Turkey and Israel - a Non-Academic, Personal Perspective (from an Israeli)
I have to say I am somewhat guilty of the crime of hysterical overreaction to the crisis in relations between Israel and Turkey. But I've said it before and I'll say it again: when we feel betrayed by someone with whom we have had a good relationship, our emotional reaction is of course much stronger. I've never been hated more than by a girl I was engaged to and then broke off the engagement.....
Turkey and Israel were once great allies, even good friends. Istanbul seems to have that same mix of East and West that Israel has. Israelis felt comfortable in Turkey and visited there in huge numbers. It was BY FAR the most popular tourist destination. That might have something to do with the fact that it was also the cheapest, but I think it also had something to do with the fact that Israelis felt welcome there. I have done a lot of business in Turkey over the last few years as an Israeli, and I always had a nice warm and fuzzy feeling that I was a Jewish Israeli who felt extremely at home and welcome in a Muslim country. In all the times I was in Turkey, I never once felt any hint of animosity towards me because I was Israeli. I cannot say the same about my trips to Egypt, or - and here is a small irony - even Greece.
In fact, if you would have asked me 2 years ago, I always told you that the Turks seem almost completely devoid of that natural tendency to Anti-Semitism, much like the Chinese and Indians. I would have told you that Greeks are by far more prone to Anti-Semitism than Turks are.
But now I am starting to get a hint of a nasty, hidden side to Turkey which suggests to me that beyond the secular, open minded urbanites in Istanbul with whom I have done business lurks a much more conservative population that is just as vulnerable to the anti-Semitism bug as anywhere else in the Arab world (and Europe for that matter).
My friends and associates in Turkey haven't changed their overall attitudes toward Israelis beyond feeling like Israel owes Turkey an apology for the Mavi Marmara affair, which I can understand. But on the other side of the Bosphorus, in the Eastern parts of Istanbul and out beyond, the population is becoming more conservative (in an Islamic sense) and is more inclined to shun Israel and to side with their Muslim brethren in the Arab world. Its beginning to feel like i was duped into thinking that Turkey may be different, when it is in fact not.
The way I see it is like this:
Mr. Erdogan is a clever politician. He seems to have an agenda which is based on raising Turkey's status in the region, and he seems to be going about it by sacrificing Turkey's relationship with Israel in favor of gaining allies in the Arab world. Israel played directly into his hand by stubbornly assaulting the Mavi Marmara and causing the deaths of 9 Turkish citizens - a move that I think was a huge tactical error. The Flotilla was an obvious provocation designed to elicit a violent response to Israel, and (as usual) our idiot leaders just can't help themselves in providing our adversaries with a body count that they can hold up to the world as proof of our national thirst for blood. (BTW, I still don't think we should apologize since I think the provocateurs are just as guilty as us).
So now Erdogan has his high horse which he can ride into every capital in the Arab world as a hero. I get it. Only history will tell if the Turks turning their back on the West was the smart move, but I do get it. BUT, what bothers me is the fact that i just don't see any Turks that see the whole event for the cynical provocation that it was. I haven't heard a single voice from Turkey that has come out and said "hey, these guys are our friends. Maybe we had something to do with this whole debacle too, maybe we owe Israel the benefit of the doubt". I think we would see that if it were Americans or Australians or even Brits that died on the Mavi Marmara. But what I see is much closer to the reaction in Cairo to the accidental deaths of several Egyptian security men a couple of weeks ago. Thats a reaction I expect from Egypt, but its not one I used to expect from Turkey.
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Comments :
Re: Turkey and Israel - a Non-Academic, Personal Perspective (from an Israeli)
I was just about to write about this--but you've started the conversation so well that instead I'll promote this.
Re: Turkey and Israel - a Non-Academic, Personal Perspective (from an Israeli)
Okay. I think the place to start here is with historic perspective. The idea that Turkey and Israel were always great friends just isn't true. I say this from the academic perspective, but that perspective is important: Start with this timeline. Consider these events. There is really nothing new under the sun.
Nov '10
Re: Turkey and Israel - a Non-Academic, Personal Perspective (from an Israeli)
Claire, if jonorose provided a personal impression of how an "everyman" Israeli perceived, for lack of a better term, social interaction with Turkey, what is your assessment for how a similarly situated Turk would have felt towards Israel in the near recent past? How would that compare to their impressions today?
