Throw The Bums Out!
A Catholic priest in Nebraska recently tossed 250 sixth, seventh, and eighth grade students from Mass for not singing loudly enough.
The Rev. James Tiegs does not seem to be getting much support from the Diocese of Omaha for his decision:
“Trying to get children, or for that matter adults, to fully participate in the Mass is a 2,000-year-old issue in the church,” said [Deacon Tim McNeil, chancellor of the archdiocese]. “We would never suggest that 250 children be dismissed in the middle of Mass for not singing a song.”
In his defense, Tiegs said that he “made a judgment call that there was enough disrespect and irreverence going on to dismiss the students ... as a teaching moment.”
The ejection happened during 8:15 Mass on March 24.
Lans Brown, whose sixth-grade daughter had just finished the first reading, recalls Tiegs crossing his arms and asking something to the effect of: “Is singing not cool?”
Tiegs told the principal that the children were dismissed and should go to their classrooms. The Mass continued with 30 or so adults in the church.
Donna Garrett, a parishioner for 21 years whose four children graduated from the school, was among those present.
“I am thinking, ‘Holy cow, open your mouth. If you don't like the song, fake it.' ”
Garrett described Tiegs as pastoral and good to kids. She supports how he carried out the “teaching moment.”
What do you think? Was this a teachable moment that shows "courage"?
Or do you side with the incensed parents who are "paying tuition so their kids can get Catholic instruction — not for the kids to be denied Holy Communion during Lent."
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Comments :
Feb '11
Re: Throw The Bums Out!
Don't know much about the ritual etc, but it sounds like you'da had to be there to say anything intelligent.
Sep '10
Re: Throw The Bums Out!
A couple of questions and some observations. First, these are junior high aged kids. Second, were they singing Gregorian Chant? I'm going to guess that they were not. I'm not aware of any canonical requirement to sing whatever is on offer. There is a big difference between the use of sacred music in a Catholic Mass and the congregational singing of hymns in Protestant denominations. Different theology, different use of music.
If they are singing "modern" Church music, then their reaction is very typical and hardly surprising. I withhold judgement until more facts are in, but I'm suspicious. Something sounds off key.
Oct '10
Re: Throw The Bums Out!
Tiegs is absolutely right. Would that all clergy felt the same way about defending the traditions of the Church. There was once a time when that was the case, but for most of my life such insipid fare as guitar masses and holding hands during the "Our Father" have prevailed.
Oct '10
Re: Throw The Bums Out!
Although Pseudo does make a good point. Were the kids being asked to sing that "Glory and Praise" hippie garbage? If so, their reluctance to sing is much more understandable.
Re: Throw The Bums Out!
Pseudodionysius: A couple of questions and some observations. First, these are junior high aged kids. Second, were they singing Gregorian Chant? I'm going to guess that they were not. I'm not aware of any canonical requirement to sing whatever is on offer. There is a big difference between the use of sacred music in a Catholic Mass and the congregational singing of hymns in Protestant denominations. Different theology, different use of music.
If they are singing "modern" Church music, then their reaction is very typical and hardly surprising. I withhold judgement until more facts are in, but I'm suspicious. Something sounds off key. · Apr 5 at 11:30am
Interesting point, as always, Pseudo. (And, welcome back!) What are your thoughts on the woman's view that:
Fair interpretation or not? I realize we are all armchair quarterbacking, but still ... just curious.
May '10
Re: Throw The Bums Out!
My gut response was to laugh. It reminds me of what the Irish pastor says to his flock at the end of The Quiet Man: "Now, when the Reverend Playfair, good man that he is, comes down the road, I want you all the cheer like Protestants!"
I have always admired Protestants for their joyful celebrations of the Lord. The Catholic Mass has moments that are meant for rejoicing in God's bountiful love, but the general tone of a Mass (at least in the churches I've attended) is contemplative. It's difficult to intersperse unrestrained joy with quiet reflection.
