were made up of human interest items (interesting precisely in proportion to how 'different' they were), descriptions of the latest round of arrests or bizarre judgments or statistics about the mistreatment of women, and the occasional article decrying how the West was getting it all wrong when a piece in a mainstream Western media came out citing the latest round of arrests or bizarre judgments or statistics about the mistreatment of women.
Obviously Turkey is complex, and things are going to be nuanced. But every person who answers a poll saying they will vote for Rick Santorum does so for a different set of reasons. At some point you have to put the detail to one side and draw some conclusions. Or stay silent.
(Thanks for the help with the precipitation, by the way.)
Jan '12
Re: Turkey's Orgy of Arrests Continues, World Pretty Much Indifferent
Is this why the US want's the EU to admit Turkey? Why would the US want Turkey within the EU? Are the answers the same?
Re: Turkey's Orgy of Arrests Continues, World Pretty Much Indifferent
Like I said, I'm not saying anyone should really care. I don't think it will make much difference if Ricochet readers care or don't care. It won't affect US policy, and that in turn won't affect Turkey all that much.
But just humor me, okay? Read the paper I suggested above, which won't tell you everything you need to know about Turkey, but which will make this discussion more interesting for me. I know that's selfish, but it's honest--I want to have a conversation about Turkey with a handful of people who are willing to put a few hours of thought into the subject, first.
I also maintain that it would be good for you. You'll learn something new about Cold War history and this region. You'll be slightly better proofed against a lot of things casually said in the media about Turkey.
And it would also be fair. This is a longstanding NATO ally and friend of the United States. It deserves some deeper thought than it gets in the US mainstream media.