Re: Turkey and Israel - a Non-Academic, Personal Perspective (from an Israeli)
You know, Okan and I did so much reporting on this after the Mavi Marmara incident--hours and hours of video footage, interviews, man-in-the-street interviews ... what's your criteria for "similarly situated?" A Turk who has visited Israel as much as jonorose has visited Turkey? Remember that most Turks never have--even if you accept the most inflated ideas about the Turkish economy, most Turks are poor. This is a fact people just can't seem to remember. Even in Istanbul, most are villagers.
Aug '11
Re: Turkey and Israel - a Non-Academic, Personal Perspective (from an Israeli)
I guess I have primarily succeeded in displaying my complete ignorance to what the average Turk is really like. My exposure has been almost entirely to sophisticated, secular, urban Turks from Istanbul. If someone was to visit Tel Aviv, and nowhere else in Israel they would get a severely warped impression of what the average Israeli were like. But I guess the same can probably be said of New York, Paris, London and probably even Tehran.
Aug '11
Re: Turkey and Israel - a Non-Academic, Personal Perspective (from an Israeli)
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
You know, Okan and I did so much reporting on this after the Mavi Marmara incident--hours and hours of video footage, interviews, man-in-the-street interviews ... · Sep 7 at 5:12am
Claire, where can I find some of this material? I would be very interested to see it.
Re: Turkey and Israel - a Non-Academic, Personal Perspective (from an Israeli)
Do you want to hear them? Or do you want to shut them out because it's more satisfying that way?
I agree that anti-Semitism is an ineradicable virus. But what do you call the attitude of a world that refuses to think any more carefully about Turkey than most people do about Israel? Turkey is about as much "like Iran" as Israel is an "apartheid state." What do you call it when people refuse to hear that?
Re: Turkey and Israel - a Non-Academic, Personal Perspective (from an Israeli)
jonorose
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
You know, Okan and I did so much reporting on this after the Mavi Marmara incident--hours and hours of video footage, interviews, man-in-the-street interviews ... · Sep 7 at 5:12am
Claire, where can I find some of this material? I would be very interested to see it. · Sep 7 at 5:23am
http://murkyinturkey.wordpress.com/2010/07/24/so-what-do-the-turkish-people-think/
http://murkyinturkey.wordpress.com/2010/06/15/a-day-at-the-ihh-the-jewish-people-are-dying-because-of-your-shrewd-questioning/
Hours and hours of interviews and footage there ... but we couldn't get financing for the project, and eventually we gave up.
Aug '11
Re: Turkey and Israel - a Non-Academic, Personal Perspective (from an Israeli)
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
Do you want to hear them? Or do you want to shut them out because it's more satisfying that way? · Sep 7 at 5:31am
No, I want to hear them. I'm happy to read those articles and it makes me feel a bit better. (and btw, either I've been lazy or the media here is at fault, but its the first time I'm hearing these voices)
But to tell you the honest truth, I think those articles are written by the very same sophisticated Istanbul people I was referring to (in fact, I have done business with Dogan and with Ciner Groups' TV divisions and I even spent quite a bit of time in various meetings with Mehmet Ali Birand who is a lovely guy).
Does this represent a good slice of the population? Because Ha'aretz (Israel's most respected broadsheet) might publish an opinion piece by Gideon Levy or Amira Hass about how Israel is in fact worse than Apartheid South Africa, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it represents opinion of a typical Israeli. It may in fact represent the feelings of less than 1% of the population.
Aug '11
Re: Turkey and Israel - a Non-Academic, Personal Perspective (from an Israeli)
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
jonorose
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
You know, Okan and I did so much reporting on this after the Mavi Marmara incident--hours and hours of video footage, interviews, man-in-the-street interviews ... · Sep 7 at 5:12am
Claire, where can I find some of this material? I would be very interested to see it. · Sep 7 at 5:23am
http://murkyinturkey.wordpress.com/2010/07/24/so-what-do-the-turkish-people-think/
http://murkyinturkey.wordpress.com/2010/06/15/a-day-at-the-ihh-the-jewish-people-are-dying-because-of-your-shrewd-questioning/
Hours and hours of interviews and footage there ... but we couldn't get financing for the project, and eventually we gave up. · Sep 7 at 5:43am
Awesome! Thanks! I'm not gonna get any work done today!!
Re: Turkey and Israel - a Non-Academic, Personal Perspective (from an Israeli)
jonorose
Does this represent a good slice of the population?
