To Those Who Demand A Tougher Stance Toward the Egyptian Mob
Here's the thing.
We just spent half a trillion dollars and over 2,000 American lives trying to clear Afghanistan and prevent it from serving as a safe haven for terrorists. And it's far from clear whether we will have succeeded for any meaningful length of time.
We actually invaded Iraq at a much higher cost in both blood and treasure, and while that country has a somewhat more stable government, it seems perfectly clear that this big, expensive lesson in American resolve and strength sunk in not one bit to the average anti-American Middle Easterner.
Now, thanks to the Arab spring and whatever part we played in that, we have unstable democracies sprouting up throughout the region, and if Benghazi is any example, each one of them offers a potential safe haven to terrorists.
So we can fault the president for not showing sufficient resolve and not being tough enough, but this is not the world of Ronald Reagan where tough talk and a big stick could cow the leaders of the Soviet Union. There is no peace through strength strategy that makes any sense for this threat. Because there is simply no amount of force for which we would ever have the stomach that could effectively cow this mob.
And let's be honest with ourselves. Even if the United States had stood behind Mubarak, his government would never have lasted for any meaningful length of time -- certainly not beyond his own death. The strong man era of Middle Eastern politics is imploding, with or without our blessing, so to fault the president for being responsible for that is foolish.
Our best hope is not to mentor these countries in democracy, charm them with our cultural sensitivity, or to frighten them with our military might, but to persuade them through capitalism. The only thing that will reduce the long term security risk emanating from this part of the world is a general improvement in their standard of living so that they actually have something to lose from inviting and encouraging zealous chaos. A middle class, Middle East will not harbor terrorists or condone suicide bombings for fear of discouraging Trader Joe's or IKEA from coming to town.
So I would like to hear someone speak of that reality in cogent tones.
Until then, for all our indignation over lines in airports, I fear that large American cities will increasingly have to resemble Tel Aviv.
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Comments:
Nov '11
Re: To Those Who Demand A Tougher Stance Toward the Egyptian Mob
Trace Urdan
Astonishing:
. . alternative to constructive engagement:
ConstructiveDisengagement.
Cut all interaction with Muslim regimes. . . .
Internal reform . . . will dawn . . . only after muslims have been left alone so long that they have no choice but to admit they have no one to blame for their misery except themselves.
Do you think this approach could actually be sold to voters? And how do you maintain enough intelligence to anticipate threats and respond to threats . . . ?
Stop subsidizing tyrants? Stop getting our boys killed in countries whose people hate us? Stop appeasing theocrats?
Easy sell!
Realisitically, step one is cut dependence on Arab oil.
Intel? Yes, we must beef up.
This is not a "tomorrow" policy, although we could begin the disengagement process tomorrow. This policy would take time to implement, but we should start now.
If/when a muslim country demonstrates itself to be civilized, we re-engage, and of course, we need not disengage with every muslim country today.
The "Romney Doctrine" should be: Get civilized quick, or we cut you loose. And if you burn us, we vaporize your leadership.
Nationbuilding was a nice idea, actually a good idea, but we didn't have the stomach for it. Constructive disengagement is PlanB.
May '10
Re: To Those Who Demand A Tougher Stance Toward the Egyptian Mob
This popped up on Facebook and I had to share:
Jun '12
Re: To Those Who Demand A Tougher Stance Toward the Egyptian Mob
And just whose statements in this thread do you think that picture represents?
Apr '11
Re: To Those Who Demand A Tougher Stance Toward the Egyptian Mob
sawatdeeka
What would happen if we just folded all operations out there, withdrew any of our citizenry from the Middle East, and stayed home? 8 hours ago
Edited 8 hours ago
In 20-30 years, we would be invaded by the Emirate of Great Britain. Islam already nearly conquered Europe 1000 years ago when they had no oil, and no way does Europe have the capability to resist them now. And once they conquer Europe, they will have the (looted) resources to at least force us into battle.
May '10
Re: To Those Who Demand A Tougher Stance Toward the Egyptian Mob
No one's at all. It was posted by a conservative friend who likes to stir things up on Facebook and shares your generally bleak view of the prospects for liberal reform in the Islamic world. But it was posted in jest -- which is the spirit in which I am posting it here. I am neither advocating this as a course of action or suggesting that any one of us is.
ConservativeWanderer
And just whose statements in this thread do you think that picture represents? · 0 minutes ago
Jun '12
Re: To Those Who Demand A Tougher Stance Toward the Egyptian Mob
Trace Urdan: No one's at all. It was posted by a conservative friend who likes to stir things up on Facebook and shares your generally bleak view of the prospects for liberal reform in the Islamic world. But it was posted in jest -- which is the spirit in which I am posting it here. I am neither advocating this as a course of action or suggesting that any one of us is.
ConservativeWanderer
And just whose statements in this thread do you think that picture represents? · 0 minutes ago
0 minutes ago
Okay, as long as that's understood.
