Turkey and Israel
I haven't written anything about this yet because the way it's being covered--here, in the US, in Israel--is driving me bananas. Something about this latest contretemps is bringing out the conspiracy theorist in me: Did someone do something to all the opinion writers to knock fifty points off their IQs overnight? What just sets my teeth on edge is when some twerp columnist who I'm sure has never set foot in Gaza and certainly hasn't been to Turkey confidently, blithely advises his readers that if the Israelis would just stop being so stubborn and give back the Occupied Territories, why, the problem would be solved! And people believe it. I just don't know where to start with that.
But the right is just as dumb. What is Caroline Gllick going on about? She doesn't really believe that Turkey is going to turn into Iran. If so, she's not qualified to do her job. So what's she trying to do? Influence Americans who think she's a trusted authority?
Everyone is winding themselves into hysterics about this, and meanwhile everyone has just sort of forgotten that Turks and Kurds are coming home in body bags here. And Syria? Everyone's forgotten. Except the Syrians who are getting killed.
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Mar '11
Re: Turkey and Israel
Thanks, Claire; I've been reading Caroline Glick's columns on Townhall for several years and have considered her to be a pretty straightforward commentator. Now whom do I read to get an accurate picture of what's going on in Israel? Or are you saying she's ventured too far afield when talking about Turkey?
I just re-read her September 5 piece in the Jerusalem Post. Say what you will, she's pretty well wired into what's going on there. I'm inclined to believe her reporting, and can't fault the path of her logic.
Edited on September 6, 2011 at 9:55pmJun '10
Re: Turkey and Israel
The fear is, once nations like Turkey start moving in that direction--the Hitler direction--they don't automatically stop moving that way. Momentum takes over. Easier to stop them early on. No?
Sep '10
Re: Turkey and Israel
I read the title of this post an the first thing I thought was, "Turkey is kosher!"
:-)
Jan '11
Re: Turkey and Israel
An Israeli friend from a prominent politically active family spent a week with us last May, and we talked about current events, attitudes, and future prospects. He was firmly positive that Israel has the will and the resources to counter even a nuclear Iran - if it ever gets to that stage. And he is solidly on the Israeli left. I suppose that our distance from day-to-day events gives us here a considerably different perspective from those on the ground, living it in real time. I'm not a journalist with a focus on Israeli political circumstances, so I recognize that my thoughts on the subject are comparatively uninformed. I do read about the goings on there, but the opinions are so diverse and so positively given, that it's hard for me to form a reliable understanding. The issues and political relationships, domestic and foreign, appear to be too complex for casual assumptions; perhaps even for serious observers.
Edited on September 6, 2011 at 6:20pmMay '10
Re: Turkey and Israel
The meme of "Israel is an illegal occupier" has been the mantra in US colleges and universities for enough years that those who heard it in their classrooms are now teaching others. And there is no question that they believe Israelis practice their own version of apartheid now.
Good luck getting that one out of the public consciousness.
Aug '11
Re: Turkey and Israel
Claire, what IS Turkey's motivation in pulling the ambassadors?
As you say, there is a great deal of speculation, but what is going on in the minds of the Turkish leaders in your relatively informed opinion?
Mar '11
Re: Turkey and Israel
I appreciate that Claire is frustrated that virtually nobody who writes on Turkey actually understands the country.
But does it really matter? The fact that Turkey was an ally, and now increasingly backs those who are trying to destroy Israel looks pretty clear, whatever one's IQ.
I can see the argument that the most Turkey will ever do is use rhetoric, and it would never actually become a kinetic threat. But at some point, vicious rhetoric does push one towards putting one's money where the mouth has been going.
Would Claire be willing to bet that Turkey would not, in the next 5 years, actively provide support to those fighting a war against Israel? After all, is it such a leap from the flotilla business?
Oct '10
Re: Turkey and Israel
I don't know enough about the situation to leave a coherent and thoughtful comment.
However, I must say that I'm adding "some twerp columnist" to my lexicon.
Thanks, Claire!
Dec '10
Re: Turkey and Israel
Gee, don't both of those developments play into Turkey's interests? If you want to conduct military strikes into another country (Iraq, say), you might want to divert the world's attention in another direction. And if you have made big noises about intervening in the civil war brewing in a neighboring country (for example, Syria), you again might want to have some other kerfuffle to mask the fact that you've decided not to act to protect those neighboring civilians (or antagonize the regional patron of their oppressor) after all.
It's as if Davutoglu is playing the role of Rufus T. Firefly, looking for a pretext to create a huge diplomatic blow-up with Israel rather than deal with the issue on a reasonable and appropriately calm level.
Edited on September 6, 2011 at 8:54pmDec '10
Re: Turkey and Israel
Claire, are you by chance related to David Berlinski?
Nov '10
Re: Turkey and Israel
Caroline Glick is human and it is human nature to feel wrath at former friends after they have betrayed you. Turkey was once a friend of Israel but is now siding with those who want to destroy her. If you live near hundred of thousands of people who want you dead these sorts of things can affect you. What would you expect of Caroline Glick?
Besides, she’s right.