No way--zero way--to know. Israel's tiny. You can get a sense of what most Israelis think by spending three days there. Turkey is huge. Istanbul alone is much bigger than Israel. It takes longer to drive across Istanbul at rush hour than to drive across Israel (a point few seem to grasp when they blithely discuss the '49 borders).
Jun '10
Re: Turkey and Israel - a Non-Academic, Personal Perspective (from an Israeli)
The world doesn't reward calm diplomacy anymore. It rewards tyrants and psychopaths (real or pretend) who promise to behave themselves, for a price. Maybe Erdogan noticed.
Oct '10
Re: Turkey and Israel - a Non-Academic, Personal Perspective (from an Israeli)
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
I agree that anti-Semitism is an ineradicable virus. But what do you call the attitude of a world that refuses to think any more carefully about Turkey than most people do about Israel? Turkey is about as much "like Iran" as Israel is an "apartheid state." What do you call it when people refuse to hear that? · Sep 7 at 5:31am
Do many people equate Turkey to Iran? That would seem to be a stretch that anyone familiar enough with the world to have an opinion would reject.
Re: Turkey and Israel - a Non-Academic, Personal Perspective (from an Israeli)
AngloCon
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
I agree that anti-Semitism is an ineradicable virus. But what do you call the attitude of a world that refuses to think any more carefully about Turkey than most people do about Israel? Turkey is about as much "like Iran" as Israel is an "apartheid state." What do you call it when people refuse to hear that? · Sep 7 at 5:31am
Do many people equate Turkey to Iran? That would seem to be a stretch that anyone familiar enough with the world to have an opinion would reject. · Sep 7 at 6:43am
Yes, they do.
Jun '10
Re: Turkey and Israel - a Non-Academic, Personal Perspective (from an Israeli)
Jonorose,
"The Flotilla was an obvious provocation designed to elicit a violent response to Israel, and (as usual) our idiot leaders just can't help themselves in providing our adversaries with a body count that they can hold up to the world as proof of our national thirst for blood. (BTW, I still don't think we should apologize since I think the provocateurs are just as guilty as us)."
Friend, I hope your idiot leaders aren't as conflicted as you seem to be, judging by that sentence. I doubt the plan was to kill people on the boat. When your soldiers faced life threatening assault, they defended themselves. I must not be understanding your objections. Turkey under Erdogan is no friend of Israel. Surprise, surprise. Unless all your friends are trying to thrust knives in your back, a friend doesn't go out of their way to threaten and challenge you in a potentially life destroying mission. Opening the ports of Gaza to uninspected supply would be deadly for Israel. And everybody, including Erdogan, knows it.
Aug '11
Re: Turkey and Israel - a Non-Academic, Personal Perspective (from an Israeli)
cdor: I really think you are misunderstanding me. I think our soldiers acted exactly appropriately in response to the violence that awaited them on deck. I just think it was obvious to everyone that Israel was going to board that boat, and I think there must have been a smarter alternative than doing exactly what was expected of us. It was always going to end in bloodshed. They put our soldiers in danger, and they created another public relations nightmare.
Just because it can be legally, and perhaps even morally justified, doesn't mean its the smart move.
Re: Turkey and Israel - a Non-Academic, Personal Perspective (from an Israeli)
Erdogan is taking quite a bit of heat here now for it:
Re: Turkey and Israel - a Non-Academic, Personal Perspective (from an Israeli)
And I wish people would grasp this. I don't plan to call too much attention to it, but he's basically right.
Re: Turkey and Israel - a Non-Academic, Personal Perspective (from an Israeli)
Man on the street here, for what it's worth: "This is all show to distract us from the problems here." Enthusiastic assent from his friends.
Jul '10
Re: Turkey and Israel - a Non-Academic, Personal Perspective (from an Israeli)
For me, it wasn't until I read the following that my tongue stuck out, my head started swiveling, and I began speaking in tongues:
A number of Turkish foreign policy and international experts who yesterday commented on taking the case to the International Court of Justice, or ICJ, said that it was not an easy process like applying to any criminal court. It needed a tough United Nations process beforehand, where the possible U.S. backing of Israel is likely to block it. Moreover, neither Israel nor Turkey recognizes ICJ rulings.
(From Claire's Hurriyet citation here.)
The whole rant loses gravitas when Erdogan takes his complaint to a court neither he nor Israel recognize. If any one thing increases my respect for the Turks out of the whole mess, it is Hurriyet appearing at least as ticked off as I am over the Flotilla, and for many of the same reasons.