Pardon my worry, but already we've had an issue with statements of one person being attributed to others of similar mindset, and a very wise man once said, "Trust, but verify."
May '10
Re: To Those Who Demand A Tougher Stance Toward the Egyptian Mob
ConservativeWanderer
Trace Urdan: No one's at all. It was posted by a conservative friend who likes to stir things up on Facebook and shares your generally bleak view of the prospects for liberal reform in the Islamic world. But it was posted in jest -- which is the spirit in which I am posting it here. I am neither advocating this as a course of action or suggesting that any one of us is.
ConservativeWanderer
And just whose statements in this thread do you think that picture represents? · 0 minutes ago
0 minutes ago
Okay, as long as that's understood.
Pardon my worry, but already we've had an issue with statements of one person being attributed to others of similar mindset, and a very wise man once said, "Trust, but verify." · 5 minutes ago
Tough crowd.
Apr '12
Re: To Those Who Demand A Tougher Stance Toward the Egyptian Mob
dash: Oh swell, now I've got to be serious in the comments. ...
The notion of unemployed, malcontent youths in Cairo, Tunis or Benghazi saying to themselves, Gee, maybe I could lose the Kalashnikov, get a job flipping halal burgers, save up some cash and buy a few shares of National Oil, then sit back and watch the dividends roll in, is so absurd, even I can't imagine it.
What I can imagine, though is taking out the leadership behind the pawn-like, rioting masses, who would then disperse so quickly, they'd be gone before the sand has settled. Sure, they'd still grouse in the cafés, and dream of rising up again to humiliate the West, but with chronically dead leaders, their rage would be vague and formless.
For a while. And I think that's about the best one could hope for. · 0 minutes ago
Pragmatic, realistic approach to the situation. I like it!
I know you are being serious, but your description of the change of heart of young males in the Middle East. From "... Kalashnikov ... to flipping halal burgers ... " was written so well and so amusing. :-) Too true. Laughing instead of crying.
Jun '12
Re: To Those Who Demand A Tougher Stance Toward the Egyptian Mob
Trace Urdan
Tough crowd. · 7 minutes ago
Bonus points if you know what movie that's from (that's from memory, so the quote might not be exact).
Edited on September 15, 2012 at 3:13amDec '10
Re: To Those Who Demand A Tougher Stance Toward the Egyptian Mob
Trace Urdan
...
We spent over a trillion dollars trying to make them fear us. ...
No, we did not. We spent over a trillion dollars trying to get them to like us after we "liberated" them from their strong-men. Getting them to fear us would have involved a lot more glass-making in the desert and a lot fewer casualties on our part.
I really think you have no idea who you're dealing with, Trace. The "poverty creates terrorists" meme puts you squarely in the left's camp and is an insult to the millions who live in abject poverty every day who don't storm our embassies and sodomize our ambassadors before killing them. You're thinking with a westerner's mind and projecting western values onto a completely backward culture. Romney has this right. Culture matters.
Pseudo's recommendation is a good one. So is Lee Harris' Suicide of Reason. You think we're dealing with rational actors. We're not.
My solution? First, elect a president who believes in the superiority of western Judeo-Christian culture. Then project power, in whatever way is necessary to contain this toxin. We'll be saving the Europeans again, too.
Apr '12
Re: To Those Who Demand A Tougher Stance Toward the Egyptian Mob
Trace Urdan
Tough crowd. · 6 minutes ago
Aren't they great, Trace! :-)
I gather you haven't read the Qur'an. The best translation of the Qur'an is by N.J. Dawood, published by Penguin. It is available on Amazon for $7.75. I know it is tedious reading, but it is only just over 400 pages and is well-worth the effort. It makes it clear why the Jihad is still so much part of Islam.
Two quotes from the Qur'an:
"Believers, obey Allah and the Apostle when he calls you ... " Sura 8:18
"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and Allah's religion shall reign supreme." Sura 8:40
As you read, remember that Muslims have to believe that this is the direct word from Allah to Muhammad his Apostle. It hasn't to be placed in its historical perspective, as we do with the Hebrew Bible, but has to be taken literally to be applied today.
I re-read it recently letting myself look at it through the eyes of a believer, and suffered from nightmares, waking up sweating. Mounted Muslim warriors were bearing down on me with their swords. Try it!
Jun '12
Re: To Those Who Demand A Tougher Stance Toward the Egyptian Mob
As noted above, the absence of the rule of law will make that virtually impossible. Also as noted, the fact that many of the most extreme jihadis have hailed from affluent and western educated Muslims. Both of those facts cut sharply against the suggested solution. I have this very bad gut feeling that we are entering an era where virtually everyplace in the world will look to varying degrees like Bosnia-Herzegovina in the early 90s....
Edited on September 16, 2012 at 2:24amOct '10
Re: To Those Who Demand A Tougher Stance Toward the Egyptian Mob
Islam delenda est.