Joy can't be forced. But neither can socialization, yet my parents often forced me to get out of the house and mix with other kids. And you know what? I had fun.
While denying kids the Eucharist is an extreme action and not one I would condone, singing is an action which can open cold hearts and soften stubborn minds. The priest is right to encourage all to sing during the Mass.
Dec '10
Re: Throw The Bums Out!
Ursula Hennessey:
"paying tuition so their kids can get Catholic instruction — not for the kids to be denied Holy Communion during Lent." ·
Getting thrown out of mass is an important part of a catholic education. I went for 13 years and I am 100% in behind the priest. I am upset by others behavior at about half the masses I attend. The students need to be taught respect, that's one of the big selling points of catholic education over public.
Oct '10
Re: Throw The Bums Out!
Ursula Hennessey
Pseudodionysius: A couple of questions and some observations. First, these are junior high aged kids. Second, were they singing Gregorian Chant? I'm going to guess that they were not. I'm not aware of any canonical requirement to sing whatever is on offer. There is a big difference between the use of sacred music in a Catholic Mass and the congregational singing of hymns in Protestant denominations. Different theology, different use of music.
If they are singing "modern" Church music, then their reaction is very typical and hardly surprising. I withhold judgement until more facts are in, but I'm suspicious. Something sounds off key. · Apr 5 at 11:30am
Interesting point, as always, Pseudo. (And, welcome back!) What are your thoughts on the woman's view that:
Fair interpretation or not? I realize we are all armchair quarterbacking, but still ... just curious. · Apr 5 at 11:39am
Are you suggesting some form of liturgical transsubstantiation?
Jun '10
Re: Throw The Bums Out!
I'm not a Catholic so I can't weigh in with any Catholic insights to the singing issue. I will say that in my congregation, I mostly lip sync the hymn-singing, primarily in the interest of not destroying the spiritual feelings of others (my singing voice would be characterized as a screeching monotone).
In my church anyone can be in the choir. Supposedly no one is banned, but I have a feeling if I showed up to choir practice, they would disband the choir rather than allow me to sing in an actual worship service.
May '10
Re: Throw The Bums Out!
Parents raise disrespectful children and when they are called out for it, it's the fault of the person who demanded the respectful behavior. How dare he ask that my child behave in such a setting! The horrors!
To truly carry out the mission of the church, each child should be called before Father Tiegs, be allowed to apologize and receive communion and absolution. "Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that you may be healed."
Jan '11
Re: Throw The Bums Out!
Times have changed. The nuns would just beat us. (Properly so.) And while we're on the topic, may I say that the "Sisters of Mercy" was false advertising, because they had none. At least not with me.
Sep '10
Re: Throw The Bums Out!
At that age I would have welcomed being thrown out of mass. I hated it all. And with some good reason too, crazy nuns, shifting rules - I was indoctrinated pre Ecumenical Council so I was confused when they backtracked on all those sins they were so sure about.
Of course we lip-synched hyms.
When I was really small, I made up sins to tell the priest in confession. I was a pretty good kid and I didn't think he'd believe me if I didn't have something to confess. I figured I probably did something wrong so I made things up. In other words, confession was the catalyst for me tell some of my first lies! By age 13, I developed complete disregard for the nuns and the teachers. They had lost all credibility.
That was a bad time to not believe adults and teachers for me as I went off track. With kids you need to pick your battles.
Today's Catholics probably err the other way. Instead of being too strict, rigid and ,dogmatic they are likely too coddling
It took me decades to re-gain respect for Catholicism and organized religion in general.
Sep '10
Re: Throw The Bums Out!
“The liturgy calls for them to give themselves to the action in order to receive God in return.”