Jul '10
Re: Turkey and Israel
Commentators are trying to meet a deadline and draw mindshare. I don't see a parallel between Erdogan and Hitler, but my question is, is the saber rattling over these flotillas, which is really saber rattling over militarizing Gaza and arming terrorist Hama, is designed to curry favor with Iran or to compete with Iran in this grand, romantic, let's remake the caliphate dance of the Islamists.
And just how populist is the kill the jews, Islamic imperialism angle with the Turks? Decades of secularist conditioning not withstanding.
Sep '11
Re: Turkey and Israel
OK Claire, so what is going on?
Why is Erdogan fomenting an argument over Gaza? Why does he care? Why is he threatening further international incidents? Do you disagree with David Pryce-Jones' view?
Edited on September 6, 2011 at 11:24pmDec '10
Re: Turkey and Israel
Do tell, Claire. Why, precisely, should the world care more about Turkey's battle with the Kurd nationalists, than the treatment of foreigners in a Turkish airport?
What is with the singling out of Glick, whom I see roundley denounced in Israelly right-wing blogs?
I get that you are experiencing a frustration, but I read all heat and no light.
I am quite sure that Turkey will devolve into an Iranian satellite, which is a separate issue. Where is your assurance that you are just fine and dandy, right where you are, in a country that you find attractive, in part, it seems, because it can be baffling?
I don't find Turkey baffling, at all. I observe it to be just another country with a repressive government and a vast proportion of unenlightened citizens that are a favorite target for radicalization, plus a huge base for insurrgency in the highlands that spans national borders into Iraq and Iran.
I am sure I am being simplistic, but I believe in geopolitical triage. We have abandoned our ally, Columbia, to the leftists in the U.S., for more than 5 years; to me, that is more of a priority.
Dec '10
Re: Turkey and Israel
I doubt very much that Turkey wishes to become a satellite of Iran. I believe that Erdogan wants the opposite: he wanbnts Turkey to be one of the Great Powers of the Middle East, if not greater than Iran, then at least co-equal to it.
But I note that once Iran announced that it would consider any attack on Syrian soil as an attack on Iran and would retaliate as appropriate, Turkey seemed to lose its bravado and stopped making threats against Assad's regime. [Claire: Am I wrong about that? Has Turkey stood steadfast against Iran's threats?]
As for the Kurds: does the fact that there's a Communist terrorist organization committing atrocities in the name of Kurdish independence mean that Kurdish independence is not in fact a legitimate aspiration of the Kurdish people?
Re: Turkey and Israel
You're all right that I cannot complain that no one grasps how complicated this is without making an effort to explain why it's so complicated or how I view it. Unfortunately, the main contours of what's going on right now are not even remotely what the media's focusing on. By giving so much attention to the Turkish-Israeli feud--which is just that, a feud playing out for an obedient media that never seems to ask itself, "Is this really the story?"--they're giving it a dynamic of its own while failing in a major responsibility to draw attention to what's happening in Cyprus, Greece, Iraq, Syria, Iran, the southeast of Turkey, the Leviathan gas field and the missile shield agreement. It's scarcely reported that Israel's military attaches have not been withdrawn. There is no curiosity about the last tranche of the Wikileaks dump, and no one seems to have any memory of other, fairly recent diplomatic dustups between Israel and Turkey.
I'll put together a reading list later today for people who want to take a guess at what's going on, though the people who know aren't talking.
Feb '11
Re: Turkey and Israel
Speaking of wikileaks, Claire, and not irrelevant to the present subject....
From 05ANKARA1447, March 14, 2005
"Mein Kampf" Selling Fast in Turkey: Nazi dictator Adolf Hitler's “Mein Kampf” is selling so fast in Turkey that it has entered the bestseller lists, Turkish papers reported over the weekend. “Mein Kampf” has become a ‘handbook’ for supporters of the extreme nationalist Nationalist Action Party (MHP) and the Youth Party (GP), and is being widely read by students in police academies and schools in Turkey, according to a report in Sunday's “Radikal” supplement. “Radikal” argues that the real reason for the growing interest in the book is the rise of anti-Semitism in Turkey. “The Protocols of Zion,” a fraudulent document an a main source of inspiration for “Mein Kampf,” has been printed more than 100 times in Turkey between since 1943, the paper notes. “Mein Kampf's” fast sales in Turkey, a country where reading levels are not very high.... 13 publishers have printed the book in Turkish. In January, a Turkish publisher sold 20,000 copies of “Mein Kampf” for 5.90 New Turkish Lira (less than 5 USD) each.
May '10
Re: Turkey and Israel
Its complicated - there.
Oct '10
Re: Turkey and Israel
Claire, I am not an expert on Turkey as you are, but I see Prime Minister Erdoğan taking many steps over the last few years that I interpret as moving Turkey away from what has been historically a more pro-Western Turkish foreign policy. Because Turkey is a member of NATO, this seems to have significant implications for America’s interests in the Middle East. It is unclear to me where he wants to take Turkey and why he wants to do it. Daniel Pipes asked the question over two years ago as to whether Turkey should remain a member of NATO. What do you make of this? Isn’t the expulsion of Israel’s ambassador simply another step along the road to a Turkey that is more anti-West?
May '10
Re: Turkey and Israel
I feel the same way when people get the Jonas Brothers all mixed up. Seriously!?!