@Trace Urdan
The solution proposed in the above poster is, metaphorically, the actual solution. W's fantasy about democracy is just that, a fantasy. Either Islam will die and democracy will prevail, or the opposite will happen. My money is, sadly, on Islam.
I know I'm late to the party, but the picture you posted of Dubai is NOT a product of Islam. It is a product of the hypocrisy of the rulers of that region. The UAE was formed in the '70s as the Disneyland of the rich oil sheiks. You can hardly make it to your hotel room without being hit on by a prostitute. It is hated by the Islamists, and will be one of the places they destroy once they have the power.
Islam can only be capitalist if it is no longer Islam. And the fact that Muslims, like anyone else, do business, is easily mistaken for capitalism. But, it is a family enterprise aimed at enriching the family, not inviting of the objective business climate. Do not expect Islam to change. It cannot change.
Jul '11
Re: To Those Who Demand A Tougher Stance Toward the Egyptian Mob
I was gone all day and missed mixing it up here. So many great points. I for one, don't want my cities looking like Tel Aviv, I don't trust my government to police us in a civil fashion at all. Neither do I want violence toward innocent Muslims at all but radical Islam must be contained or violence will come.
Jun '10
Re: To Those Who Demand A Tougher Stance Toward the Egyptian Mob
Coming late to this donnybrook as well, so I hope I'm not repeating someone else's thought on this, but it strikes me that there is something at the heart of Islam that is antithetical to the American Idea that no amount of shiny examples of capitalism may correct or realign to our way of thought and behavior and it's simply this, Islam literally means "submission" not freedom.
Increasingly in the Middle East, there is no freedom to challenge the tenets of Islam; to entertain or express thoughts that may poke holes in the wisdom of the Prophet; to embrace the idea that women should have equal rights and standing in Islamic society; or freedom to read books or watch films that in any aspect contradict Islamic orthodoxy - without risk of brutal punishment or summary execution.
As radical Islamists snatch the reins of power and influence from once more moderate and enlightened Islamic leaders across every spectrum of life from politics to academia to the arts and sciences then these nations in turmoil run the risk of returning to their medieval mindsets and it will take more than the Golden Arches to demonstrate that freedom trumps submission.
Edited on September 15, 2012 at 6:56amJul '10
Re: To Those Who Demand A Tougher Stance Toward the Egyptian Mob
Another late post.
What would the Middle East look like today if 3 years ago the Iranian population had been given some support - even verbal and sincere - in overthrowing their tyrannical government.
Taken together with
a) 3 1/2 years of failed foreign policy in the region with no real strategy;
b) actions taken in the region that are perceived as weakness;
c) supporting rebels in those countries without understanding who they are even tho there were those who knew and tried to alert the Administration (it's now reported that the rebels in Libya were Al Qaeda)
d) our president cutting off all means of energy independence (with monies given to South American countries to increase their oil production)
and in large part we have what we're witnessing today.
Thank you Mr. President. Oh, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if Iran were behind these coordinated attacks.
May '10
Re: To Those Who Demand A Tougher Stance Toward the Egyptian Mob
Thanks Red, I will do that. Should generate some fun looks on the bus.
Red Feline
I gather you haven't read the Qur'an. The best translation of the Qur'an is by N.J. Dawood, published by Penguin. It is available on Amazon for $7.75. I know it is tedious reading, but it is only just over 400 pages and is well-worth the effort. It makes it clear why the Jihad is still so much part of Islam.
May '10
Re: To Those Who Demand A Tougher Stance Toward the Egyptian Mob
Not resorting to Google but I'm hearing Billy Crystal...? Or maybe Robin Williams?
ConservativeWanderer
Trace Urdan
Tough crowd. · 7 minutes ago
Bonus points if you know what movie that's from (that's from memory, so the quote might not be exact). · 4 hours ago
Edited 4 hours ago
Jul '10
Re: To Those Who Demand A Tougher Stance Toward the Egyptian Mob
I am pretty amazed at all these comments about doing this and doing that. What seems to be missing here is an understanding of who the enemy is. I would submit that without that knowledge, all the rest of this is rather useless. It might well be argued that the reason we are at this dilema is that we really have no clear idea of who or what our enemy is.
We didn't go after communists; we went after communism. In the same way we have to go after islam, not the muslims. Islam is our enemy, and until we get serious about defeating islam - as an ideology, religion, what-have-you, we will not "win" anything.
May '10
Re: To Those Who Demand A Tougher Stance Toward the Egyptian Mob
Western Chauvinist
Trace Urdan
...
We spent over a trillion dollarstrying to make them fear us. ...
No, we did not. We spent over a trillion dollars trying to get them to like us after we "liberated" them from their strong-men. Getting them to fear us would have involved a lot more glass-making in the desert and a lot fewer casualties on our part.
That's a fair point.
But it's not that I don't appreciate the cultural difference but just that it strikes me that we will never be safe until we actually change the culture, and I have not come around to the hopelessness of that task. Not yet, though you all are sadly persuasive.