Well, I'll overlook the unintentionally wonky theology whereby the new 4th member of the Trinity (the liturgy) now calls for everyone to "give themselves to the action" as if God's grace has been reduced to a divine pez dispenser. So much for contemplation. I defer to Pope Benedict XVI, back when he was but lowly Cardinal Ratzinger and his excellent Spirit of the Liturgy, U.M. Lang's Turning Toward the Lord and Martin Mosebach's The Heresy of Formlessness when asking why the priest now faces the people, why people no longer kneel to receive communion, why the Mass is no longer sung prayer performed by a schola with the faithful joining in when they are moved to do so, and why the quoted representative conveniently overlooks the 23 other rites in the Catholic Church (Copts? Byzantines? Syrians?) and presumes to speak for even the Eastern rites when laying down liturgical divine writ?
Sorry to be a bit cranky. I just got out of the shower.
Jul '10
Re: Throw The Bums Out!
KC Mulville: Times have changed. The nuns would just beat us. (Properly so.) And while we're on the topic, may I say that the "Sisters of Mercy" was false advertising, because they had none. At least not with me. · Apr 5 at 12:32pm
I believe that the same misnaming requirements that apply to legislative bills apply to the naming of orders.
Sep '10
Re: Throw The Bums Out!
Also, I hope Father has a reputation for wielding the canon law hammer should a manifestly pro-abortion Catholic politician appear at a Mass that he is celebrating.
May '10
Re: Throw The Bums Out!
Ursula Hennessey
Fair interpretation or not? I realize we are all armchair quarterbacking, but still ... just curious. · Apr 5 at 11:39am
As a Lutheran, but one who mostly goes to Catholic mass and receives the sacrament there (let that one sink in...), I note:
As to the kids, they need to show respect and should be evicted if they don't. They can come back later, or go somewhere else.
Sep '10
Re: Throw The Bums Out!
Like most things you don't know if this action was destructive, worthless, spectacular or anything in between. It depends. My sense is that much of the problem of schools today comes from the good intention of not dis-pleasing anyone. Every decision is reviewed and second guessed until any policy is worthless (other than zero tolerance policies which are bad in a different way). Not every action can be disected and understood for what its value is, in a day or week's time. Even if this was worthless the kids will know who presides over the mass, which is better than not knowing anything.
Let a thousand flowers bloom, educational evolution will take care of the rest.
Re: Throw The Bums Out!
You know what? It strikes me as sad--or maybe just plain outrageous--that the default position seems to be to attack the priest. In any parish school--I gather that's what this was--the priest represents the leading authority. The bishop, the parents--all owe him deference, respect, and a wide degree of latitude in running the operation as he sees fit.
For goodness's sake, does anybody believe the trouble with American junior high school students is too much discipline? The parents at that school should give thanks that they can entrust their children to a man who insists on certain standards, including reverence and respectfulness during the holy--yes, holy--mass. Maybe there are facts that have yet to come to light. But on the simple account you've provided here, Ursula, I'd say Fr. Tiegs deserves notes of apology from the students--and of thanks from their parents.
Edited on Apr 5, 2011 at 1:23pmOct '10
Re: Throw The Bums Out!
Peter Robinson: Who knows what actually took place during the mass, but isn't it sad--and maybe even a little outrageous--that the default position seems to be to attack the priest? In any parish church--I gather that's what this was--the priest represents the leading authority. The bishop, the parents--all owe him deference, respect, and a wide degree of latitude in running the operation as he sees fit.
For goodness's sake, does anybody believe the trouble with American junior high school students is too much discipline? The parents at that school should give thanks that they can entrust their children to a man who insists on certain standards, including reverence and respectfulness during the holy--yes, holy--mass. Maybe there are facts that have yet to come to light. But on the simple account you've provided here, Ursula, I'd say Fr. Tiegs deserves notes of apology from the students--and of thanks from their parents. · Apr 5 at 1:15pm
Hear, hear!
May '10
Re: Throw The Bums Out!
Peter, I'm all for discipline, but let's keep in mind that the Eucharist is spiritual nourishment and the center of Catholic life. It's the Body of Christ and so owed deep respect. But denying anyone access is a severe punishment which should be used sparingly.